Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Game - and ballistics

Can animals understand ballistics? Do they carry a Chronograph? Wear Kevlar?

So much obsession is on the headstamp, fps, ft. lbs, B.C., etc.....yes it matters in terminal performance, but truth be told, most animals WILL die when vitals are punched with a decent bullet.

Marksmanship comes before ballistics = hit vitals and it does not make as much difference as folks debate, after that happens. All bullets drop, drift, and slow down. Yet they still kill - when punching vitals. KNOW where your rifle will hit, and use a POA that will give a POI on vitals.

One merely has to look at the field results on say the 6.5 Grendel forum to realize most any standard round is plenty sufficient on most non-dangerous North American Game, at typical field ranges.

Shot placement + bullet selection.

Now about that ideal caliber... Lol

Understanding ballistics, using a chronograph, etc., makes that all important POA/POI that much easier.

I'm not near as obsessed most, but knowing and understanding a few things about what you're shooting, just makes hitting those vitals that much easier.

Ballistics is just part of the fun. It is also a legitimate part of getting a rifle to hit the intended target. Marksmanship is where it is really at! I'd love to see more discussion on techniques for field position shooting.

Bullets are most effective if they are delivered within their designed terminal velocity range. Also within that range there seems to be a range that imparts the greatest effect on living tissue. Hit a deer with a blazing fast bullet and it is liable to shed its jacket (or petals from a monometal) and whiz right through, seemingly with very little effect on the animal. Too slow and lack of penetration comes into play.
Ballistics helps you deliver the bullets where you want with the amount of desired energy. And yeah, it's fun.

I agree. After the gack, we need to shoot.

I think one good way to practice field positions is to make it hard on yourself. For example, does anyone practice from the off hand position at 200-300 yards? Point is not that you will take that shot on an animal, but that it makes the same shot at 100 yards seem relatively easy.

Variations on this same theme are endless because BG animals show up in all kinds of conditions and circumstances,and the ability to hit from field positions can make a difference in your success.

I agree PRM and Bob. Good posts..

1) Hunting = Break the shoulders with a good bullet, take a few pics and grab a sharp knife.
2) At camp = Talk the BS about BC FPS OAL POA POI MOA PBR bla-bla-bla� and drink good whiskey.

I do and all the BR guys at the range look at me like I left my pizzle hangin out and mumble a lot.


But, it does work. The forkhorn buck I killed at 150 yards off hand opening day last Fall was a whole lot easier shot to make because of the practice.

There ya go!


Gunnut that's a good pic!

WTF, you don't play cards? How many of you guys practice from your weak shoulder? gunnut's post reminded me of the rifle I sold to him and the shot I took on my '11 mulie buck with that rifle. Had to shoot right handed that time off my pack. It pays to practice every imaginable position, left and right handed....

Camp-drink-poker-dominos-
Bullshitt, its whats for dinner...

I hear ya..

Pretty sure it was 'Stick that said "If you can shoot, everything works. If you can't, nothing does".

That being said, there isn't any pffuukking way I'm bringing a 6.5 Grendel on a timberline elk hunt.

Now see what you're done? You've done and ruined cartridge discussion/debates by bringing in logic where there ain't no place for it. And you could have single-handedly destroyed basis for mega-magnums.

Fact is put a bullet from any reasonable cartridge into any animal's heart and/or lungs, and it will die. Cartridge is immaterial. That oxygenated blood flow to any animal's brain has been permanently interrupted will kill every animal every time.

I had a poster try to tell me that elk can keep going sans their hearts pumping oxygenated blood. I think he was watching too much "Walking Dead".

BTW, it took me some wisdom gaining before I figured out that a .308 Win will kill big game just as surely as a .300 Win Man as long as bullets from each destroy pumping parts or the oxygenation parts.

And it took me even more wisdom before I figured out that gun/hunting magazines are entertainment, and most gun/hunting writers that come up cockamamie formulae for determine perfect gun for each species of big game are really full of bull.

I was done with hunting magazines when Boddington came up with cockamamie scheme for assigning best cartridge for each species of North American big game. Madonna's. "Like a Virgin" made more sense.

Good posts all, figured I'd get some juices flowing.

My first rifle and deer kill was using a 7RM, since then I have dropped deer at a 1/4 mile w/a 6BR.

I get FAR more practice using smaller rounds that beat me up less, and my ears are thankful as well.

Miss vitals and things do not work out so well. Yes, I too have poursed over tables and used calculators to ad nauseaum, but it often boils down to placement using a good bullet, as MOST animals are shot at distances that any legal reasonable cartridge is very capable.

Tanner, a Grendel would not be my first choice on elk, nor if in canyon country, but if it was all I had, I would proceed. Recall our LR specialist - J. Burns, dumping elk at 1/2 a mile using a 243......a Grendel is more than capable using the right bullet.

But why not use a 6.5BR

Keep in mind the 6.5G reference was intended to illustrate that a good amount of game has been cleany dropped using a round most people view as anemic. The amount of speed/energy needed is likely far less then what most hunters are carrying. Nothing wrong with using more than minimum, just illustrating what happens when using a GOOD bullet thru vitals can do. Same thing happens when guys plink/poke at animals at double and triple the distance of what most consider a long shot.

