Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Hello - New Member and 45-70 Leverlution question

Hello! New page member here... this could be a rather addicting place! I'm looking for a bit of insight. I had a 22" Marlin in 45-70 a few years back that I ended up having to sell. Regreted it the moment the sale was complete. So, last week picked up a new Marlin guide gun in 45-70. Not having had a 45-70 in a bit I thought I'd do a little research to see what ammo is available these days for the rifle, best options, etc. Unfortunately, I don't reload, yet. Anyway, the rifle came with a box of Remington 405 grain shells (semi jacketed flat points), a box of Rem. 300 HP's and a box of 325 grain Leverlutions from Hornady. I've heard the Remington factory 405's are a decent round, even if a little under powered. I've been reading up on the Leverlutions as well, and have read some posts here on the ammo... the thing I notice in my reading is several posts (here and other sites) are a couple of years old and mainly speak of how the rounds do on paper and on deer (I hunt mule deer). The thing I'm not finding is how the round does with the heavier boned elk we find here in Idaho. 405's I know will punch right through... but is there anyone who's hunted elk with the leverlution and have been successful with it? Where did you hit the animal and how did it perform?

Thanks in advance for your insight!
Mark (mlrshooter)

Mark, I have a Marlin 1895 SS. Never killed an elk with it. HOWEVER,I DO have 2 Sharps Buffalo rifles and have killed a Newfie moose and a Wyoming buffler. Like dropping a safe on their heads. A 500 lb wild pig sow fell to the slightly(?) less powerful one. Same ending. A 45/70 loaded with 420 grain cast bullets at 20:1 at 1300 would smoke half a dinosaur out of his sandals. It is the sight system you wanna look at. The 405 you have will do any critter you want.

Thanks for the reply. Followup questions... and it may simply be that I'm not fully understanding your answer...

1) cast bullets, I assume you are speaking of those a reloader may "make" with molds, etc., on his own? Or commercially made?

2) With the 405 grain shells I have on hand... are we talking 100 yards or less? Can I take a 150-200 yard shot (If I do my part, of course) with it? I hunt pretty brushy/timbered areas... but have had opportunities to take animals on the other side of a clearing off a ridge I hunt at 225 yards +. I don't mind getting in close... the stalk is a pretty cool rush, actually.

3) I know the 45-70 is my no means a long range round. I just want to know my ethical limitations with some of the commercial (and affordable) loads out there. Those Hornady Leverlutions are supposed to extend your range a bit, but I'm also concerned about the bullet holding up if I nail a big bull in the shoulder bond.

Thanks, again, for your insight!!

Well,no.1-Yep,I cast my own from lead/tin at 30:1 for most,20:1 for others. Range for a 45/70?? It is ALL in the sights. FlyboyFlem uses irons on his 444 Marlin out to 300 yards. The 45/70 is fully capable of taking big critters for farther than you would believe. "Point Blank" shooting is good for about 125 yards. IF you have good quick adjust iron sights,it is good for a LOOONNNNGGG way out if you are a good shot. My Pard Gunner 500 hits the steel pigs at 500 with no problem with his 45/70 using BLACK POWDER!! 405's are easily good for 150 with a slight adjustment. Shoot the daylights out of the gun at 100-200 yards and see how you want to place the sights..

Do you know about PM's here???

My reccomendation for elk with a 45-70 would be the Buffalo Bore Factory Ammo with the Hard Cast Bullets. They will out Penatrate all other Factory 45-70 loads that you mentioned.

Of the loads you mentioned, they will all kill elk. And like with any game animal, it's all about shot placement and knowing the range & capability of your ammo.

I consider my Marlin 1895 to be a 150 yard elk rifle, because of the low powered scope mounted on it, not the cartridge. There's lots of stories of the old time bison hunters killing stuff well over 1000 yards with a 45-70.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean that I'm that capable of doing the same. I know my shooting limitations, and sure as heck don't won't to wound an elk because of my crappy shooting ability at 1000 yards. .

By the way, My Marlin 1895 hates the LeverLution Ammo. Groups spread to 5" at 100 yards. Maybe it's just my rifle, but mine will shoot the 300 grain HP's into a 3-shot 1" group at 100 yards.
Find out what your particular Marlin shoots the most accurately and then spend some trigger time practicing with that particular load. It will pay of on a future hunt. Enjoy your new rifle & good luck on an Elk Hunt. The real work starts when you get one on the ground!

