Add $2K for plane ticket and you can get 5+ animals for the cost of an elk, packaged according to the above pricing. And, you are likely to see something to shoot at, whereas elk hunting might not give you anything besides spectacular country to look over.
Africa does it differently, so it's a little hard to compare. Factor in ~$450/day for all lodging, hunting, guide, tracker, skinner, food, drinks, etc. Then add the trophy fee of the animals you hunt. Little as ~$350 for an Impala to ~$1900 for Kudu.
You can hunt the National forests for Elk for essentially the cost of the license too.
There is no better value in the hunting world than hunting in South Africa. North America is EXPENSIVE! Unless you can hunt for yourself. Hire a guide in NA, and the price skyrockets.
They have a 10 day, six animal pkg., hunting 1x1 for $5325. Cruiser was awesome to hunt with. Great accomadations, meals, and phs. Add in $2300+/- for air fare, and you're there. Only extras are tips/taxidermy. You WILL have a memorable trip.
$150........Passport $300......pre approved gun permit and overnight Afican Sky $2850.......Round from STL to East London $2450.......Dip, Pack, Ship to ATL........10 animals $300.........Broker for shipping release dip and pack crate in ATL $4500........6 animal pacage $800........tip PH $100........tip staff $3300........3 extra animals
Elk tag.......... $555 to $780.....$668 we will use Gas from STL to North NM round trip......$700 Tri State or Vermijo ranch....... $10,000 Cape Skin and process in Raton.....$350 Guide tip....... $1000 Staff Tip....... $100
Spotshooter, I think tt is not 100% on his view...everyone has had different trips to Africa. Each hunter has their own story. For me, the cost in 2012 was $2000 round trip air. The outfit charged $4000 for 5 plains game animals...then I had to add $800 for Dip and pack and customs/shipping...then add the Taxidermy here in the US. So, that week of hunting cost me about $9000 all together. I know two guys who went elk hunting in Colorado, each spent $6000 for an 8 day hunt...they never even saw an elk.
Have Gun, Will Travel. The more dust on the trail, the thicker the soup. Life Member: NRA & VFW & Six Napoleons
Take $3700 off for the extra 4 animals plus $900 for the additional dip and pack then drop a couple hundred or more off the PH tip + staff and this gives you as accurate a number as can be had I promise for a 6 animal PGH
$9950........ = 6 animal PG hunt
No hidden fees unless you add Dr visits for shots and take with you Rx
Personally, I would love to hunt Africa and hope that someday I do.
One of my hang-ups between an Elk vs Africa: meat in the freezer.
I'm sure the meat in Africa is used to feed the camp, villagers, the next group, or as bait but I do like the idea of being able to bring home the meat if I ever get the chance to go on an elk hunt.
That being said, with the information out there I think if I'm going to pay $10,000 I will probably aim for Africa and try to do a DIY or other "budget" elk hunt since there are plenty of resources out there to be successful
I love elk hunting and hunting in North America for all species, and I will continue to do so, but the plain simple truth is that there is really no comparison.
..."I will not tip toe through life, to meet death safely."
For $7,000 in South Africa you should get at least 10 days and at least 5 trophies (more animals if a cull hunt) and that includes air fare.
Plane ticket is $3K + $3500 for 5 plains animals, impala, wildebeast, zebra, warthog, stienbok or Duicker. 10 days. I'll add a Kudu. Gotta do this at least once. IMHO
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
For $7,000 in South Africa you should get at least 10 days and at least 5 trophies (more animals if a cull hunt) and that includes air fare.
Plane ticket is $3K + $3500 for 5 plains animals, impala, wildebeast, zebra, warthog, stienbok or Duicker. 10 days. I'll add a Kudu. Gotta do this at least once. IMHO
The problem I see
You are leaving off several expenses that can't be ignored
42% more
But I highly highly recommend any and all to do it
I shot a 7x7 361 class bull in Canada about 8 years ago. Had all the meat cut by an authorised certified export shop. Us customs denied its entry to the USA at the border crossing.
I lost it all!
www.huntingadventures.net Are you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
Look at tedhorn's posts�most realistic as he has just returned, and didn't forget to add anything in.
Note: The elk hunt at $12K+ is one animal The African hunt is $14K+ and ten animals in a setting that has to be seen to be believed.
There is NO comparison.
Wait, you are leaving something out.
Elk hunt at $12k and is one trip.
Africa if $14k for ten animals and etc. on the FIRST trip only. Then there is the next trip for Cape buffalo, then the next one for sable and more Cape buffalo, then CAR for Lord Derby eland, and then the one to "just to see Cape Town and Victoria Falls" that includes 5 days to hunt kudu, nyala and bushbuck. The fever gets you.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
Elk doesn't have to be that expensive. If you are a decent hunter you can go unguided anywhere in the west except a wyoming wilderness hunt. Even guided the going rate is about $5000 + the cost of a tag so figure $5750. Domestic airfare is cheap and driving is about the same but you can take your own gear and camp.
I know lots of out of state hunters that do an elk hunt for less than $2500 with everything included. Yes, you only get one animal but there are no malaria or other infectious disease concerns and the list could go on.
You can buy OTC tags at a lot of indian reservations for less than a grand if you want too. Most of those are not for trophy bulls but some are. Do your research.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
One of the problems with elk is that unless you draw a tag for a decent trophy area, hunting public land is a crap-shoot, especially if you're looking for "just a decent 6-point bull," as many first-time hunters put it, since they know they probably won't kill a B&C the first time out.
Probably because of the Internet and hunting magazines, they think any area offers a chance at a good bull if they just work hard. But they apparently don't look at overall success rates, especially on public land, where it can be great elk country but if the weather fails to cooperate it can also suck.
Yeah, there are ways to have a good chance "a decent 6-point bull," but the surest way is to pay closer to $10,000 than $5000 for a guided hunt on private land. And right there you're talking an African safari. The second-surest way is to draw a tag for a good trophy area, but even that doesn't always work out.
There are no guarantees in most African hunting either, but the numbers of animals over there have always been a LOT higher than elk density on typical National Forests in the Rockies.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Most of the cheaper African hunts being talked about here are on game farms, no? And to compare a game farm hunt to a vermejo ranch elk hunt is a bit like comparing apples oranges.
Most of the cheaper African hunts being talked about here are on game farms, no? And to compare a game farm hunt to a vermejo ranch elk hunt is a bit like comparing apples oranges.
Compare the Vermejo rates to a moderate safari cost. I could do two hunts in Africa for the cost of a Vermejo hunt.
As to Scott's question, more means a vast variety of animals, all different in character. Some like this; others are happy with one. I worked just as hard for my kudu as I have for any of my elk, except for the climbing. A bushbuck will give a hunter fits and is no pushover. And, things don't end at the first BANG in Africa.
I DO love to eat elk, however!
Hunt with Class and Classics
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Acquit v. t. To render a judgment in a murder case in San Francisco... EQUAL, adj. As bad as something else. Ambrose Bierce “The Devil's Dictionary”
Well, as JJHack pointed out, you can't always bring elk meat home--even if you hunt in Canada! Though I have never had any problem bringing game meat home across either the Canadian or Mexican borders. Have brought whitetail, mule deer, caribou, elk and moose meat from Canada many times, and deer from Mexico. Have even brought gamebirds back from South America.
You can bring meat back from Africa if it's been cured and sealed, which essentially means commercially packaged biltong (jerky) or canned meat, and not much of either. Though I did smuggle some homemade, unsealed buffalo biltong back inside my hunting boots many years ago, though that was before the general use of "biltong beagles" (or other breeds) in U.S. airports.
If you want to bring home meat from African animals, the place to go is Texas. In fact I do believe Texas was invented to make exotic meat-hunting possible. Yeah, most of the game will be fenced, but not all.
If you mostly want elk meat, there are many ways to go on an relatively inexpensive hunt. But most non-residents want "a decent 6-point" or even bigger, and many don't care about the meat. A very few are mostly interested in the meat on their first hunt, but for others it takes a while to reach that point, usually when there's no more room for elk antlers in their home--which may only take one shoulder-mount.