Again, good feedback by all. Love to see Mule Deer do an article on field shot placement, and use random shooters using rifles from low powered scoped rifles in modest recoiling rounds, to the hubble scoped magnums. Results would be interesting on vital hit scores from field positions.

I shared with a friend how I wanted to take a head of big game with my old Winchester 401 Self Loader. He immediately began to admonish me about the extremely low BC of the bullets available for that old round. I knew he had gone too far around the bend when he was so concerned about the BC of a stubby little 40 caliber bullet in a round best suited to tree stands and still hunting with 50 yard or less shots.

I practice off hand at ranges to 150 nearly every time I shoot. But I like to shoot just to shoot, without the desire to just prep for a hunt. It turned out that on the last hunt of last season I had to either take an absurdly long shot offhand or watch them run away and climb back down the mtn I had just about killed myself getting up. I opted to shoot, and with one sighter to get the distance right, I drilled the heart/lungs of the doe. Never worked so damned hard for a doe in my life, nor have I attempted such a long off-hander at an animal. Was it irresponsible? Hard to say, as it felt right at the time and worked out perfectly. I am supremely confident at shots I shoot at animals anymore, or I don't shoot. Certainly, I have heard much condemning here on the fire of what I attempted. But it was my shooting, and I accepted responsibility for the outcome, whether it was favorable or not. Turned out I grew even more confident in my ability to buckle down and do it right when it matters.

Oh, and I love the gack. Its exhaustive study has made me a far better marksman than I was, and I dig the numbers and what they mean. I don't believe the hype anymore when the next greatest thing comes along, and I understand better now that it is the wound that kills, rather than the bullet, or its energy, or its weight, or velocity.

Gee........doesn't bullet weight, mass,diameter, expansion characteristics,penetration,impact velocity,rpm's, bone breaking (immobilizing effect),deep and wide wound channels, count for anything?


By the time we finish with this ballistic relativism and reach its highly illogical conclusion, the 243 will be as good a Cape Buffalo or brown bear cartridge as a 375 H&H....and we know that ain't gonna happen.

The reason we get so mixed up with this stuff is that we shoot a lot of game of 400 pounds and under with a bunch of cartridges of pretty comparable ballistics and bullet weights; don't see much difference,and conclude that bigger is never better. I doubt this holds true if game is 2-4 times bigger.

In the long run,and against a wide range of game, I don't think that dog will hunt.

Right again Bob.

Over the past few yrs, IF people pay attention, we have been hearing,
1 the 308 is just as good as the 06,
2 the 06 is just as good as the 300 mags.

3 the 6.5 Creedmore is just as good as the 270 (or better - uhhh)
4 the 260 is just as good as the 280,
5 the 260 is just as good or better than the 308.

THEREFORE the 6.5 Creedmore is just as good as the 300 WM

Now others could be added to this list.

There is a rule in logic and geometry - 2 things = to the same thing, are = to each other.

Now based on that RULE, the 6.5 Creedmore is just as god as the 300 mags.


Sorry Bob and others - I never bought into that, nor drank that kool aid.

I've been participating on the Fire almost 4 yrs now, I STILL love and have reasons to prefer the 300 WM over MANY 'lesser cartridges'. I'm not saying the 300 is preferred for 100-200 lb. whitetail but larger BG.

I could go on but that is my point.

I haven't chased after or killed anything bigger than about 600-700lbs. 30 cal Heavies at '06 speeds have done the job just fine, as long as the shot placement has been there. Marginal hits have produced less than perfect results.

I am supposing, and only supposing, that the results would have been remarkably similar with most sporting rounds a few steps up and a few steps down. Bigger gack numbers wouldn't have made marginal hits better ones.

When I go after bigger, I may use bigger. I know Shoemaker has high praise for heavy partitions at 30-06 speeds, but I would feel undergunned with any 30 cal if I ever hunt big coastal bears.

As you say, Bob, certainly there is a place for big guns, big bullets, big cartridge capacities, big energy numbers; they have significance.I just don't think that place is anywhere here in the Lower 48. Nothing I have seen has caused me to question this.
The other extreme is usually the case for me, because I often hear about much smaller guns, bullets, etc, doing what I do with mine.

Lotsa funny schit here and it's always the Charcoal Burning/Ping Ball Flinging Faction that delivers the best comedy,mainly because it's served obliviously...while they proffer their "best".

I reckon it's easy for me to say,because I've killed schit with everything from CB Caps to 378Wby,with most stops in between. That includes 100's and 100's of rifles and there prolly ain't too many boolits I've not flung. In overview and if only obviously,not all wares is equal. Hint.

Want some INSTANT Humor?!? Ask a "300 Winchester Guy" which boolit,what speed,what zero,what engagement distance(s) and how they's arranging POA/POI intersections. Take 'er to the Bank,that the "answers" are gonna be funnier than [bleep]...especially when asked in summation "why a 300Winny?!?". Funny schit! Let 'em knock it right the [bleep] outta da' Park by asking them,"how many 300Winny barrels have you shot out in "all" those years of "use"?". Imagination and Pretend is suplizing "real" to these folks. Laffin'!

