Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .45acp / Barnes 185 / Unique ??

Barnes' online data is limited to Longshot and Silhouette, and Alliant doesn't specifically mention the Barnes (with its long shank and deep seat).

Does anyone trustworthy here have trustworthy load information or trustworthy suggestions?
I'd very much like to use Unique.

I think Gunner shot a hog with one of those back in March. I think he loads power pistol, if I remember correctly.

I'd better rephrase, make my preference very clear-

Does anyone trustworthy here have trustworthy load information for, or trustworthy suggestions about using in this combo, Unique?

I wouldn't necessarily trust me either, or the Lyman manual I am looking at that gives relative burn rate.

But let me be very clear. Lyman's relative burn rate list shows powders from fastest to slowest and Alliant's Unique comes in at #24. Ramshot Silhouette @ #29 and Hodgdon's Longshot at #39.

I would guess that if you are married to Unique, you should take a look at the data for Ramshot Silhouette and take a wildass guess from there.

If you think you are trustworthy.

Would you trust somebody at Barnes? You could give them a call.

Likely it would be too intelligent to start with a conservative load (say like 7.3 gr for a 200 gr GD) & work up to where you think you should stop.........but as I said, that logic might be too intelligent.

Rock on, Dood.

MM

You would need to use 230 grain data since the Barnes is at least as long and would reduce case capacity at least as much. It is more about how deeply the bullets seats into the case.

You might be right, John; I didn't go check the bullet lengths.

Though the 6.0 gr recommended for a 230 GD might be overly conservative, the point remains the same........begin at a safe level & work up.

Really no different than typical (common sense) load development where little published data is handy.

MM

I'm not a whit trustworthy!

WAG based on comparisons will be my next move if this thread doesn't satisfy.

I hadn't considered calling Barnes. I'd expect that if they had good info that they wanted to pass along on the combo, it'd be part of their data.

Intelligent logic, too, might be involved in my next move.

The depth difference between my usual 185 and the Barnes version gives me lots of pause.

As it should.

...........hence the references to a longer, heavier bullet data a "safe" starting point.

MM

I get it. I get it.

When you figure this out, please post some data. I am hopeful for a load using my existing supply of Unique as well. Other pistol powders are virtually non existent on local shelves, so in these trying times we sometimes may have to improvise a little with our loads. I also have some AA#9 which will probably be a better solution with this case and bullet, but a Unique load would sure be handy, too.

Thanks for taking the heat on this question!

This is what I'd do first.

I just sent Barnes an email...

Don't be surprised if you don't get a response from Barnes. I ouldn't get one for my 10mm using their 155 gr. bullets. I got a really detailed one from Ramshot, however. So, perhaps you can try Alliant if I recall correctly that they make Unique.
I, for one, would be very reluctant to try "working up" a load for the .45 ACP in a handgun. Handguns don't show pressure signs nearly as well as do rifles. When dealing with a round like the .45 ACP, which tops out at pressures in the low 20,000 psi range, I wouldn't try it. Especially with a bullet like that. BTW, whatever you do, be very careful overall lenth of your loads.
I'm in the same boat you are. Have to go lead free in the next few years for hunting. E

That's my situation, but it's immediate (past) for me in A-Zone. The Green Enforcers would not be pleased to find a leaded .45 on my hip even if my hunting arm was a rifle with compliant ammo.

I understand your concerns, but you're talking more conservatively than I'll act. But I'll be cautious. (Famous last words... )
Overall length, powder space, and bearing surface will all be guesstimatedly factored in.
One good thing is that I've no need to 'maximize potential' right now, just put together something not unuseful. If I need to step out on my own in the short term, I can be conservative; and wait for better info later on which to build a premium load.

1100 fps is possible with the Barnes 185 at +P pressures with the correct powder. I do not think you can get to 1100 fps with unique without being above +P pressure.

Thanks.
Those match my conclusions.

Yes I did, and our good friend NHK9-George shot the hell outta a 300 pounder the year before with the same load.