I don't have much interest in 6-point antlers anymore, and two years ago went hunting for the first legal bull in range. It turned out to be a pretty good 6-point, but I was lucky enough to be hunting on a ranch....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Elk doesn't have to be that expensive. If you are a decent hunter you can go unguided anywhere in the west except a wyoming wilderness hunt. Even guided the going rate is about $5000 + the cost of a tag so figure $5750. Domestic airfare is cheap and driving is about the same but you can take your own gear and camp.
I know lots of out of state hunters that do an elk hunt for less than $2500 with everything included. Yes, you only get one animal but there are no malaria or other infectious disease concerns and the list could go on.
You can buy OTC tags at a lot of indian reservations for less than a grand if you want too. Most of those are not for trophy bulls but some are. Do your research.
The dollar amounts I posted was an attempt to try and compare as accurate as possible apple to apple
Fully outfitted with all meals and lodging plus all transportation. Just bring your rifle and clothes.
Yes you can hunt elk inexpensively and I still do. The diy hunts out of a tent are the most rewarding withoutout a doubt IMO but that being said I have also wrote a big check for the easy route...... I hunted Vermijo in 2008 and the T-O a year later
As a hunting experience there is no comparison.....African or US because they truly are different but each is great in their own ways
The one true fact that can't be disputed......hunting out of state or out of country will cost you money
I have hunted elk about 10 times, mostly archery. Some have been public land and some private ranch where there were good opportunities at 300+ inch bulls. I have not hunted the real high end $12,000 plus types of hunts for elk.
And I am headed to Africa this Monday, for my third safari. All in, this safari will cost in the high teens because I am after buffalo. That buffalo essentially doubles the cost of this hunt This is an eight day hunt and I hope to arrow 5-6 animals. Elk hunting is fun, but for me, the economic and experience value of a safari completely out weighs an elk hunt of any type. Each to his own.
For sure, MORE doesn't necessarily mean better, but it also doesn't mean worse.
I've gone on many multi-species big game hunts in North America, in fact usually do so every year within a half-hour of my house here in Montana, where encountering a whitetail or mule deer, elk or black bear is a distinct possibility, and there's also a chance of running into a wolf or mountain lion, all of which are legal game. But have also had tags for two or more species in my pocket during more than one hunt in Alaska and Canada--or even in other western states, whether deer and elk or deer and pronghorn. Have even hunted both whitetails and mule deer on the same hunt in Alberta. It ain't exactly painful.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
For sure, MORE doesn't necessarily mean better, but it also doesn't mean worse.
I've gone on many multi-species big game hunts in North America, in fact usually do so every year within a half-hour of my house here in Montana, where encountering a whitetail or mule deer, elk or black bear is a distinct possibility, and there's also a chance of running into a wolf or mountain lion, all of which are legal game. But have also had tags for two or more species in my pocket during more than one hunt in Alaska and Canada--or even in other western states, whether deer and elk or deer and pronghorn. Have even hunted both whitetails and mule deer on the same hunt in Alberta. It ain't exactly painful.
I agree with you John.
I'm not sure why some on this thread are acting so dense. Its a simple concept:
1) In North America, multi-species hunts are becoming more rare and more costly. There is no guarantee that you even see a legal animal, let alone have an opportunity on a legal animal that you have licences for. I had a friend that went with a reputable outfitter for caribou in the Northwest Territories. Licenced for 2, didn't see one that they could harvest. The herd changed their route and the outfitter didn't move to the new route. I saw a recent ad in the Safari Club newsletter that advertised a 3 day hunt for whitetails in Saskatchewan for $6500. The hunter that goes on that may never see a whitetail, let alone get a chance at a buck that Saskatchewan is famous for.
2) In Africa, at least on private land, you will find a nice trophy and be able to harvest it. The animal may not be what you set out to harvest, but the opportunity presented itself and you were allowed to take it. That is a nice feature of an ala carte hunt. Opportunity is only limited by the landowner restrictions and your pocketbook.
For a price comparison, compare the above whitetail hunt with my recent safari in South Africa. My trophy fees for 11 animals was about $6500. My total hunt cost (including taxes and trophy fees) for my wife and I was just over $10,000 for 10 days.
Before you bleat about the cost of airfare check this out. If I wanted to fly from Calgary to Saskatoon for the above noted whitetail hunt, the cost is $650. I flew from Calgary to East London South Africa for $1770. Doesn't make sense does it? Given the distance travelled, the airfare to SA is a bargain.
Some of you are going on about "its game fenced". So what? I hunt every year in Alberta on private land. It is almost all fenced. It is not game fenced, but the fences DO restrict travel for some species (pronghorn) and young of the year. In South Africa "game proof" fences do not mean that all animals are restricted to that property. Hotfire had eland. The eland decided they wanted to be somewhere else, so they left. Sometimes they come back, but mostly they are gone. On the farms I was on, I found several locations where animals crawled under or through "game proof fences". Also, these fences NEVER impacted the hunting of the critters. If they are hunted, they are wild and use the terrain and cover just like a whitetail here. If you think getting close enough to a springbok, black wildebeest on the plains is easy, think again. I was belly crawling though 10" high grass getting with in range. Ditto kudu etc. You may find them and see them, doesn't mean you are getting a shot at them. Blesbok on Hotfire act more like bighorn sheep. Good luck if they are positioned on that slope and the wind isn't cooperative. Maybe some shooters could make that 800yd shot, but I doubt it in those common high winds at that altitude.
I will make one point about opportunity. In Alberta, I last held a buck antelope tag in 2008. I'll be lucky to get a tag by 2018. It took me 5 years to get a mule deer buck tag. It will take my second daughter 6 or more years to get a MD buck tag. (Alberta now has nearly 4 million people and we have had some rough winters lately) Hey, I'll go to Silver Sage Outfitters and buy one of they hunts/tags. Nope, can't do that, I'm an Alberta resident. I'm not allowed to do that. Then cost. 3 day rifle antelope - $4200. Pretty pricey.
So is African hunting better? Yes and no. Even though it is a relative bargain, it is still pricey. I can't afford to do it every year, course I never thought I could do it until I started pricing it out. Everything JB says about elk hunting is correct. I've always done it myself, usually in areas where I am restricted as to where I can hunt them. They sure do learn the sunrise/sunset tables and where they are safe. I've spent a lot of dawns watching elk that jumped the fence onto no hunting property just before legal light or watched as they waited to leave the sanctuary until after legal light.
But I am primarily a deer and antelope hunter. It chokes me that because of more big game hunters in Alberta, I seldom have a MD buck tag or ANY antelope tag anymore.
So, I came back from South Africa on May 30th. Would I go back? I'm already plotting when we can afford to go. My non-hunting wife is the same. WE can't wait to go again. Our hosts are like our new best friends. They'll be here in January for the Africa Show and I can't wait. I was going to "hunter host" him for mule deer, but we are no longer able to enter a non resident alien in the draws. If he wants a MD, he'll have to use a guide.
To me, the better value is hunting in Africa. However, I recognize that if you haven't shot an elk etc., that may be your priority and all the power to you.
The terms, 'Cost', and 'Value', often get attached to hunts and their comparisons. It's not an apples to apples comparison, it's not even apples to oranges- it's apples to airplanes. By that I mean- within broad limits, a hunt, whether it's for elk in the Rockies, or plains game in Africa, or anything else anywhere else in the world, is a very subjective experience. It's not even about how much it cost, or how many trophies end up on the wall, but it is often measured in terms of the experience. Now- if your measure of success, given that you have shelled out a fair amount of money for your hunt, is absolutely a head or ten on the wall, then you have valued the success of the experience in those terms. If, however, you enjoyed the hunt, the trip, the side excursions to sightsee, or take in the local culture, or share the experience with a spouse or family, then the hunt or trip takes on a different meaning, and the memories and shared experience become of prime importance. I've had my share of guided, unsuccessful hunts, mostly for elk. They were unsuccessful because I chose not to shoot small bulls, not because of lack of opportunity. If I were to value those hunts in terms of dollars spent vs. meat in the freezer, or horns on the wall, those elk became some very high-priced game, cost-wise. Some years ago, I went on an Alaskan Brown Bear hunt, in the Aleutian Island chain of SW Alaska. After 9 days, we found a 10+ foot brownie, which I was fortunate enough to take. Upon arriving home, one of my friends, upon seeing the pictures and finally the mounted bear, decided he had to have one for himself. Over the next few years, he went on two long, and unsuccessful, bear hunts, both with reputable outfitters. Completely disillusioned with the experience, he basically gave up on hunting altogether. Obviously, his cost-per-inch of bear hide was infinite!