Putting good boolits,in a good location of a GOOD Critter,is veddy veddy EASILY arranged. Yet on the average(which is welllllllll shy of average),the Window Licking Charcoal Burning Ping Pong Ball Launching Faction,sucks heavy ass at arranging POA/POI intersections and that'd be an UBERunderstatement. UBERhint. UBERlaffin'!

Many are enthralled with launch speeds and their launch "energy",which is moot designators...unless one is in a Muzzle Blast Tournament. As per Terminal Affects,projectile placement and projectile integrity are the first two-thirds of The Terminal Trilogy,which remains a constant pyramid of facts and are arranged thusly in their relative importance of turning living schit,into dead schit:

1) Placement
2) Projectile Integrity
3) Headstamp

It is a curious constant,that most folks is over headstamped and under boolited,replete with lackluster abilities in the reliable arrangement of POA/POI intersections. But it IS funny!

Back in the days of UKD,noone was quicker to add case capacity to Ping Pong Ball BC's,than I. Why?!? Because that was the ONLY [bleep] move available. LRF's and slickery boolits weren't available,so to hedge bets,one practiced daily in range determinations and twisted turrets in accordance to same,in order to capably understand the limits of a given platform. That'd include alotta barrels,alotta boolits and alotta powder. Few could begin to comprehend the obscene round counts involved. Hint.

Anywhoooo...Today a gent with an OEM over da' counter 243Win stoked with good boolits(105 kiss) and a LRF will slap the [bleep] dogschit outta the gent with a 30-378 rollin' UKD and Mart Mart Fodder. Again,pardon my shooting both chamberings more than a bunch. Hint.

It is amusinger than [bleep],how amazingly few folks are able to connect dots and see the big picture. Good boolits,in good places,simply and RELIABLY do GREAT things. Such constants is easily arranged and there is no better or more fun way to arrange same,than by shooting something that is FUN to shoot. Read that again. Hint.

By squirting slickery boolits of repute in a FUN chambering,the "odds" of utterly reliable Terminal Affects sky-rocket through the [bleep] roof. An oft overlooked byproduct of same,is that FUN chamberings will often slap the schit outta Charcoal Burning Ping Pong Ball Launchers in impact velocity,drop and drift...as well as "energy",for them enthralled with such moot designators.

I've had a LOT of gents come visit and I mean a LOT of gents and I wish I actually knew the number of rifles involved,but it's beyond 100's and 100's. That being said and the obvious of the initial wares running the relative gamut,the 2nd Trip is ALWAYS tooled in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy different accords,than their first. There are no Blued/Walnut Dipschittery,no windag-adjustable rear "mounts",no CDS or glass less real turrets,nor are there Ping Pong Balls. Another curious constant is that case capacity goes down,BC goes up and so does the actual round count of the platform. Much thunkery is gived to COAl,twist rate and the melding of projectiles to same. Funny how it works and I mean FUNNY.

You hand one of them gents who've seen the light a Blued/Walnut WAM wearing slick scoped 300Winny stoked with Mart Mart Fodder and they'd throw it on the ground and piss on it.



Just sayin'.

Good talk.

Laffin'!









(Addendum: For more Window Licking Humor)

It is yet another intellesting constant,that dissenters always bemoan a headstamp first,yet never cite the "offending" boolit.

For conversation...it's tough to keep a .243" 85X in a Moose and I'm talkin' through shoulders.

There are farrrrrrrrrrrrr more boolits shy of the Grade,than there are headstamps shy of same,but one hinges on the other,if only obviously.

Hint.

HuntnShoot: I don't entirely disagree. It's when someone tries to convince me that a 243 is as good an elk cartridge as a 30/06(with equivalent) bullets, I blink.

jwall & bob, you folks have the right idea.. I have to laugh when some one kills a couple head of game elk, deer what ever, with a caliber and pronounce it suitable based on a couple incidents..
I well remember the first couple head of game I shot with a .243.
quick kills.. I decided the current gunhack must be right, the .243 was some kind of divine death ray. A couple dozen head later, I decided for my $ there are far better big game calibers
out there.. I still shoot the .243, but not so much on big game.

Momentum, the ability of a bullet to penetrate, is a function of velocity and mass.

Match bullet to game at a suitable velocity at where game is to be shot, and you're good to go.

A suitable bullet fired from a .308 Win will kill big game farther than most shooters can shoot.

Cartridge debates are fun...but biology wins every time.

Jus' sayin'...

Momentum, the ability of a bullet to penetrate, is a function of velocity and mass.

Match bullet to game at a suitable velocity at where game is to be shot, and you're good to go.

A suitable bullet fired from a .308 Win will kill big game farther than most shooters can shoot.

Cartridge debates are fun...but biology wins every time.

Jus' sayin'...

SloppyPoozy,

Neither velocity nor mass,take into account projectile integrity.

