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A-36 and 1018 has meaning.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Well. This thread started out as a testament to the 270 . And now here is an argument about hardness of steel. I guess I missed something in the middle

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Funny stuff here. Mild steel is just as fair to use as about a thousand other terms we use daily and everyone understands exactly what we mean. In industries that use spec steel for everything they do, the vague terminology of "mild steel" probably doesn't cut it but when use to differentiate between steel that is alloyed or heat treated it means a lot. Not sure how this term even came up as nothing on a modern rifle is "mild steel" anyway. Bolts are made of various alloys, most common is 4140. Actions are made of martenistic grades of stainless steel or usually 4140 or some other high strength alloy that is similar. Not sure what bolts are treated to strength wise but certainly well over 100 KSI. As for brazing, I haven't seen any silver braze that exceeds 80 KSI but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The stuff I use is 70 KSI and it requires a LOT of heat to use so it probably would make the bolt softer than not at the point where it is brazed. I am sure they take care not to soften the head of the bolt which is the business end anyway.

Mod 700 bolts work out pretty well for the most part and the failure rate is certainly lower than 1%. But I am in the camp with Phil when it comes to the choice of what type of rifle to use on dangerous game or even on an expensive hunt where there is no replacement handy.

My custom actions have one piece bolts- it's a nice to have that much peace of mind anyway. I do hunt with a 700 all the time and the bolt still has the original bolt handle but a replaced extractor, bushed firing pin hole and lightened firing pin. It works perfect.


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Originally Posted by ColdTriggerFinger
Well. This thread started out as a testament to the 270 . And now here is an argument about hardness of steel. I guess I missed something in the middle


It just doesn't pay to take a bathroom break. This place can get exciting and informative all in the same thread.


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Let's not lose sight of the point I was trying to make: silver braze methods can be very effective when done properly.

Mild steel is a low-carbon ungraded steel - which few people here could seriously distort by hand if a bolt handle were made of it (which they obviously aren't); a decent silver brazed joint is stronger than common low carbon (mild) steel. Period.

American Welding Society claims I'm wrong.....I was low

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Bigwhoop, how rude of you, going off topic like this! I see this tread gotten a life of its own, now the question is will it top the Sniper Rifle thread?


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I don't post here much but read with interest the article by the PH and the commentary by those in the forum. I started to question what kind of piece of junk I bought back in the 80's. I typically don't beat on my rifles too badly and am a bit anal about cleanliness. Today I decided to check the function of my M700 to see if I could replicate some of the failures some others were experiencing in the feeding/functioning department. In short, I tried to beat on it a bit. The test mule in question is a M700 BDL. The serial number on the receiver is B6764XXX and the barrel stamp is "H". I think the date of manufacture is about 1987. I bought the rifle new and the round count through the barrel is approximately 1850 as best I can tell when reviewing handloading data from the past. Caliber is .300 Win mag. The rifle is box stock with the exception of a little bit of trigger tweaking. It is currently wearing it's 3rd stock (factory BDL), on it's 2nd scope ( shook the innards loose on the 1st Redfield) and it's 2nd bottom metal (broke the original floor plate tab). After a practice session of about 20 cycles of manipulating the bolt as fast as I could, 2 rounds were used to check functioning; an empty case was chambered and a dummy round inserted into the magazine. The COL of the dummy round was 3.542 as indicated by the dial caliper. With rifle at waist level and hand on bolt, I operated the action as fast as I could with the empty in the chamber and dummy in the magazine and here is what I found:

In 20 hard and fast cycles all empty brass in the chamber ejected without a hitch and the dummy round chambered flawlessly.

When working the bolt hard and fast with the dummy round chambered after the 1st empty round was ejected, 6 failures were experienced.

Failures included 3 rounds that were re chambered,2 that stove piped and 1 that actually jammed on the face of the receiver.

Condition of the fired case was pretty good. Rim showed a little roughness but the body and belt were in pretty good shape. Condition of the dummy round was a bit worst. Bullet nose deformed from hitting the receiver. The body and rim showed considerable more wear than the empty. ????

Total cycles of the bolt with the empty/dummy was a bit over 40.

After removing the bolt, very small pieces of brass were noticed on the bolt face.

I know the sample size is way too small to be definitive but is interesting to me none the less. I have a late manufacture M700 short action and a New Haven M70 Featherweight CFR in 6.5x55 I'm going to look at next. Don't have any Ruger 77's to try........yet!

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bartman: Conclusions? smile

Rifle actions can sometimes behave in a different manner when operated easily and sedately, than they do operated hard and fast.....and sometimes differently if operated from the shoulder than at waist level(this more due to how we operate it from that position than anything else).

Did I read it right that you did your test with only two rounds but not a full magazine?

Still, it seems to me that 6 failures out of 20 attempts is pretty high.

I did much the same thing in live round rapid fire with a Rem 700 KS MR 7 Rem Mag and full magazine and it worked fine.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I've done a real test (full magazine) with several 700's with no problems, but sometimes such tests do reveal feeding flaws--though in my experience they happen more often in controlled-feed rifles that have been rebarreled to some other cartridge than the original. Have also seen some factory CRF's that basically wouldn't feed at all, usually chambered for rounds not shaped like a .30-06 or 7mm Remington Magnum. As an example, one was a Ruger 77 Mark II in .350 Remington Magnum. It took an entire afternoon for me to get to feed decently--but not nearly as slickly as the average Remington 700 .30-06.