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
Agree. A hunt is a complete experience. I can say that an African plains game hunt and a DIY elk hunt in the Rockies are two completely different experiences. They are both fantastic! But they are great for very different reasons. Africa, to me, is about experiencing something I had only read about, about seeing massive numbers of game and countless variety. It's about bourbon around a fire at night, riding around in the bakke with the PH, stalking in a land where you are certainly not the top of the food chain, learning a craft from the PH, judging animals and simply seeing a different part of the world. DIY Elk in the Rockies is brutally hard, the altitude, the dry air, the steepness, the distances, living in a tent and eating minimal meals, fatigue, and then if you shoot something it gets real hard. A successful elk hunt is a tremendous reward.
I really think they each have their place. I can tell you that as I get older there is going to come a day when sleeping in a bed and having trackers and skinners doing the hard work will have great appeal.
I can tell you that as I get older there is going to come a day when sleeping in a bed and having trackers and skinners doing the hard work will have great appeal.
Yeah I got there about 10 years ago. My horse wranglin', Rocky trekkin' days are over. Give me a cocktail and warm bed at the end of the day!
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all. Jack O'Connor
Agree. A hunt is a complete experience. I can say that an African plains game hunt and a DIY elk hunt in the Rockies are two completely different experiences. They are both fantastic! But they are great for very different reasons. Africa, to me, is about experiencing something I had only read about, about seeing massive numbers of game and countless variety. It's about bourbon around a fire at night, riding around in the bakke with the PH, stalking in a land where you are certainly not the top of the food chain, learning a craft from the PH, judging animals and simply seeing a different part of the world. DIY Elk in the Rockies is brutally hard, the altitude, the dry air, the steepness, the distances, living in a tent and eating minimal meals, fatigue, and then if you shoot something it gets real hard. A successful elk hunt is a tremendous reward.
I really think they each have their place. I can tell you that as I get older there is going to come a day when sleeping in a bed and having trackers and skinners doing the hard work will have great appeal.
Although I have never hunted Elk, I would hunt South-Africa without taking any trophies back. Take excellent pictures and have them enlarged and framed, as for me it is about the experience and not the trophies we take back (there you can subtract quite a bit). If I look at the prices mentioned for Elk, I would rather hunt 4 or 5 animals around here with the right guy, as 5 animals vs 1 would simplify the decision for me. I am not for one moment saying an Elk hunt would not be an exceptional experience, I just think you might be able to double the experience in South-Africa.
I more than struggle gauging the quality or value of a hunt on the number of animals taken. Nothing tough about killing plains game in Africa. Elk, on the other hand, will be more than a smidge more physical and challenging to the point you may come home elkless. Hunting...
Although I have never hunted Elk, I would hunt South-Africa without taking any trophies back. Take excellent pictures and have them enlarged and framed, as for me it is about the experience and not the trophies we take back. If I look at the prices mentioned for Elk, I would rather hunt 4 or 5 animals around here with the right guy, as 5 animals vs 1 would simplify the decision for me. I am not for one moment saying an Elk hunt would not be an exceptional experience, I just think you might be able to double the experience in South-Africa.
Pieter
Pieter, that's what my mate and I did in Namibia 3 years ago.
I came away with a lot of photos, one set of warthog tusks and an awful lot of memories of the hunting and the good times we had.
The most powerful memory is late on the afternoon of our last day when the 'cruiser scrabbled up a red dune and the PH shut it down on the top. Both my mate and I were a bit puzzled at this, Arno, our PH said, "There's something we have to do." He walked to the rear of the vehicle and pulled a six pack of Tafel out of the cooler, handed a bottle of each of us and added, "Before you leave Namibia, you've got to sit on the top of a Kalahari dune, drink beer and watch the sun go down."
I more than struggle gauging the quality or value of a hunt on the number of animals taken. Nothing tough about killing plains game in Africa. Elk, on the other hand, will be more than a smidge more physical and challenging to the point you may come home elkless. Hunting...
Bold statement to make, that there is nothing tough about hunting plains game. Guess it might have been a place where you hunted and how you hunted animals but I can assure you from the years I have hunted South-Africa I have hunted plenty of places that was pretty hard. To ad to that I am pretty fit and very used to being out in the field. But as I mentioned, it depends on where and with whom you hunted.
Africa, hands down. It's not even close. Been there and done both , several times. I am planning another African trip, yet I have no interest in hunting another elk. In fact, now that I think about it, I haven't wanted to hunt elk since I went to Africa the first time.
Well big game hunting never was a "cheap" sport! I when to Kenya in 1971 instead of getting a European Sports car, took the only suitable rifle I had at the time a Remington 700, Spent a month and had a General License in my pocket, shot two head of game every day for almost a month. It was a good bit of money back then, now you would have to be some kind of wealthy to do it and you would have to go to TZ. On a per shot basis, Africa is a good deal, these days when you look at some of the other stuff that goes into it, I don't think I would bother putting up with the Airlines TSA customs, and the rest of the junk that nobody talks about, let alone supporting a bunch of black thugs too boot, but to each his own! I think I would rather hunt Elk in the deranges just South and to the East of Yellow Stone, expensive yes, the 30 mile horse ride to where you hunt price less!
Last edited by gmsemel; 07/20/14.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
[quote=EdM]I more than struggle gauging the quality or value of a hunt on the number of animals taken. Nothing tough about killing plains game in Africa. Elk, on the other hand, will be more than a smidge more physical and challenging to the point you may come home elkless. Hunting... [/quote
As to elk hunting, I've only been 3 times, but I have several local buddies who frequent places like Chama Land and Cattle, the Mescalero Res, and another lodge hunt I can't remember the name of offhand. They aren't what I would consider overly strenuous, as they usually have a nice 6x6 within a couple of days...for around $15k I might add. My latest 12 animal hunt in Namibia was less money, and I couldn't fathom having more fun spending money, unless I could afford a mule deer hunt on the Jicarilla, but that ain't gonna happen. Namibia is off the charts fun.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Amen brother. I quit hunting elk 11 years ago. People ask why? And they are shocked when I say I don't EVER want to see another one of those big foggers dead on the ground!
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
Amen brother. I quit hunting elk 11 years ago. People ask why? And they are shocked when I say I don't EVER want to see another one of those big foggers dead on the ground!
Time and injury (destroyed my ankle and blew out my back leaving nerve damage in the other leg) are quite effective at persuading me that I am a deer and antelope hunter. Even then, I'm trying to be more choosey where we shoot the MD to make the recovery easier. I have also started going gutless on the deer if I can't get the truck close to them. Gamecarts and sleds help immensely.
In Africa, it was nice watching some one else do all the grunt work for a change. Don't get me wrong, I still helped a bit and I carried my own rifle. But it was nice heading for supper while some one else slaved in the skinning shed. Refreshing.
Hunted elk all my life here in Western Washington. Now that I am old I prefer hunting Africa. Much more comfortable and don't have to deal with packing out skinning and such. But to be fair both kinds of hunts are too different. Oranges to apples.
Elk tag.......... $555 to $780.....$668 we will use Gas from STL to North NM round trip......$700 Tri State or Vermijo ranch....... $10,000 Cape Skin and process in Raton.....$350 Guide tip....... $1000 Staff Tip....... $100
One animal..........= $12,818
You're an amazing tipper!!... Wanna come hunt Coues Deer in AZ?