The only things you shoot are your mouth and Imagination...though in no particular [bleep] order. Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!

Boxer, I see this all the time in my home states annual bear season. Most guys seem to have some variation of a .30 caliber and 150 grain Core-Lokts. They all seem to believe you shoot bear in the shoulder too. Which is fine, but not with light C n C's. I don't know how many wounded bears we haven't found because of guys having too much headstamp and not enough bullet, but it's not been rare. Guys believe as long as the headstamp reads '30-06' or '.300 mag' they're good to go. They don't even give bullets a thunk.

Now THIS is true therapy, Laffin' my Boxers off!!!

Jwall - I guess you cannot be overgunned - I mean dead is dead.

If you shoot a 300 as good as a 243, you might be the exception to the masses.

If a good well-placed smaller caliber bullet kills as well as a BIGGER bullet, does the headstamp make one inferior or superior to the other?

2nd question: Can a tape measure accurately predict the probability of bringing a woman to climax?

Now if we reverse the common logic, if a hunter kills cleanly with a 243, does that make him a better shot than the chap using a 300?

Enjoyed the feedback, serious and the humor.

65 -

I ain't alone in seeing the FALLACY of your reasoning (?).

There is game that DESERVE more tissue destruction for a 'quicker' , humane kill.

Also with less tissue destruction (internal) it takes bigger animals longer to run out of oxygenated blood to result in death. In that 'longer' time those larger animals WILL be able to go 'farther' and could wind up in terrain WE wouldn't want to have to get them out of , deep ravines or downfall timber etc.

I am also talking PROPERLY constructed bullets for the game.

You use what you want, just don't try to con me into what I know better.

I'm probably OUT of this discussion.

dooshmike,

I'm in the fortunate position,that folks is always trying to "tell" me things and "show" me things...none of which ever quite goes they way they was "thinking".(grin)

I've zooked alotta boolits,outta alotts chamberings and have lonnnngggggggg given boolits more than a passing thunk.

Never was much into [bleep] around and results never don't not intellest me.

In fairness,I've never had more than 15 or 20 thousand core-lokts on hand at any one time,but their role ain't as Critter Getters,but rather FireForm Fodder,as their schit profile will kiss [bleep] near any throat.

Just sayin'.











'BR,

Oh I know I'm the exception to alotta Rules,which is why I'm slow to use me as a barometer of relative evaluation,beings it is soooooooooooo [bleep] "unfair". I've shot with more than a schitload of gents and it is never a "surprise" to see their wares get tossed offa cliff after a Maiden Voyage and the blueprints REALLY change on the next pass. It is well beyond PREDICTABLE. Noone is tough enough to connect that many [bleep] dots,in such rapid fashion(first poke) and say "nope...hitting do not interest me". NOONE. Hint.

I've long been good with a multitude of .30's in a vast assortment of blueprints/case designs and have gunned the gamut more than [bleep] thoroughly. 'Course I've shot alotta other diameters too and that is why a .30 ain't at the top of my list. Read that again. Hint.

Headstamp inferiority complexes,typically run from the top down,rather than the bottom up. Read that again. Hint. Window Licking Ping Pong Launchin' Charcoal Burners,devise all sortsa contrived Dumb [bleep] to salve their "experience","knowledge" and "results". It's boringly predictable in their justifications of "Theory" and gets funnier than [bleep],if'n you can dupe one into showcasing the "Application" portion of the equation. CBS UKD is as big of a Vulcan Mind [bleep] to them,as KD with a few sighters. Add some wind and you'd better be settin' down,or you'd hurt yourself laughing.

Fun to play Warp Nine Thirty and squirt some purty meaningful BC's at Watch The [bleep] Out speeds. 'Course none of the 300 Winchester Guys have enough [bleep] brains,to connect them glaringly [bleep] obvious dots. Thirty-Five Hundo Skinners do not suck and 5 Mils to 1K,might be a hoot.

Just sayin'.



I'd be VERY [bleep] impressed,if anyone has flogged on the 300 Winny chambering more than I. Let alone the 300-Bee or Super. BT/DT and got ALL the [bleep] T-shirts and then some. Hint.

All boolits setting on the shelf is equal and that is the only time they are equal. Plum [bleep] amazing how few can grasp the concept of impact speed and projectile integrity,conjoined with placement. Meld the trio and schit is over,before it even starts...yet noone tools in accordance to arrange same. VERY [bleep] funny schit! As per always,it's never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't and it's yet another intellesting tidbit...that them who shoot the most,tend to tote farrrrrrrr less headstamp and more boolit,than them who shoot the least. Read that again. Hint.

Impact velocity/drop/drift are the greatest factors of concern,yet the farthest from anyone's radar. Funny how folks "think".

Case design,twist rate,throat geometry and COAL latitude are over everyone's head and it is funnier than [bleep],that there is a Faction who deems such things as "nonsense",due solely their "experience","knowledge" and "results".

Stupidity [bleep] abounds,which always makes for great entertainment and the gals here are really doing "great".

Laffin'!

I reckon it'll now be quiet for a spell and folks that REALLY "thought" they were "in"...will be bailing right the [bleep] out.(grin)

Agreed.