WHY does everyone want to use hardcast???? That is like shooting an elk with a 458 Winchester mag SOLID. Most would not consider using such a combination opting for an expanding bullet A 20:1 400+ grain cast slug at 1300-1400 fps will penetrate like a cannon shell. A Speer 400 g flatpoint at 1500 will do in critters a ways out, one just needs to do the shooting and learn his rifle. It is one helluva lot of fun to really get into shooting a rifle enough to really learn it and it translates into lead flyin' and meat fryin'

You certainly know my pref in the 444 and it sure isn't hard cast.My 310 gr gas check cast 30:1 will not only penetrate plenty but created havoc on the vitals as it blows through.If rock hard bullets were so necessary then we'd all be shooting solids.A good 300-400 grainer outta either the 444 or 45/70 at modest velocities will buckle knees on most critters within ones own comfort zone and do it efficiently even at extended ranges.

This may or may not be the same bullet ET and Flyboy Flem are speaking about . . . but I am certain theirs are very similar.

Pic of a Lyman 457193 RNFP 405 gr bullet cast 30:1 (weight as cast is actually about 415 gr). Pic is obviously an as cast and a recovered bullet - the recovered bullet was 412 gr after going through both shoulders of a 230# white tail and stopping short of exiting. Shot was at 35-40 yards from a 45-70 Marlin 1895 Cowboy (smokeless load at about 1600 fps) - this deer dropped like he had been hit on the head with the hammer of Thor. Nothing wrong with cast bullet performance here.

Dandy picture Nick not many jacketed can better that performance..

ET, with the right meplat, the damage the LBT type bullets do can be impressive.

And, you are correct in stating that a 400+ cast or the 400 grain speer will kill things. With authority.

Perhaps one of the best bullets I've used for killing deer has been the 300 grain Speer UniCor at just under 2200 fps. That's an impressive bullet that does not do excessive damage at that speed. That bullet holds together well enough that I wouldn't be afraid to use it on Elk or Moose.

I still like my LBT bullets, using them in a .44 mag and my .45-70. I've not had deer run any further when double-lunged, and I know I can break runnin' gear from any angle

Don't need to throw 'em fast Vic. Ya really don't. Using the buffalo guns has taught me a LOT about big bores(44's and 45's)with softer bullets at lower speeds. They really are friggin' hammers.

Yep. My experience too. An LBT bullet with a big ole wide flat meplat does a lot of damage. I prefer the LBT WFN bullet. They will shoot end to end through a big ole feral hog, with large diameter damage all the way AND a entrance AND a exit wound, also.

Oh, I've been watching what you guys say, and you ain't wrong! When you get 400+ grains moving along, it's a hammer.


I just like exploiting versatility. That big ol' case can do a lot of things.


The funny thing is that I've gotten to where I like the .45-70 with a 435 to 500 grain bullet moving along at 1500 to 1700 fps. I feel well armed.

I know you probably feel that's too fast, but remember, I'm still evolving in this big-bore thing.

I know in my little .44 mag rifle, the WFN really impresses me. At 1575 fps, a 300 grain WFN digs deep! I have zipped them stem to stern, and the bullet is probably still rattling around in the woods.

This turned into a good discussion, I am learning more than I thought I could on cast bullets, etc... Good show, men. Carry on!!

My favorite hunk of lead, Lee 310 gr gas check for the 44mag and 444 cast at 30:1. Killed deer with both chamberings very efficiently and certainly no need for a jacketed counterpart whatsoever.

It has a way of doing that The main point though is to bring our new guy O.P. up to speed on realizing how much real capability he has with the Marlin 1895SS. AND that one does NOT need to have high velocity with one to do some heavy duty long range critter killing capability!


...and think about it! The powder ya save going a bit lower vel can be used to put out a few more rounds of shooting fun

Those are some nice looking bullets!

These guys have done far more than I have with cast bullets, and one more I would give a listen to is "Sharpsguy".