I have never hunted Elk or been to Africa yet. However my gut tells me I would probably rather do Africa once as to hunt elk 10 times. Africa just seems to be calling me.
I'm 100% in the camp of being fiscally responsible. The guy I shared camp with in Namibia this past May was a pretty wise man, and a veteran of 28 safaris. He told me this, which I happen to agree with:
When you're young you have no money. When you finally have some money, you usually have no time. When you finally have some money and time, you likely don't have your health.
Moral to the story.....if you have some extra money and have a little extra time, go for it. Africa is a very special place to experience for a big game hunter.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Couldn't agree more, I got it out of my system ( as best I could) by the time I was 55, and glad I did. Physically, theres some of it I couldn't do anymore. ( 10-12 mile days after buffalo spring to mind instantly�)
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
For one animal, an Elk hunt is tough to beat! It seems to be forgotten here that you can elk hunt for very little money as well. Basically a license, camping gear and transportation to the area of choice. Odds of killing are lower of course, but the hunting is still fantastic. Once you get to know an area, the odds get much better.
There used to be an insufferable DICK named Greenhorn who used to post here from Montana. Arguably the most successful HUNTER on this website. Every year he did a LOT of legwork and scouting and shot some incredible animals, all on his own. He HATED anyone who hunted Africa, but then again, ignorance was probably the issue. I'm sure if one were to live in a game and land rich state like Montana or Alaska, DIY hunts would be a lot more productive. Here in Florida/northern GA is pretty easy to go and shoot a hog or a deer, but the availability of access is nowhere near what it is out west. For a guy like me, guided hunts are practically my only option for serious trophy hunting and in that regard, Africa; in my opinion, has no equal.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Jorge, living in the west is no panacea. We have access issues and overcrowding of public areas too.
People like Greenhorn are unique and there are few of them. I have never had the budget for gas to drive to my zone (about 100 miles) and time to spend hours/days scouting. I have a family and when they were young, I helped care for them. Now that they are older and hunting with me, I find that school sports and their events help keep me busy. My job is very regimented and I can't drop things at the drop of the hat. My time for scouting is nearly zilch. I wish it were different.
Where Greenhorn rubs you wrong is that he assumes that because he lives in a rural area with quick access to scout, and the time (whether single, or with a very understanding spouse (or soon to be single) and a job which allows this extra time), then everybody should be able to do it, and if you can't/won't you are less of a hunter than him.
Also, in his experience, a guide is not required to bring great success. At this point in his hunting experience, he is not ready to consider other opportunities. And he may never change his preferences, and that is OK. Different strokes for different folks.
Once he gets older, or breaks a leg (that doesn't heal well), blows out a back etc, or maybe just gets a hankering for something different, then his attitude may change. Once he begins to explore other options, he will realize that he will need a guide/PH in other locales, that animals are different, and that there are similarities in game and terrain, there are differences. Not necessarily better, or worse, just different.
While I will continue to hunt deer and antelope, and the odd elk or moose in Alberta when I draw tags, I have been to Africa once. I am plotting to go again. The hunting is similar, but different, ditto the terrain. The variety of animals is amazing. The opportunity is amazing. The company (PH) was fantastic. It was nice hunting when I wasn't freezing my fingers (often the case in Alberta).
Being cheap, and realizing my physical limitations (rebuilt ankle on the right, nerve damage on the left that leaves it weak (bad back injury)), Africa is the answer for me. I can handle the terrain, although where I was, it was more mountainous and rocky than I expected. However, my trekking poles helped me overcome that. I may be slow, but I get there every time! When I compare pricing of GUIDED hunts in North America to Africa, there is no contest. My dollar goes a lot further in Africa. I get to hunt with my friend. In North America, I can neither afford a guided hunt for most species and on many, like sheep or elk, moose or caribou in some locations, if I am honest with myself, I can't handle the terrain anymore.
While I admire Greenhorn for his effort and dedication, I realize that I can never be him. That kind of effort and ability has passed me by.
For me, for something different, I will be heading to Africa.
Greenhorn rubbed me the wrong way, because he was an insufferable ASS whe it came to expressing his views about those of us who hunt Africa and are not fortunate to have the access (and skills) he obviously has. A few other guys here are successful as well and don't come across like that. Then there's Big Stick of Course, the ass of asses. I have a friend who lives up near Thompson Falls with GREAT access to hunting lands and he does very wll too (with a bow), only he's not a complete orifice like these guys.
Last edited by jorgeI; 07/28/14.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
If you are one that pretty much needs to get on an airplane to hunt elk, then Africa becomes more attractive. The 2 posts preceding this one by Jorge and JG pretty much spell it out. If you live in Elk country, have time to scout and know the country, then it's a no brainer to do elk. On the other hand, I don't, and when it comes to considering $15k+ for the White Mnt. Apache hunt for elk or Nambia/RSA/ Zambia for 8-10 animals, I'm going to Africa.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
Greenhorn rubbed me the wrong way, because he was an insufferable ASS whe it came to expressing his views about those of us who hunt Africa and are not fortunate to have the access (and skills) he obviously has. A few other guys here are successful as well and don't come across like that. Then there's Big Stick of Course, the ass of asses. I have a friend who lives up near Thompson Falls with GREAT access to hunting lands and he does very wll too (with a bow), only he's not a complete orifice like these guys.
I hear you. The Campfire is still not as bizarre as Alberta Outdoorsmen. Can hardly stomach that site for all the fighting, criticism and self proclaimed Johnny Super Hunters. Can't seem to have legitimate discussions without all of the above. Of course there are plenty of stupid questions: is the 22mag enough for deer? Or people who post, "look at me, I went to Namibia and shot all these animals and my Berger bullets worked great. I only used an average of 4 shots per critter (I'm exaggerating a bit)". THEN the person gets snotty when people disagree and say that it doesn't sound like the Bergers worked that well. Well the Partitions only shot 3shot 0.75 groups, the Bergers made me more confident because they shot into 0.50 groups. You can't convince them that there is nothing wrong with the Partition group. They're all about accuracy only.
Anyways, At this point of my life, if I had to hire a guide for elk, or go to Africa, it would be Africa for me.
And as for the Greenhorn thing. Yes, no doubt he's a real hunter. But he should be more receptive to others that are not ( for whatever reason) able to get his level of experience. Ive done the Greenhorn thing, climbed plenty-o-mountains and packed plenty-o-game off of them. Ive done the Africa thing-a lot-with nary a high fence in sight and PLENTY of miles logged on the desert boots. Some animals were easy,some definitely were not.Some wanted to kill me back, some did not. As age and old injuries come to haunt, it is slowly but surely getting more comfort oriented,with less output of energies. This does not seem to be an optional program. I hope the Greenhorns of the world embrace it as it descends upon them�. If his or anyone else's opinions are based on wealthy, enabled, and entitled feeling 'hunters' who measure success in body counts and horn scores�.I'm with him on that! Seen some truly "Ugly Americans" going on Safari.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
I always considered Greenhorn and Scenarshooter the real deal. After years and years of squatting up and down a gozillion times, 4 knee surgeries, arthritic knees.....my days of hauling azzz up and down our aoudad country, or high mountains, are pretty much gone I'm afraid. When I go, I go slowly nowadays!
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
I remember watching the movie "Hatari" when it first came out. I wanted more than anything to go to Africa and hunt. Over 50 years later, I still haven't been to Africa. I don't see it happening either. I wouldn't know a Dik Dik from a Lesser Koodoo, so I would have to have labels on the mounts when I hung them in the house.
I continue to shoot elk because they are closer than Africa and the money I would spend on a Safari, I put into old Winchesters and Sakos. When the day comes I can't get out at all, I figure I could sell the guns to keep from starving before I could sell a Dik Dik...