One thing I've started to wonder about 700 bolt handles coming off: How many hunters who've experienced this mostly hunt in wetter climates? What I'm guessing is an imperfect brazing job will weaken due to rust forming between the handle and bolt body, and undermine the brazing.

I live in Montana, which overall is pretty dry, and when I have hunted in wetter weather it's been on visits of at most two weeks to other places. Which may be why I've never had a 700 bolt handle come off--and may not.

I also know a gunsmith in West Virginia, one of those wetter places, who's had to replace quite a few 700 extractors over the years. Part of the reason they break there, he says, is because hunters don't consistently protect their rifles with some sort of oil or other rust preventative. The chambers are often pitted, and the extractors are often pitted as well. Extraction is more difficult due to the pitted chamber, and the pitted extractors sometimes break.


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Condensing all this information, if I want as much reliablity in a rifle as I can get get, and reasonably good accuracy, what do I start with, and what do I do to it? Cartridges would be 30/06, maybe 7/08, very unlikely to be a belted cartridge.

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For absolute reliability I prefer a 98 Mauser action, either commercial or a good military conversion. That's just me, but an article on why will be appearing in SPORTS AFIELD soon.


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I just can't help but chuckle. I guess I would have been surprised if that WASN'T your answer, but what is so amusing is that after all these years, a 98 Mauser in 30/06 or 7x57 (please don't tell Ingwe I said that) is likely one of the best choices under the sun, taking reliability, gas handling, and a bunch of other things into consideration.
I am talking for the average relatively serious hunter who beats the bush up and down and around the Rocky Mountains, not the long range guys who shoot stuff at distances measured in fractions of miles or the specialist like Pat (Scenarshooter).

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Fred, oddly enough when I was still at the LGS me and the gunsmiths had the same conversation and came up with the same conclusions. If I was gonna have one big game rifle, use it hard and long�it would be on a 98...


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I've done a real test (full magazine) with several 700's with no problems, but sometimes such tests do reveal feeding flaws--though in my experience they happen more often in controlled-feed rifles that have been rebarreled to some other cartridge than the original. Have also seen some factory CRF's that basically wouldn't feed at all, usually chambered for rounds not shaped like a .30-06 or 7mm Remington Magnum. As an example, one was a Ruger 77 Mark II in .350 Remington Magnum. It took an entire afternoon for me to get to feed decently--but not nearly as slickly as the average Remington 700 .30-06.

One thing I've started to wonder about 700 bolt handles coming off: How many hunters who've experienced this mostly hunt in wetter climates? What I'm guessing is an imperfect brazing job will weaken due to rust forming between the handle and bolt body, and undermine the brazing.

I live in Montana, which overall is pretty dry, and when I have hunted in wetter weather it's been on visits of at most two weeks to other places. Which may be why I've never had a 700 bolt handle come off--and may not.

I also know a gunsmith in West Virginia, one of those wetter places, who's had to replace quite a few 700 extractors over the years. Part of the reason they break there, he says, is because hunters don't consistently protect their rifles with some sort of oil or other rust preventative. The chambers are often pitted, and the extractors are often pitted as well. Extraction is more difficult due to the pitted chamber, and the pitted extractors sometimes break.



John assuming you are right about wet, dirty places, rust,gunk, etc etc.....isn't that the reason the Mauser design found so much favor in the first place,and over the years for reliable function in wet,tropical conditions,as well as up north? Assuming again, of course that the 98 was set up correctly in the first place.

My memory is that Paul Mauser also designed and patented other action styles reminiscent of PF Model 70's and 700's, neither of which proved as reliable as the 98.

The times I have seen Rem 700 extractors fail the extractor did not break, but pulled through the brass rim; PF M70 and Savage extractors just broke.

Seems to me that brazing on bolt handles just adds to the (potential)drama. smile

I agree not all CRF's are created equal....lots of them suffer from sloppy and indifferent assembly,cast parts,and ill fitting magazines and followers. Any of this stuff can give a guy fits.

Must be getting fussy and cranky in my old age. smile


I have a pair of "new" (to me) pre 64 M70 FW's that I will take to the range and run hard to see if they work.Far as I can tell they are all factory original.

Last edited by BobinNH; 07/19/14.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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What the hell is a "Ganyana" anyways?



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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
For absolute reliability I prefer a 98 Mauser action, either commercial or a good military conversion. That's just me, but an article on why will be appearing in SPORTS AFIELD soon.


Me too. I can't wait to read the article. I've got four identical 98s that are my go to rifles for various reasons. It started with calling a gunsmith about 10 years ago to build a Mauser .375 that was more the weight of the average .338 (I was thinking 7.5-8 pounds). The rifle came in and was 6.5 pounds bare, but recoil, while heavy is tolerable, so it has become a favorite. Now have identical setups at identical weights and balance in .270, .30-06 and a 9.3x62 in the works.