OP, 7 gr Unique will get ya about 1050 fps with the 185 gr Barnes in a 5" barreled pistol, a +P load, but entirely safe in a stock platform.

Right on JWP, I get 1150 with Power Pistol and Longshot powders, both show equal accuracy, the Longshot has a lot less flash.

Thanks. That's the sort of info I'm looking for.
Not to be sniffy, but what's the basis for your statement?

And don't call me Opie!

Personal experience when I couldnt locate any PP or Longshot powders, the Unique load shot just fine with more than exceptable accuracy albeit a bit dirtier burning than the other two.

Load was fire in both a Springfield Trophy Match and a Les Baer Custom Carry.

Thanks.

How did you get to 7? Stepped up, or simply chose?
Done with 'official' data, or your own calculating?
What makes you say it's +P? (I expect anything going that fast from a .45 should be considered +P; I'm just asking for your reasoning.)

(Please say that you didn't fire it in a second gun because the first one blew up. )

Guessed, ran 6.5 grs with 230 gr Gold Dots for decades, called it +P because Barnes runs the same bullet [185 X] at or around 975 fps with their load data.

No blowups, not even close, have taken the 1911 platform with heavier springs to 1200 fps with 230 gr FMJ-FP bullets in 45 Super Brass.

Thank you very much.

Yo welcome.

I got a response to my email from Ty Herring.
He could offer nothing with Unique. He added an attachment, a page of loads for 160 and 185 bullets, "revised 01/10/2011", that I suppose is from their printed manual.

Sorry, safariman-- no data for #9 there, either.

Dang, saw this poat and thought you were gonna report excellent functionality and accuracy from the 7 gr Unique load.

SM, IMHO AA-#9 is a bit to slow for the 45 ACP, AA-#7 is mucho perfect with 230's.

Thanks guys, right now AA#9 (3lbs of it! ) , H110, and Unique plus some Lil Gun is all I have on hand for handguns. Usually, one of those wil get me a decent load and AA#9 totally rocks in a 10mm auto. Time to add a few more gunpowders to my pistol ammo shelf and selections.

macrabbit, what other powders did Ty have on his revised pages for that bullet? Which ones hold the most promise for velocity? Wondering what others powders to put on the shelf, pending location of same. Longshot is on my short list for 200+gr 10mm loads, what for the Barnes 185's is the question of the day.

MARK

I won't post a copy of the page (there were copyright-style warnings in the corporate fine print at the bottom of his email), but highest velocities (all +P) were achieved with Power Pistol, A-#5, Titegroup, and Zip. The two shown in the site's data are not on the list, but neither was quite as fast.
160's topped with HS-6 and Silhouette.

Thanks! I will try to get a copy of that update of my own. Much appreciated!

I compared the Barnes data for all their listed powders with those same powders for 'regular' 185's in three other manuals, looked at velocities, maxes, and powder weights.
I think gunner500 had it right.
I intend to start at 6.5 gr. of Unique and step up until I reach 1000 fps. or a max of 7.0, with accuracy.
Half a grain should be worth a little more than 50 fps., so 6.5 might have me there already.

(What could possibly go wrong? )

Even with the rifle bullets, Barnes data and other similar weight bullet data is different. The longer bearing surface (mitigated somewhat by the new bands or relief grooves) and the natural 'stickyness' of pure copper VS gilding metal used in most other bullets throws a lot of curves into the mix that must be accounted for. Then there is the fact of less room for gunpowder.

It was trying to run the old original Barnes X bullets at 3800-3900fps from long barreled long throated custom 257WBY's that got me into Moly Coating. I still do it because I am a total velocity whore, but it is less neccesary than it used to be. I don't moly my 338 or 416 Barnes bullets, for example.

I understand.
My figures take into account the various "lessnesses" of Barnes' figures vs the others.
6.5 gr. of Unique (my starting load) is some 23% less than a Hornady's max with their 185 gr. bullet.

More importantly what percent is it compared to the Hornady 230 grainer.