And as for the Greenhorn thing. Yes, no doubt he's a real hunter. But he should be more receptive to others that are not ( for whatever reason) able to get his level of experience. Ive done the Greenhorn thing, climbed plenty-o-mountains and packed plenty-o-game off of them. Ive done the Africa thing-a lot-with nary a high fence in sight and PLENTY of miles logged on the desert boots. Some animals were easy,some definitely were not.Some wanted to kill me back, some did not. As age and old injuries come to haunt, it is slowly but surely getting more comfort oriented,with less output of energies. This does not seem to be an optional program. I hope the Greenhorns of the world embrace it as it descends upon them�. If his or anyone else's opinions are based on wealthy, enabled, and entitled feeling 'hunters' who measure success in body counts and horn scores�.I'm with him on that! Seen some truly "Ugly Americans" going on Safari.
Plenty of "ugly Americans" hunting in the states as well. I'll be sixty this year, but still manage and can keep up with even the youngest of guides. That's not my issue. He painted all those who hunt africa with the same brush, and I can unequivocally say, if I lived where he does and had that access, I'd be doing it as well. Still, give me an African hunt any day. That is my preference and just as I don't disparage anyone who does everything DIY, the courtesies should be reciprocal.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Greenhorn is definitely the real deal and a total DIY guy but I don't put much stock in someone's opinion until they've experienced it first-hand.
I hunt like hell here in Montana and do it on my own as well.
One of the things I like best about hunting in Africa is I CAN DO IT IN MAY/JUNE/JULY/AUGUST when there is no hunting going on here in Montana.
I love the guys who love to hunt but say they don't have any interest in going to Africa.
If you love to hunt, you are going to frickin' love Africa! (Thanks to Ingwe I'll be working until I'm 105 YO)
Yeah, I like doing it on my own but the PH's I've hunted with in Africa have been a hell of a lot of fun to hunt with and they like hunting as much as I do.
I'm here to tell you that contrary to some popular beliefs, hunting in Africa ain't shooting fish in a barrel and it is challenging and fun as hell.
You can be assured I'll be back in Africa first chance I get and still hunting the hell out of Montana from Sept-Jan and April-May.
Greenhorn is definitely the real deal and a total DIY guy but I don't put much stock in someone's opinion until they've experienced it first-hand.
I hunt like hell here in Montana and do it on my own as well.
One of the things I like best about hunting in Africa is I CAN DO IT IN MAY/JUNE/JULY/AUGUST when there is no hunting going on here in Montana.
I love the guys who love to hunt but say they don't have any interest in going to Africa.
If you love to hunt, you are going to frickin' love Africa! (Thanks to Ingwe I'll be working until I'm 105 YO)
Yeah, I like doing it on my own but the PH's I've hunted with in Africa have been a hell of a lot of fun to hunt with and they like hunting as much as I do.
I'm here to tell you that contrary to some popular beliefs, hunting in Africa ain't shooting fish in a barrel and it is challenging and fun as hell.
You can be assured I'll be back in Africa first chance I get and still hunting the hell out of Montana from Sept-Jan and April-May.
Greenhorn IS the real deal, and I said that repeatedly. Fish, spot on.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
You can be the "real deal' without being an insufferable, condescending know-it-all that spits sour grapes at everybody else. I can envy a guy who has the time and the locale to scout, to set up camps, and to hunt extensively. Sounds like fun, but don't rain on my parade because you can do it your way and I do it my way. I've made a lot friends and many good memories "paying" to hunt.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
You can be the "real deal' without being an insufferable, condescending know-it-all that spits sour grapes at everybody else. I can envy a guy who has the time and the locale to scout, to set up camps, and to hunt extensively. Sounds like fun, but don't rain on my parade because you can do it your way and I do it my way. I've made a lot friends and many good memories "paying" to hunt.
Yup, agree with both you and Jorge in that regard.
I can hunt elk on my own property, for both bulls and cows without being drawn. Big whoop-di-doo. Hunting is 90% location and 10% everything else.
The best and most successful hunters will find and gain access to the best areas available to him. That might be by walking his tail off, or by just buying the place, or researching and travelling to the best States, provinces and zones. It could be as simple as an accident of birth, or a willingness to beg for access.
Just like fishing, an average fisherman will do great on a great lake. Likely better than a "great" fisherman on a poor lake or at a bad time. You have to wonder just how "great" the guy actually is if he's in the wrong place at the wrong time to begin with.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
I can take a Bull and a Cow on Public land in Colorado for less than $2,000 if I don't mount the bull, split gas/cabin rental and do my own butchering.
I make the trip every year with a regular group and average a little better than an animal a year with some 2 animal years and some zeros. I'm running low in the freezer right now but hope to re-stock in early November.
So Africa isn't one elk trip for me it is at least 4 in trade. But I'm planning to make at least one plains game trip before I call it quits. The wife can tag along on a South African ranch hunt so it would be a nice change for her - no way would she enjoy 15 degrees and blowing snow at 8000' after a 2 mile climb.
The difference is that instead of maybe getting an elk some years you will almost certainly take somewhere between 5 and a dozen animals. They may not be the ones you set out for, or something you've heard of before. Your best trophies may not be for the animals you wanted the most. Your most vivid memories may not even be hunting related.
Take your wife, some of my most memorable hunts are the ones my wife came with me.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
The difference is that instead of maybe getting an elk some years you will almost certainly take somewhere between 5 and a dozen animals. They may not be the ones you set out for, or something you've heard of before. Your best trophies may not be for the animals you wanted the most. Your most vivid memories may not even be hunting related.
Take your wife, some of my most memorable hunts are the ones my wife came with me.
very true. My wife and I just got back. She had a ball. she killed 4 animals, I killed 7. she was a trooper. hiked the hills. walked, ran, crawled, slid her way through the bushes, thorns, and mud and killed a zebra, impala, blesbok, and caracal. I was more proud of her kills than mine.
There are people who'd rather have 55K new truck instead of decent used vehicle. Or spend the $$$ on new bass boat.
Or have one dozen or two dozen "deer" rifles, half dozen shotguns, etc.
Ever go out skeet or trap shooting? Some of those guys are shooting over/under shotguns that could easily pay for an African safari. Plus they usually have a decent collection of them to boot!
It's just what are your priorities and what important to you in most circumstances.
I've know a few hunters who due to lack of upland birds hunting or only able to harvest one big game a year (whitetail) that have taken up competitive shooting sports such as high power or 3-gun. Or as mentioned previous have become addicted to trap or skeet.
Others rather varmint and predator hunt as the seasons are generally longer and one can get more shooting in one year than in life time of big game hunting (perhaps exaggerating a little but not by much)
Here's couple bulls some insufferable dick and his son nailed last fall to the tune of about $50 in MT. Apparently this dick "hate anyone who's hunted Africa"
The salami and brats cost a bit to have done, but I'm still eating it. along with meat from about a dozen other animals we brought home on weekend trips last fall with our sub $200 license budget in Montana. My twelve year old arrowed a 6X6 bull at 2 yards, nailed a stud pronghorn buck, 2 tom turkeys, a 6.5' black bear, and a 5X5 whitetail, not to mention some upland birds and fishing. Montana safari is tough to beat, but I'm sure Africa is better for some like hatari and Jorgi.
There used to be an insufferable DICK named Greenhorn who used to post here from Montana. Arguably the most successful HUNTER on this website. Every year he did a LOT of legwork and scouting and shot some incredible animals, all on his own. He HATED anyone who hunted Africa, but then again, ignorance was probably the issue. I'm sure if one were to live in a game and land rich state like Montana or Alaska, DIY hunts would be a lot more productive. Here in Florida/northern GA is pretty easy to go and shoot a hog or a deer, but the availability of access is nowhere near what it is out west. For a guy like me, guided hunts are practically my only option for serious trophy hunting and in that regard, Africa; in my opinion, has no equal.
You are one HELL of a hunter, I've always said that, I don't think I've ever seen anyone here as successful as you and you are indeed fortunate to live where you do, but your views on ALL who hunt Africa, and the way you express it, I think I described it well. That said, congratulations again to you and your son.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Exact nail on the head. It is about one's priorities and what floats their boat. I had a close friend who makes a great deal more than I ask me how I could afford to buy a piece of land that I had bought. I answered "you don't really want to know, it will hurt your feelings. Think about it before you make me tell you." A month later she demanded I tell her. We went down their budget: 1. Vehicles- Them- $1300/mo for 2 new ones. Us- $0. We always paid cash for used. 2. Eating out- Them- ate out almost every night- her figures once added up for the good meals and junk meals..Over $2k/month Us- less than $200/month. much less. 3. Vacations- They did 4 per year....them- over $20K per year Us- about $1K per year, some years..lol. 4. Sports- them- spent well over $10K for LSU weekends. Us- Watched our team on TV.