What prm said.

Boxer,

I'm willin' to extend to you the doubt-benefit thing because it's the way I roll.

Let's take a look at what I've posted:

Momentum, the ability of a bullet to penetrate, is a function of velocity and mass.

Match bullet to game at a suitable velocity at where game is to be shot, and you're good to go.

A suitable bullet fired from a .308 Win will kill big game farther than most shooters can shoot.

Cartridge debates are fun...but biology wins every time.

Jus' sayin'...


Now, Boxer, what part of match to game is causing you problems?

Here's how this works. I know Joe. I know he's an accomplished hunter. Joe tells me he's going moose hunting. He's going to use his '06. Joe is no fool. He ain't gonna spend a lot $$$ and expend strenuous effort to hunt moose unless he's gonna use a Partition or similar bullet. He wouldn't even have to tell me. I'd know that Joe is beyond bright enough to match his bullet to his intended game.

Now, Boxer, do you think that any animal can live longer than seconds sans its heart and/or lungs? Do you really think it makes any difference to any big game animal whether a .300 Win Mag or a .308 Win caused oxygenated blood to stop flowing to its brain?

Is this the fella who did the stunt sex for Brokeback Mountain? If not, it must be his twin brother.

Jus' Sayin'...

SloppyPoozy,

Why is it that you Pointy-Headed Cross-Eyed Drooling Dumb [bleep],IMMEDIATELY default to cramming things in your mouth and ass?!? Weren't my intent to horn you up Sweetheart,but as per always...there ain't no slighting your taste in men.

Very good call to refrain ALL things The Rifle and to use enough Pretend,to Imagine "Joe". In fairness and as you ohhhh sooooooooo eloquently attest and are amazingly oblivious to,Joe Average sure as [bleep] ain't very bright. Congratulations?!?

Have I seen Big Game with hole(s) in heart/lungs travel better than your delusional "seconds"? Yep. Longer than minutes? Yep. Longer than hours? Yep. If you wanna see how fast schit can run,punch a [bleep] lung and unleash the Hounds. Literally.

You poor poor sappy Clueless [bleep],I enjoy your Imagination and Pretend almost as much as you do,though for very different reasons. Laffin'! I get a kick outta how "real" your Imagination and Pretend are to you. Re-laffin'.

Double Dog Dare as per always,to hang a pic of your pointy-head and crossed-eyes,with a Splendid Beastie you "oxygenated". I'm looking forward to them Excuses and yet another fresh batch of Whine,as you talk even further out your ass,about those things you "know" the [bleep] least about.

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot!

Wow +P.

and speaking of Ballistics,




wonder what the BC is of a 120 lb. Hill Country Hoglet launched out of an 18" dia x 4' pig canon with 1/2 plywood wad over a 1 lb coffee can of Tannerite.




I will say this. The yuk-yuks definitely increase in direct proportion to hang time.



Real enough fer ya! LOL

Best,

GWB

I think I would pick a side and argue it, or even argue the validity of my experience more vehemently if I thought I could change anyone's thinking process. It really doesn't matter if I do or don't though. Some guys will never believe that a medium capacity 6mm is ideal for elk. Some guys will never believe that lightly constructed bullets are optimum for big game hunting. Some guys will never believe that 500 yds is a responsible distance to shoot big game. Hell, some guys believe a 30-06 is a 300yd max caliber for hunting. There are reasons why the above are true for some, and why they are false for others.

My next big thing is hunting with cast bullets. I realized it was time to either go more primitive or invest a lot more money in gear for the long-range thing. Who wants to argue ballistics gack about cast bullets? A whole new set of rules...

Mebbe someone will mention The Billy Dixon Shot? Ooops.(grin)

No matter the Game,the principles remain the same...but the amount of English requisite changes drastically at like distances,as a function of launch speed and BC.

While not exactly cast,though of the ilk,I just might could be a fan of launching SOFT lead to 500yds+ via crosshair intersections. Am patiently awaiting a handful of 75MOA rails to stretch things even farther,but am getting by in the interim.



One can reach 1K++ in High Style,for veddy veddy modest funds and it's a misnomer to muse that it's a Park Avenue penchant.

Faux Ti 243Win/105 kiss/Fixed [bleep] and you are there for under a bushel...with 1500yds++ of erector latitude.

Hint.

Just sayin'.

' ' added by JW for emphasis.

You are RIGHT.

You are RIGHT.

You are RIGHT.

OTOH, some here ?think? they're right about everything and they are WRONG about a lot of stuff.

Some make statements or accusation about people they 'know' NOTHING about.

"You can't fix stupid" so I don't waste my time, effort, breath, or band width, reading or responding.

wow, now we have ballistic relativism

'wall,

You Whine very well. Congratulations?!?

I'll feign my "surprise",that you skirted ALL things The Rifle and went WFO on your Vagina Monologue instead. It is funny,despite(and in spite off,both) it being the only [bleep] move you've got. Laffin'!