Indeed, a very interesting discussion! For more then a dozen years now, I have been using a 1895 XLR. I have used nothing but soft cast,(95% lead, 3% antimony, 2% tin) gced bullets in this gun. I have shot deer at ranges well over 200 yds., bear at distances over 150 yds., every animal has been a 1 shot kill, using a Kieth design, Rapine mold bullet (drops 333gr.). Every shot has been a clear thru shot! I keep wishing that I'd have at least one bullet, not go thru, so I can see how it flattens. This year, I'm going to use a new bullet, from the NOE HP mold, that drops 324 gr., in hopes that maybe I will find a bullet in one of my carcasses, just so I can see how it flattens!
A very good thing about the .45-70, no blood shot meat! Ya can eat right up to the hole!

OH YES, my Marlin does not like the Hornaday "Leverevealution" either!

You speak of the lack of bloodshot meat, and that has been my experience with cast bullets. Not so with the jacketed bullets at high velocity.

Though capable of taking much larger game than my .30-30 (another favorite), I see much less trauma at the wound site.

A late season doe from a few years back in a narrow river slough, shot was aprox 115 yds with my 444 and 310 gr cast bullet.Wound channel was only golf ball size and no blood shot meat to contend with.Good cast bullets work extremely well when properly alloyed for the task at hand..

WOW! Thanks for all the comments and insight. I've been talking to a buddy of mine who is getting into molding his own bullets. He has a Marlin 45-70 with the 22" barrel that he's been using factor bullets on. He's cast for other calibers but not the 45-70 and just picked up a couple of different molds...we're going to have a little fun!
A little update - finally got out to our cabin and did a little shooting. Fired some JHP Remington 300's as well as a few of the Leverlutions. Had no chambering problems like some speak of with the Leverlution. Used a small 5" paper plate tacked to a big pine tree for a target and put 6 rounds into it. Then put a soda can ontothe tree with the bottom end out and hit two out of three on it...last one was a tad low. Only 30 yards, but with aging eyes and the stock open sites I was pleased. It's funny... I've always shot better with an open sight than with a scope. I assume it's the field of vision combined with my own specticles.

It's going to be a learning curve with ol big bore to learn how to reach out and touch something, after shooting the '06 and 300 Win Mag for a number of years... but with my friend loading them up for us, it will be fun.

Again - thanks for all the replies. I'm learning a lot!

A doe is the best eatin meat as far as venison goes IMHO, Woody. But I couldn't pass up this feller . . . This is the deer that was the recipient of the recovered bullet I posted earlier, you can kinda see the entry hole on the right shoulder. BTW - that is me pulling on the rope, at that point in my life I was 6'-2" and about 280# to give some scale . . .

For your 45-70, get a 480 grain flat nosed bullet and cast it 50/50 wheel weights and lead, or 30-1 lead to tin. Drive it at 1200 to 1250 fps, and you are set for anything. I have shot through and through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bull bison at 84 yards, and through a bull elk lengthwise with that load out of my 45-70 Sharps. Deer and hogs are simply a slam dunk. The only one of those bullets I have ever recovered was from a cow kudu on a center chest shot at 100 yards, and the bullet was at the base of her tail. The bullet still weighs 478 of its original 480 grains.

Nice buck you got there Otter. We don't have too many Whitetail here in Idaho... well at least in the areas I hunt in the SW - most are up North of here. We mainly have the mule deer.
That Sharps must be a fun rifle to shoot sharpsguy... I've fondled many at local gunshows, lol.
I think my biggest challenge will be to figure out the drop on particular bullets. My "point-blank" range on a 300 Win Mag is obviously quite different. The bullet power is obviously there... it's just that drop that I will need to figure out with practice at the range. I really don't want to put a scope on it if I can avoid it. Where I hunt is pretty brushy and has thick timber as well...a 100 yard shot would be pretty common. But there are some areas you come across where longer shots would be required. Maybe just setting myself a "max" range that I feel comfortable taking a shot is one way to approach it and over time maybe that range will lengthen a bit. When you compare bullet drops (granted they are lighter factory loads) on computer ballistic programs that big ol arch is a bit intimidating to deal with as you "learn" your rifle and bullet's capabilities. Depending on my ability to stalk the critter given the particular cover, wind direction, etc., a closer move may be possible. I'm not looking for the trophy buck or bull - I just want meat in the freezer. Certainly the talk of lack of blood-shot meet sounds great, as well. Disappointing when you lose some meat, for sure.