I told her "I could go thru the rest of your budget, but she looked like she was in shock and teary looking. Then I dropped the bomb on her. I told her I was paying $610 per month for the cabin/100 acres of hunting land. Less than the price of 1 of their car payments.
Today? We still drive 2 decent looking but older car and truck. We still don't go out to eat much. We still don't throw money away. Now, though, we do a big vacation every year and we can afford stuff and have stuff that they still can't because they spent 20 years spending their money on expendables. oh well.
Originally Posted by leomort
I guess it depends on what one's priorities are.
There are people who'd rather have 55K new truck instead of decent used vehicle. Or spend the $$$ on new bass boat.
Or have one dozen or two dozen "deer" rifles, half dozen shotguns, etc.
Ever go out skeet or trap shooting? Some of those guys are shooting over/under shotguns that could easily pay for an African safari. Plus they usually have a decent collection of them to boot!
It's just what are your priorities and what important to you in most circumstances.
I've know a few hunters who due to lack of upland birds hunting or only able to harvest one big game a year (whitetail) that have taken up competitive shooting sports such as high power or 3-gun. Or as mentioned previous have become addicted to trap or skeet.
Others rather varmint and predator hunt as the seasons are generally longer and one can get more shooting in one year than in life time of big game hunting (perhaps exaggerating a little but not by much)
Big element of men/women here in the USA who want to cut to the chase and buy the outdoor experience. That's fine. They have money and they use that money to try to get a similar experience as someone who has put in their time/effort to master the outdoors. Guys like me make a good living catering those wanting to buy the experience, and we give them that experience.
When things become muddled is when those who buy the expertise and hard work of others forget that they are in fact buying it.
You cannot compare a DIY hunt to a guided hunt. The guide can compare it, but the client cannot.
When you live half a continent away (or a hemisphere), it's hard to do all that one needs to in order to put in their time and effort to do the research, learn the area, do the scouting in order "to mater the outdoors". I have "mastered the outdoors" with almost every type of hunting experience in Mississippi and want to see and experience more. I am a pharmacist and a preacher. Between my 2 professions, it leaves little time to actually pack up and go hunt. I sure don't have time to run to Idaho 7 or 8 times to scout before I come to hunt for a week. I've been to Africa twice now. At no time did it ever cross my mind that I killed 11 animals on an 8 day hunt this year because of my hunting skill. that would be silly. Without a doubt, I know that if I was told "Here's the land and boundaries and a topo map. Go hunt." I know I could have been successful hunting something. But certainly I would not have taken (with my wife) 11 quality animals. that would be absurd to even say. It's like Marius said "I'm a PH, I'm supposed to be able to do this better than you. I do it 270 days a year. You're a pharmacist and preacher and I sure couldn't do that at all."
Not pointed at you or anyone in particular, but for someone to demean or belittle someone else for hiring a guide when they live across the continent from the hunting area is an example of jackassedness.
I might have a odd sense of humor and poking fun is one thing, but I certainly don't "hate" anybody for how they choose to recreate.
You are correct, "hate" is an often misused word and I am guilty of that misuse. How about "disdain", for the term "Africa Clowns" is pretty clear. j
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Saw my Rhodesian/Zim expat buddy John Tolmay yesterday. Born and raised in Rhodesia, he was a PH for some 30 years before he was forced out by Mugabe. He now lives in North Carolina and is a marvelous bronze artist.
I asked John how he was doing, and his reply was a sincere "I've got to get back to Africa!". He needed a fix, so to speak. The allure of African hunting to many of us is not the game or the hunting per se, it is Africa. Difficult to convey to those who have never been.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Big element of men/women here in the USA who want to cut to the chase and buy the outdoor experience. That's fine. They have money and they use that money to try to get a similar experience as someone who has put in their time/effort to master the outdoors. Guys like me make a good living catering those wanting to buy the experience, and we give them that experience.
When things become muddled is when those who buy the expertise and hard work of others forget that they are in fact buying it.
You cannot compare a DIY hunt to a guided hunt. The guide can compare it, but the client cannot.
What I don't get is why some people apparently look down on guided hunts and hunters--even some people who are guides.
I've been hunting big game for 48 years now. Was born and raised here in Montana so had plenty of public land to hunt, and also some private before anybody ever thought of leasing hunting rights. I've hunted all over the world now, but my wife and I still hunt public land in Montana every year, along with some private. We've taken whitetails, mule deer, pronghorns, elk, moose, black bear and bighorn sheep on DIY, public-land hunts, everything from eating meat to some very good trophies. Have also guided here in Montana, both on public and private land, both informally for friends and formally for a couple of different outfitters, helping other people who for whatever reason couldn't or didn't want to do it themselves, and never felt like putting them down for "cutting to the chase," or because they didn't do the whole thing on their own.
Have also hunted DIY/public in other states and Canada, but haven't in some other places I wanted to hunt, mostly because of laws requiring a guide, or logistical problems of getting on the ground. Didn't feel the slightest bit of guilt at "cutting to the chase."
Hunters used to be able to hunt DIY in a lot of Africa, and still can in a very few places. Hunters used to be able to go to South Africa and find a place to hunt on their own pretty easily, just by contacting landowners, but like Texas there isn't much public hunting land (maybe none) and they had to pay for any game killed, since it legally belongs to the landowner, and is considered a profitable part of owning land, since the meat can be sold to butcher shops and restaurants. I believe you can still do the same in parts of Europe, though getting a hunting license can be tough.
We were lucky enough to draw a few permits for more common big game here in Montana this year, and as a result will be hunting birds in September on public land partly to scout for big game. Will also be hunting private ground in November for deer, because a landowner friend invited us. Might get an urge to go hunt something I'd have to pay for, either in access or guide fees, though don't have any plans at the moment. Don't feel particularly special or guilty about any of it, perhaps because I've been doing it all for a long time, so don't know why some people have to make a big deal of either.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
What I don't get is why some people apparently look down on guided hunts and hunters--even some people who are guides.
I don't look down on them, especially in a place like Africa where you pretty much have to use a guide or not hunt. Seems like hunting with a good guide there would be a big part of the experience.
And I don't look down on someone who wants to spend $15K on a guided private land elk hunt. Some of those guys save up a long time for that, and it's literally the hunt of a lifetime for them. And when they're telling the story, they don't leave out the part about the guide, and give the guide the credit he deserves. Who am I to find fault with that?
However, I do believe that bagging the same bull (or buck) on your own, on a public land DIY hunt is much more of a personal accomplishment. And much more to be proud of. And some guys will leave out the part about the guide, or the part about paying to hunt a high-fenced South Texas ranch for a genetically-manipulated and spoon fed "monster buck." To me, that's nothing to brag about. I think that's the source of the disdain.
What I don't get is why some people apparently look down on guided hunts and hunters--even some people who are guides.
I don't look down on them, especially in a place like Africa where you pretty much have to use a guide or not hunt. Seems like hunting with a good guide there would be a big part of the experience.
And I don't look down on someone who wants to spend $15K on a guided private land elk hunt. Some of those guys save up a long time for that, and it's literally the hunt of a lifetime for them. And when they're telling the story, they don't leave out the part about the guide, and give the guide the credit he deserves. Who am I to find fault with that?
However, I do believe that bagging the same bull (or buck) on your own, on a public land DIY hunt is much more of a personal accomplishment. And much more to be proud of. And some guys will leave out the part about the guide, or the part about paying to hunt a high-fenced South Texas ranch for a genetically-manipulated and spoon fed "monster buck." To me, that's nothing to brag about. I think that's the source of the disdain.