Do not let the cat get your tongue,nor the couch your kchunt,as you extoll your Imaginary Pretend 300 Winny's "virtues". Touch on all particulars you dare,regarding barrel make/twist/contour/length,throating,boolits,propellants,COAL,mounts/bases/glass,drop/drift,impat velocity,etc.,if only for some more oblivious [bleep] humor.

[bleep] funnier yet,PLEASE find me "mistaken" and I will happily take the time to rub your nose even further,in your incredible [bleep] Stupidity. Just sayin'.

Cheer up...I'll use itty-bitty words so even you can understand and knowing me,I'll prolly even frost it with pics.

Laffin'!










'6,

What we got is Window Licking Whining +P+...but it's hardly any [bleep] thing "new".(grin)

Though I do enjoy the Imagination and Pretend of The Paper Hat Brigade,as they feverishly strive to do their "best" and flaunt never ending Vagina Monologues as a "Trump Card" of "vindication".

[bleep] FUNNY schit!

Funny indeed.

GW - nice vid of how to make pigburger.

I wonder what percent of NA game taken, or attempted - require more than decent 6-7mm properly launched from a modest capacity round? Always felt if more is needed I would jump to a 338 to 9.3mm.

Surely many take the middle of the road and launch 30s at Warp.

Lest we fail to consider deer/hogs under 1/4 are the mainstay.

A good 6BR/105 will handle those all day long.

You got to a point I was going to make before I could get there, n8.

I know we all have our varying experiences, and the more we have the more solid and immovable our opinions on things. Still, what is cannot be denied, unless one plans to be ignorant. So thanks, jwall, for stating it so well, in cliche form: You can't fix stupid.

Those who deny what is in order to keep their opinions unchanged are just ignorant intentionally. How much evidence to the contrary is required before one's neck can finally bend a degree or two? That is why I don't argue my experiences here: I know their validity, though many others may disagree.

Still, how many elk need to be killed with a medium capacity 6 before it is a viable elk caliber? How many animals need to be killed in their tracks with lightly constructed bullets before they become viable options? ET CETERA.

I know I am wasting my time. You just can't fix stupid.

'BR,

There's been much more headway in the development of projectiles to reliably harness increased impact speeds...than there has been in the "perfection" of "harnessing" much reduced impact speeds. Funny how it actually works.(grin)

A good guy with a good 30,is in a good position to good things. That ain't as a function of 30cal "inherent" attributes,but rather as a function of The Terminal Trilogy. Hint.

I've seen more schit botched with Boomers,than I have "lesser" chamberings and that by a factor of a whole [bleep] bunch. Have also seen more boolits zook at higher impact velocities,than I have lower impact velocities...if only obviously. Re-hint.

Prolly why NOONE here is citing a boolit,though the gals sure is frettin' headstamps.(grin)










'Shoot,

Don't go baiting poor poor stupid [bleep] 'wall...that's entrapment,just as you've duped yourself. Laffin'!

'Course you are wasting your time and as you cite obliviously,you poor dumb [bleep] ain't whistled enough boolits,to even cite a [bleep] boolit.

Bless your hearts.

Boxer,

Try a couple glasses of wine.

How did hunters of yore manage to kill big game species on the North American continent before magnums came along? How did our Canadian brethren manage to kill griz with surplus .303 British rifles? How did Americans do it all with the '06.

Years ago I saw a National Geographic program on Arctic Circle polar bears. An Inuit woman zapped the hell outta a huge one trying to break into her home with a...'06! Imagine that. She probably shot with Core-Lokts.

Now get back to your wine. It'll make you smile.

SS - that's nothing special, go read some VHA about the Inuits using Hornets on PB

I think you and he are kinda saying the same thing. I've never read any of his posts where he espouses big heavy magnum rounds - in fact he's primarily the opposite. His posts seem to be more of put a good quality boolit where you aim all the time and it will kill stuff. He never has said the 06 is a crap caliber nor "old boolits" don't work - just that there are a whole lot of new boolits that work better - which is true.

I think you just like to troll him - it's kinda funny when you think about it. I think perhaps he's renting space in your head.

Boxer splits hairs like nobody's business, and lumps the bottom 99.9% of gear into the same pile o' schit.

Have some thicker skin and listen. I've learned a lot off of him. Sometimes I stir the pot with him though, mainly because his responses crack me the [bleep] up.

I do disagree with his prognosis concerning lung shots, but ain't going to seriously argue that with him.


This isn't directed at you paradiddle

I don't know Boxer. I grudgingly admit that though his posts are gruff, confusing(from all the phonetic swearing), and abrasive, he knows what he is talking about.

SloppyPoozy,

I'll feign my "surprise",that you weren't quite able to muster a pic of an "oxygenated" Splendid Beastie that'd fallen at your hands. Again..very GOOD call to refrain your "experience","knowledge" and "results",if only for them glaringly obvious [bleep] reasons. Laffin'!

The 303 is farrrrrrr easier on boolits,than the '06 is. Google it. If it helps your Imagination conjure more Pretend,please try to convince yourself I've never had one. Laffin'

Right Proper Drooling Dumb [bleep] Rifle,if only to fuel your Imagination further.