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Bob,

The first "claw" extractor in Mausers was in the 1893. Before that they mostly resembled the post-64 Model 70's, but required more frequent cleaning to keep working reliably.

From what I understand (not having seen it myself) 700 extractors don't usually break when extracting, but while being pushed over the case's rim. They're actually designed to grip the rim more firmly if the case sticks in the chamber, as does the 98 extractor--and is why both extractors sometimes tear off part of the rim.

This isn't true of the claw extractors on the Model 70, Ruger 77 CRF actions, or many other CRF's. I have seen some of those "jump" the rim on a stuck case, but the case can usually still be extracted by closing the bolt and then pressing hard against the front of the extractor while opening the bolt again.

700 extractors are easily replaced, in fact more easily than a claw extractor, if you know what you're doing. I've taken an extra 98 claw extractor along on a number of hunts with 98-actioned rifles, and never had to use it--but have also hunted with 700's here and there without taking along a spare extractor, and never had one break.

Have heard that if a 700 extractor is going to break, it often does so within the first few boxes of ammo, probably because it was defective from the factory--another reason to shoot a new rifle quite a bit before hunting with it!


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My two M700's were purchased in Southwest Idaho and only used in this arid location. I've had three bolt handles fall off in total but I never mention the third as I beat it with a piece of 2X4 so can't really blame the rifle - NOT a hot load btw but jammed by the locking safety somehow, I never did figure out how it jammed. But the two that did fall off just plain fell off with no undue force applied at all, just what one would use to chamber a properly sized round. Chamber, close bolt, handle comes away from the bolt body. Surprise! wink

The cause is really pretty simple - an improper mating of the two surfaces and/or sloppy brazing. If the concave surface of the handle does not match the convex surface of the bolt properly the attachment is only at one or two small points. Combine that with sloppy brazing and there's the recipe for a bolt handle falling off.

The gunsmith that fixed both of them simply ground the bolt handle to mate completely with the bolt body and silver soldered it back on. He told me that with a properly soldered on handle that the handle would bend before the solder joint would break and I'm sure he's right.


It's not that the 700 is a terrible rifle but it has design flaws that, if not properly maintained or not properly assembled in the first place, provide several points of failure in the operating cycle of feeding, firing, extracting and ejecting. A two piece enclosed trigger that can fire on safety release, an ejector pin that can jam, a tiny little spring on the bolt stop and a two piece bolt and handle. If properly assembled and kept relatively clean they do provide years of trouble free service as several million users can verify - including me on the majority of 700's I've owned. We should probably give kudos to Remington that they made so many and have had relatively so few problems.


Any rifle will have possible points of failure. My Model 70 from their Custom Shop would stick the ejector in the slot. There was a burr on the edge of the slot that prevented the blade from rising every time. Some 200 and 600 grit paper on the slot and ejector blade fixed that forever but it was certainly irksome to pay that kind of money for something that wasn't function checked sufficiently at the factory.

But it one expects to put their skin on the line it is definitely a good idea to eliminate as many points of failure as possible right from the start. Most of the bitching about our rifles(and you can throw in self defense handguns here) is about theoretical or possible flaws but Mr. Murphy loves to test theories and possibilities.

I bought a Yugo 24/47 Mauser a couple of years ago and I can see why folks love their 98 Mausers. Even though it is definitely "rough and ready" - THAT is a frickin' CRF rifle! It was built for the 8x57 and it is just as it came from factory. I can't double feed it for love nor money. I can just kiss the ejector coming back and lay the empty case on top of the next round but that has to be done deliberately, any normal operation of the bolt throws the case clear and any half measures just feed the fired case back in the chamber. Any half feeding of the next round won't jam it, it absolutely does not leave the magazine until the extractor has hold of it. It groups about 2 1/2" on a really good day and has a trigger that finally breaks after a l-o-n-g travel, but I really like that rifle. It's solid with a capital S.

Lots of rifles work well because, honestly, we just don't stress them as much as a PH going after dangerous game - or a soldier in the field might have done. But even with moderate "hardships" in the field I've had pine needles get in the action, a Model 70 safety in "bolt locked" position get popped off by a backpack and open the bolt, smokestacks on feeding (Model 700 still chambered as it came from the factory), and I haven't been on near as many adventures as a lot of folks here.


Oh well, not telling anybody anything they don't know, just sort of rambling as I drink my coffee. wink


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I'd love to see an article that describes strengths and weaknesses of various rifles, with detailed analysis and actual tests (feeding, gas handling, etc). Probably not what the rifle manufacturers would like to see though.

I've been keeping a running list in my head of real and perceived issues from across the interwebs and my limited experience:
  • Howa/Witherbee = bolt stop screw breaks
  • 700 = extractor, brazed handle, new trigger breaks in half
  • Salvage = feeds like crap, trigger deactivates if pushed laterally
  • Marlin X = bolt binds/jams if worked really hard
  • Win 70 = brazed handle, extractor bends
  • T/C Venture = trigger breaks in half
  • Tikkler = poor gas handling
  • Ruger 77/Hawkeye = best SS hard use rifle ever grin


Jason






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