I can agree with the first, as well as the second. That said, they should differentiate between a fenced hunt like that, and a hard hunted buffalo in the Dande North region of Zimbabwe, where there are no guarantees.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Fost: it's the nature of the internet. Want a great example? take a look at my seemingly innocuous post about a rifle I made up for my son and I made the HORRIBLE mistake of getting it in 3006!
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I notice that the "bang for buck" comparison outlined by many is what you get in numbers/variety of dead animals per number of days and what you pay in thousands of dollars to somebody else to coordinate the adventure. Telling is the price break down using a guided Vermajo Park elk hunt as the comparison. Am I the only guy that finds the humor here?
I'm penciling out 3 non-resident elk hunts that I'll be doing in the next 5-7 years. All better than Vermajo Park, and all well under the OP's cheapest alternative in the first post. Go figure.
I'm penciling out 3 non-resident elk hunts that I'll be doing in the next 5-7 years. All better than Vermajo Park, and all well under the OP's cheapest alternative in the first post. Go figure.
Not everyone that loves hunting is perfectly fit and/or between 20-45 years old with Montana or Alaska as their backyard playground.
They may not be fit enough to pack in a camp and set everything up (or have the necessary gear!), or even have the skills to manage the logistics of an out of state DIY hunt...especially if the only time available to do this is maybe ONCE a year.
Is it somehow unethical for an individual without the same hunting opportunities as those out West or in Alaska to utilize a guide?? Or to be ridiculed, looked down upon, and sneered at? Should they be denied all hunting because they can't walk out the door and DIY?
I think MD pretty much covered nailed it as you have Fost. I have a good friend who lives in Montana near Thompson Falls and is strictly a recurve bow hunter. He has some spectacular trophies and he admits he hunts hard for them, but even he admits living in Montana makes things a lot easier. My wife and I are going up there in October to scout out a possible retirement place. Anyhow, location is a huge component. Just ask anyone who lives in Africa and hunts. They were taking from lions to buffalo before their teens. Bottom line is in MY opinion when it comes to variety, Africa has no equal, and some of us hunt there because WE CAN.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I notice that the "bang for buck" comparison outlined by many is what you get in numbers/variety of dead animals per number of days and what you pay in thousands of dollars to somebody else to coordinate the adventure. Telling is the price break down using a guided Vermajo Park elk hunt as the comparison. Am I the only guy that finds the humor here?
I'm penciling out 3 non-resident elk hunts that I'll be doing in the next 5-7 years. All better than Vermajo Park, and all well under the OP's cheapest alternative in the first post. Go figure.
No I don't see your humor.......I have hunted Vermajo and the T-O they would be hard to beat but good luck....btw they were used as an apples to apples comparison.....meals lodging ect ect......and now I have also done a 10 day PG hunt
Go to Africa and DYI........TFF
BTW......I also hunt Colorado public DIY walk in each year I can draw
Is it somehow unethical for an individual without the same hunting opportunities as those out West or in Alaska to utilize a guide?? Or to be ridiculed, looked down upon, and sneered at? Should they be denied all hunting because they can't walk out the door and DIY?
Who said anything about being "unethical?"
You guys are talking past each other. What it all boils down to is why you hunt and what you want to get out of it. And how important it is to you.
For some guys, it's important enough to make the choice to live where there's good hunting. They can't imagine why someone else would choose to live where they can't hunt like they want, and then complain about being far away from good hunting.
That's not a knock either.
For some guys, hunting is all about the challenge and solving the problem themselves. Whether it be the logistics of an out-of-state hunt, figuring out where the elk are and how to get on them, or just being in good enough shape to get far from the road where the trophies are. They can't imagine turning that responsibility over to someone else because that would take away the reason they hunt.
I'm not making a case one way or the other, that's just how I see it.
What I don't get is why some people apparently look down on guided hunts and hunters--even some people who are guides.
Makes them feel superior,and magnifies their own accomplishments.A/k/a "ego".
Much of the din comes from Up North and Out West.If you live and hunt in the Great Western States,and aren't filling freezers and hanging racks on the wall, you're not trying very hard.
They like DIY? I got one for them. Come back east and go whitetail hunting north of Bangor, DIY.
I give them 5 years.If they see a whitetail buck in the 140 range they can stop by on the way back and I'll pay for dinner.And not at a cheap place either.
If they kill two in that time frame (2 because anyone can get "lucky")....I'll pay for the hunt.
Point taken Bob, but I'm not sure why a guy from say Montana would want to spend time and energy traveling back east to hunt a place where they'd be lucky to see a decent deer, when they can hunt in-state.
I'd jump at the chance to hunt Africa, if I could do it next year. I'm jumping up and down to go hunting again this year. I don't think of them as 'multispecies' hunts, but that's what they are here in the west. It has been the exception that I've only had one tag when a season started. I've hunted three states over the last 32 years in the west. It is in my blood, my bones to roam around mountains, enduring what has to be, and digging all the rest. I feel grateful, not because I get to do what others can't, but because I get to. I don't know how much longer that will be the case, as the health issues mount more rapidly than I'd have imagined.
Some locals out here do it hard and do it right, but most just go out to shoot the first thing they can legally take. At popular elk crossings along roads, it's not uncommon to see a couple dozen elk 'hunters' sitting in their trucks drinking coffee. I couldn't do that, because that isn't why I do it. I do my share of road hunting, but not for elk, because I haven't seen elk near a road in years. There are lots of ways to hunt elk, and some are far less sporting than an African ranch hunt.
I've enjoyed this thread. I've not hunted anywhere beyond the western states, and I appreciate more perspectives than mine. It seems like to deep truth for all of us here is that we enjoy hunting, and the where, what, and how much are just new things to reach for, to dream about.
Please, come West. Hire guides, or not. Don't either/or Africa or Elk. Do both. There is a beauty here that is unspeakable, game or not. Some of you know all about it.
Please, come West. Hire guides, or not. Don't either/or Africa or Elk. Do both. There is a beauty here that is unspeakable, game or not. Some of you know all about it.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
I'm one western hunter who's hunted not just whitetails but turkeys on public land in the East, and in several states. I did it partly because I'm a hunting writer, and wanted to see how conditions vary across the country so I can provide more realistic advice. But I also did it because I have friends across the country and like to spend time with them, both hunting and hanging out. Of course, some of the same people have hunted out here with me, and were blown away by the relative abundance of both game and public land.
But none of North America compares to the abundance of Africa, and I'm not talking about fenced ranches. I've hunted wild Africa several times, and it's as much different from hunting in Montana as Montana is from hunting the eastern U.S. I also find it baffling how many people who obviously love wild country and wild animals don't feel the slightest pull toward Africa, still the most diverse collection of truly wild country and game left on the planet, despite too many people causing wild Africa to shrink more every year.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
smokepole,I'm one western hunter who's hunted not just whitetails but turkeys on public land in the East....
Me too. Don't leave out the Midwest though.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I also find it baffling how many people who obviously love wild country and wild animals don't feel the slightest pull toward Africa....
Like I said, it's all in what you want to get out of it. And where your priorities are.
I'd like to see Africa, and I also wouldn't mind hunting on private land like Vermejo Park. Or doing a brown bear hunt in coastal Alaska. I'm just not going to plunk down $15K for the privilege.
It's not that I can't afford it, just that none are that high on my list. I'd rather hunt elk or pronghorns close to home, and do it on my own.
I find it baffling that you find find it baffling that other people have different priorities. There are almost as many different reasons to hunt as there are hunters.
Makes them feel superior,and magnifies their own accomplishments.A/k/a "ego".
ego? well, when they can do THIS:
THEN they can talk ego
Seriously, I am impressed by these guys that hunt these huge animals DIY
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Oh, I freely admit that my non-understanding of other hunters' non-curiosity about the wild outside of their own corner of the world isn't rational. And I also freely admit that my priorities are obviously different than most people's. Despite having hunted Cape buffalo a few times, I'd rather hunt wild pheasants--which would probably baffle most other hunters. (At this stage of my life I might even say the same thing about elk--but will hunt both elk and pheasants this fall.)