Hint.




You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot.

Laffin'!










'BR,

Rest assured,as close as she can come...is reading about The Outdoors.

Bless her heart.

Laffin'!











'diddle,

She Trolls herself and I think it's funny that the ignorant kchunt's "best"...is so absolutely paltry.

Watch her skirt all particulars and simply Whine in general.

Funny schit!











'Hunter,

I'm afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess.

It is a fortunate constant,that Imagination and Pretend are free...so The Window Lickers can "contribute" too.

Laffin'!











KchuntShot,

No [bleep] schit,you amazingly stupid [bleep]...I know WTF.

Congratulations on being such a sloooowwwwwwwwwww [bleep] learner?!?

Wow +P+.

No. He rambles and writes like Napoleon Dynamite thinks. If what you wrote is true, then he's repeating the elementary. Even novice hunters know that if hunters match bullets to game and put them where they're supposed to go, animals will die.

Cartridge ain't as important as stopping oxygenated blood flow.

BTW, I do get the impression that e makes stuff up in effort to prove a thesis that important to him.

Shot placement and bullet performance. It's not rocket science.

SloppyPoozy,

It's your Imagination,Pretend with it however you please. I'll feign my "surprise" that just ONE [bleep] picture of you with an "oxygenated" Splendid Beastie,far exceeded the "capabilities" of your hilariously contrived delusions. Do NOT "think" I'm slighting the [bleep] humor quotient though. Laffin'!

PLEASE find me "mistaken" and I'll happily take the time,to rub your nose even further in your [bleep] Stupidity. It is just a cryin' shame,that you are devoid the 17 IQ Points requisite,to be able to cypher how far you are in over your pointy [bleep] head.

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot.

As an aside,just how "loud" is your Imagination,when you Pretend to "shoot" it.

PS and by the way...happiness is crushed skeletal structuring AKA The Emergency Brake,with a whole 'lotta victim lined up on a quartering poke.

Just sayin'.



Good talk and I much appreciate the humor,of you doing your "best".

Laffin'!

Phfukking idiot...

Ben Lilly said it all!! 30-30 for Mt Lion,33 Win for Bear. Bigger is better!!

Bigger is better...I heartily concur.

Just sayin'.



None of which,has anything to do with bore diameter...nor the days of yore. Not that I don't enjoy the humor of Window Lickers talking out their ass,in regards to those things they "know" the least about. Makes for some fascinating oblivious humor!

Hint.

Laffin'!

Ben Lilly, now their was an interesting guy. Left his home and his family one day and took the dogs bear hunting and never returned. Made it his life. He even guided Pres. Theodore Roosevelt to a bear. But he would not shoot a bear or anything else on Sunday even if it strolled through his camp. That was the Lord's day. He was famous for saying "anybody can shoot a deer, it takes a man to hunt varmints".

Souci,

I haven't killed a lot of animals, but know from firsthand experience that perforated lungs do not equal death in seconds. It can take minutes and in that time I have no doubt that deer and elk can travel a mile, maybe two in that time. This is what some fellas here on the 'Fire call a "rodeo".

Here's a buck I shot with a 200gr Nosler Accubond from a 300 Win Mag. Distance was 50 yards. Both lungs were pulverized. This buck ran like he wasn't hit.

Guess which way he ran?

Downhill, of course. Check the last pic... this was the hillside I was hunting. Not exactly a Kansas cornfield. Cell-phone pics suck, but I think you get the picture.

Lucky for me he ran into a pile of blow-down, and crashed. Otherwise he might have made it to the bottom of the canyon.

So my answer to your question to Boxer is, "Hell yes a critter can live for more than 'seconds'".

Where the hell do you get this idea that animals die within seconds?

Jason

Critters can go a long ways here in a few "seconds"...

This is a better pic of the area that buck above was shot.

Hi Jason,

I have heard many third hand accounts of big game traveling miles after their lungs were destroyed or hearts destroyed. However, it has never been my experience. Nor have I ever talked to anyone who has had to actually track any such game any great distance.

My last buck I shot had one lung destroyed. I'd doubt if he made it 50 yards. He was dead when I walked up to him.

A good rule of thumb is to always go with the rule as opposed to citing an exception in effort to refute the rule.

Take care

What is the "Rule" again?

I've seen both elk and big mule deer go quite a fugging ways with wrecked lungs. Broken shoulders...? Not so much.

Tanner

What also works? Shooting again.

Yep... that bolt best be flying if critters are still on their feet.

Tanner

My original point!

THANKS to Tanner & 4th Point for verification. Anyone who's hunted a lot has seen animals do AMAZING and sometimes unbelievable things.

They are not necessarily the exception, they do happen more often than any ONE may see.

Souci,

I'm going to cite another exception...

Shot this little buck on the wet-side of Kansas to put meat in the freezer. Another 200gr Nosler Accubond from a 300 Win Mag, at ~50 yards. I jumped this buck and another.

Shot the little guy high-chest on the near-side rear portion of chest. Bullet exited low-chest, far-side front portion. Kansas ain't as flat as some people claim. Both lungs wrecked.