11%

And so now I checked all the other manuals' 230 gr. loads against Barnes' 185 data. Pretty much, they are equivalent.
So I think I'm still on a sensible right track. Utmost would be for me to drop my starter a few tenths lower than 6.5.

I appreciate the second opinions.

First trial is over:
I loaded five rounds with 6.5 grains Unique, seated to 1.235".
Average velocity was 949 fps.

Will next try 6.8, with some extras for testing grouping.

(40 bullets per box-- BAH!)

I quite agree....BAH ! Keep in mind that Barnes bullets penetrate really well. Even at 949 fps., they should do well on anything. And you have less recoil.
If you can find some Ramshot Silhouette that would give you more, but only to 1017 fps. BTW, Ramshot found by going to an overall catriage lenth of 1.256, instead of 1.235, they could keep pressures down to 20,336 psi. E

I've not tested such an OAL, but the 1235 seems to fill the magazine pretty well already.

I tested 6.8 grains of Unique, averaged 1001.25 fps.
That'll do for me. These are "compliance" loads, not my regular stuff.
They shot reasonably well, and to about the same POI at 25 yards.
Looks like I'm good to go.

Thanks, everyone, for your assistance.

Great news 'rabbit, seems your ready.

From Barnes Loading Manual


*The Barnes #45185 185-grain XPB bullet has a slight taper on the base to prevent bulging case
wall once the bullet is seated. Only a slight amount of case mouth belling is needed prior to
seating the bullet in the case.


Bullet Weight: 185 gr Case Trim Length: .888" S.D. 0.130



Bullet Style: XPB Primer: WLP B.C. 0.167
COAL: 1.235 Barrel Length: 5"
Case: Winchester Twist Rate: 1:16"
Charge Velocity Charge Velocity
Powder (grains) (fps) (grains) (fps)

Silhouette 6.1 844--- 6.8 938
Longshot 6.0 848--- 7.0 979

That bullet will blow a hole that both Ronnie Milsap and Ray Charles could piss through at the same time.

I'm presently carrying Speer 185 gr Gold Dots in my Kimber and my Springfield Champion, wonder if it would be worth the change

From you above post Bea, I dont bell my cases at all with the 185 Barnes, a slight ID deburring of the case works well for me, holds the bullet damn tight, dont want any set-back issues.

The little 185 Gold-Dot is a fine bullet, dont think a crackhead or car door could tell the diffrence.

I've also found almost no case mouth belling is needed with the Barnes TAC-X bullets.
They out penetrate other hollow point designs because they open with gaps between the petals. E

From the Lee Data, 45 ACP

A bulging case at the bullet base is not always a bad thing. In fact sometimes it is a better thing.

Ramshot's loading data is alot different. Their maximum load with their Silhouette powder is 6.1 grs. to start and a maximum of 6.8 grs. with a cartriage overall lenth of 1.235 inches. That gets you 938 fps. If you increase the overall cartriage lenth to 1.256, you can go to 1017 fps. at 20,366 psi. E

I prefer it.

I do too.

I had the chance to try my new load on a small blacktail.
I was concerned that the all-copper bullet wouldn't expand at such low velocities (I know- .45 is big enough!), but Barnes' skiving (or whatever) worked well.

55 yards, uphill, quartering to.
Entered low inside shoulder, exited (under hide) middle vert and halfway back behind off shoulder. I neglected to check for broken ribs on either side.
Still weighs 185 grains, expanded to .771.





I guess I'll carry it with good confidence.

They work very well IME.

Let there be light, young Mac-Rabbit.

I revisited the scene of the crime. Broken rib going in, not out.

Why not use a good, modern powder instead? Like Longshot or Silhouette?

Grats, Macrabbit. Glad it has worked out for you.

Hey, Gunner (or anyone else), have you shot anything with the .40 cal version of those bullets?

I want to use a good, old powder like Unique.
I have a supply, I use it in a number of cartridges, and I want to keep my varieties to a minimum. A choice.

Yessir SOTG, the 140 TAC-HP's at 1200 flat work.

That is a pity, now I'll have to run some down and try them.