It also baffles me that some hunters NEVER hunt their own states, instead traveling elsewhere for ALL their hunting. One of these is a well-known writer who'd never "stoop" to hunting whitetails anywhere--and has no interest in elk hunting. But he's a good friend and I do understand that's his deal.
By the way, I have hunted both public and private land in the Midwest. In fact I've hunted over half the states and provinces in the U.S. and Canada, and even hunted deer in several other countries. But once again, I admit my compulsions are probably baffling to others.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
John: This past February Hatari invited Pugs and I to an upland bird hunt near his place in Georgia. I had not been bird hunting in over 20 years, and at the end of the day, I can say understand what you said about your pheasant hunting! j
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
By the way, I have hunted both public and private land in the Midwest. In fact I've hunted over half the states and provinces in the U.S. and Canada, and even hunted deer in several other countries.
I will admit I'm impressed. But I'd be more impressed if it was your avocation rather than vocation. And you guys want to talk about "ego?"
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
smokepole, Oh, I freely admit that my non-understanding of other hunters' non-curiosity about the wild outside of their own corner of the world isn't rational.
Nice try to re-frame the discussion as DIY local hunters being parochial and small-minded. But you missed my point.
I am curious about Africa, and would like to see it some day. But up to this point it's been about other priorities like getting three kids through college. When I do go I'll be just as happy tripping a shutter as I would pulling the trigger.
Because having someone else take care of me, cook my meals, lead me to animals, and tell me when to pull the trigger is not what I want to get out of hunting. I'm not knocking it but pulling the trigger is not why I hunt. If I'm going on a trip where everything is taken care of, I'd rather have my wife along to enjoy that and she doesn't hunt.
When I hunt, I want to be the one who figures out where the animals are, how to stalk within range, and when to pull the trigger.
And I want the outcome to be in doubt. Listening to guys talk about prices and which/how many animals you can kill for X dollars is a turn-off for me.
And I want some solitude. Kind of hard to get that on a safari.
It has nothing to do with curiosity about other parts of the world.
Have we got this ironed out yet? Ive done both the Africa and the DIY western thing. Probably will be hated by both sides now�.
I've done and continue to do both, even this year in fact. I already have a 14 day hunt in South Africa completed, just waiting for September to start my DIY seasons. Love both types of hunting and very different at that!
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
"Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning"
I made hunting part of my vocation because I knew then I'd do it as much as I wanted, along with writing, the two things I wanted most to do when young. Believe me, it did NOT come easy, and was just as conscious a choice as your decision to hunt the way you like.
I don't know who the "you guys" are you mention. I also don't know why you go on and on about how you prefer to hunt, when I don't think anybody on this thread who travels to hunt ever mentioned anything specifically about you, or your preferences.
My comments concerning people who've expressed contempt for pay-for-lay hunters were about some OTHER people on the Campfire who HAVE expressed contempt, in one way or another. I hadn't read anything like that from you.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Fair enough. Looking back, I see you aren't one of the guys talking about ego, I apologize.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I also don't know why you go on and on about how you prefer to hunt, when I don't think anybody on this thread who travels to hunt ever mentioned anything specifically about you, or your preferences.
That's true, no one has asked about that. What I am offering is an answer to your question about why some guys look down on a hunt where the outcome is dependent on the skills and work of others. Apparently, "you guys" are having a hard time figuring that out, as evidenced by your question.
And the answer is as I said before, that it's all about what an individual wants to get out of a hunt. For some, going on a safari and having someone else figure out the logistics, find the animals, put them on the animals, and tell them when to pull the trigger takes away the reason they hunt. So they can't understand why others would pay good money to do it that way. That's where the disdain comes in.
I can't speak for others as to why they hunt, the only way I can illustrate that is by giving my own reasons. I hope that's OK with you.
I'm addicted to big mulies. Killed tremendous bucks, 1 guided, 3 DIY, craploads of DIY aoudad, some big whiteys DIY. I'm also lucky enough to have hunted Africa twice and there's no experience like it that I'm aware of. I worked my azzz off to afford to be able to do it, and if someone looks doesn't like it, well, I could give a ratzazzz ( I happen to like that about myself).
Some of the best people I've met in my entire life have been while hunting.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Am I one of the "you guys"? Ha. I only chimed in because I caught wind I was being referenced as a dick on a topic comparing Africa to Elk hunting.
I've never tried, nor have interest in a safari. Don't have a problem with anybody who does. I do have an ego (who doesn't?) and I'm also addicted to hunting elk.
GH, you're one of the guys that can get it done on your own. You should be proud of your accomplishments. That's not easy to do, especially the quality of game you kill. I respect that. Hell I've had 4 knee surgeries. There's no way I cold navigate that country like you do.
I love to hunt, and will continue to do so in whatever form or fashion (legally of course) that I feel like doing, even if that means culling whitetail does (TX private land MLD ground) safari style from a vehicle. Killed 17 in one day (7-08/120 BT's)and it was loads of fun. Gave all the meat to Hunters for the Hungry....they gave me a "high five."
I do believe jealousy is the biggest reason people use condescending remarks and attitudes towards guided hunts, especially when a real corker is killed.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
I agree that ego is involved for me in finding where animals are, getting myself into a position to get a shot, and then making that shot. I'm accountable for the success of my hunt, or lack thereof, in every aspect. That's a big deal for me, and I've failed vastly more often at getting game than I've succeeded. I increase my chances of success with effort.
Should the guy who sits in his idling truck at historic elk routes all day, and happens to get a shot at animals that somebody else pushed that way get the same bragging rights as another guy who scouts and finds the animals, hikes several miles to get to them when the season opens, gets into position, makes a good shot, does the work of hauling all the animal out?
It is all hunting, and the guy in the truck would argue that he is hunting smarter rather than harder, but the difference lies in leaving it to chance, or taking control of the task. I see it similarly with paid hunts and guides. I know that if there wasn't some small guarantee of success paid for in cash, guys wouldn't spend small fortunes hunting with guides, no matter the locale.
Isn't the point of guided hunting, except where it is mandated by law, largely to pay to have a greater chance of success? It certainly doesn't give the guys who do it all on their own the justification to be dicks about it, but it should give them more bragging rights, shouldn't it?
The complaint that guys hunting near where they live have some advantage that others don't doesn't mesh with the reality of life. We all choose to live somewhere. If you choose to live back east, and then complain about the cost of western elk hunts, or the unfair advantage that locals have, you must realize that you can move to and live where ever you choose. That holds for much hunting around the world.
Am I one of the "you guys"? Ha. I only chimed in because I caught wind I was being referenced as a dick on a topic comparing Africa to Elk hunting.
I've never tried, nor have interest in a safari. Don't have a problem with anybody who does. I do have an ego (who doesn't?) and I'm also addicted to hunting elk.
Yes but in a good way... What's the saying, "Im not conceded, just convinced", but if you didn't "have a problem", the Africa Clowns comment sure didn't come out that way. I respect you and the rest of the DIY hunters and a hunter you are, but in reality, IDGAF, what anybody else thinks of my "hunting" or whatever anyone chooses to call it. Done both, love both. Enough said. j
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
However, I do believe that bagging the same bull (or buck) on your own, on a public land DIY hunt is much more of a personal accomplishment. And much more to be proud of. And some guys will leave out the part about the guide, or the part about paying to hunt a high-fenced South Texas ranch for a genetically-manipulated and spoon fed "monster buck." To me, that's nothing to brag about. I think that's the source of the disdain.
This hits close to home for me and it has nothing to do with Africa. I'll scout for elk year round and be thinking ways to make public land DIY elk hunts successful in future years. It's low budget. I suspect that it is not so much different for Greenhorn, Smokepole, and some others.
We've seen the guys that kill a cow on a guided hunt, or on a ranching for wildlife hunt, or a guided hunt on a private ranch, then post 15 photos of it along with their entire history, want to know where their statue will be built, but then not mention that the hunt was guided or private or both. After being on the forum a few years you begin to figure out who those guys are.
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