He lived more than "seconds". After the shot he trotted off while I worked the bolt in disbelief. Surely I pummeled this buck with my uber-magnum. Why didn't he drop from the doppel-lung shot?

He strolled around a knob in the cornfield... probably looking for his bud. In this time he could have covered MILES. I wonder if he would have done just that, if he wasn't cruising with his buddy?

Anyway, check out the pic where I tied para-cord to keep him from sliding down the Kansas hillside. Steep and slippery is a vast understatement.

Someone mentioned earlier that they have not killed that many animals. Well I've killed hundreds.

A CNS shot, they are DRT.


85 gr. Nosler Partition, 240 Weatherby



200 Gr. Nosler Accubond, 325 WSM

Sever the Spine/vertebrae and they drop and paddle. Does not kill like a CNS Shot, and often you need to finish up with a second shot if one wants to be humane.


180 Gr. Nosler Partiton, 30-06 Springfield, spine shot, dropped at the POI.


225 Gr. Nosler Accubond, 35 Whelen, Severed vertebrae between ear and shoulder. Dropped and paddled.


257 Weatherby, 100 gr. Partition. Severed Vertebrae, Dropped at the shot.



Break both front shoulders they don't go far.


338 RUM, 200 Gr. Ballistic Silvertip Dropped at the shot.

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/350pig1.jpg[/img]
225 gr. Accubond, 350 Rem Mag. Dropped at the shot.

Heart/lung shots in heavy cover is a good way to lose an animal. Had to track each of these by blood trail.

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/292.jpg[/img]
150 Gr. Ballistic Silvertip, 7Mag, ran 75 yds. +/

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/MVC-013S-1.jpg[/img]
180 gr. Nosler Partition, 30-06 Springfield. High lung shot, ran +/- 80 yds and piled up.

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/DSCN5877.jpg[/img]
110 gr. Accubond, 25-06. High lung shot, ran +/- 120 yds.

I tend to favor 7mm and up. May not be necessary, but I like the margin of confidence. Shot placement is paramount.

Best,

GWB

So Souci,

I gotta ask, what type of game are you doppel-lunging with instant kills? And what terrain?

And what is the "Rule"?

Jason

Can't say I have seen that, at least not with expanding bullets and at least modest velocity. I have seen elk go a couple hundred yards with two wrecked lungs, but its always been steep downhill and they had only a few seconds to do so.

I hadn't planned to kill this lion, but decided to after the third chase. Since I hadn't planned to kill it, dumbass me only had .38 FMJs...MISTAKE...he DID live for several minutes with 2 rounds through his lungs. Dogs caught him on the ground. That was a trip to the vet and a new pair of shorts. Lesson learned the hard way. Broke shoulders would have helped for sure here, but I think the schitty bullet was more of an issue than the lung shot. Critters (and lions especially) normally die quickly with expanding bullets through the lungs, even at lowly 22LR speeds.



FMJs and hard casts are a no-no for hunting...unless CNS shots are in the mix. This is one of the few times I think bullet design is more important than placement, within reason. By placement I mean shoulders vs pure lung...shoot them in the guts/ass and all bets are off.

Badass picture DH, that's not the first rodeo I've heard of with dogs catching cats out in the open... pretty gruesome what can happen after! It's hard to tell from the photo- is that a female or a Tom?

I should have been more clear on what I meant by "quite a fugging ways"... I've seen a handful of elk and deer each go 300-400 yards uphill, downhill, and sideways after solid lung shots.... but some of them I'd attribute to poor bullet performance as much as anything else. I have definitely become a fan of shoulder shots, though.

Off to AK Friday morning....

Yep, good advice, might heard it before.




https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...arch/true/Re_I_have_the_urge#Post9025098

It was a small tom. About 100(ish) pounds.


Shoulder shots work no doubt, but I get tired of dealing with this:


If not dealing with a ruined heart (my absolute favorite part) and that nasty, gritty bone marrow all over the meat means a possible 200 yards track, but more likely a 30-50 yard or less (quite often MUCH less) track, I'll take it every time. Its all what we have confidence in I guess.

Have fun in AK. It's been a while since I have been there. Take advantage of all that you can while there.

I'm not as old as some of you fuggers

Jason

ya got it wrong, bozo....


Drink like fish.
Lie like lawyers.
Don't admit to nothin.
Who's turn cooking.

I can understand the problem with lung shot animals moving off a ways from a solid lung hit...the lungs are the gas line and it takes a few seconds for the gas (blood) to run out before the engine is out of fuel.

By force of habit I have always try to angle shots into shoulders coming or going and catch the vital plumbing along the way if I can...this immobilizes and destroys vitals at the same time,and tends to work well,whether it's a pronghorn or brown bear,but nothing is guaranteed once you cut loose.Your bullet has to work.

One 6x6 quartering "on" was hit on the point of the shoulder with a 180 NPT at not far off 500 yards and collapsed like the proverbial dynamited smokestack.The bullet broke through the heavy bone, wrecked the chest and was recovered against the hide on the back ribs. He never got up.

But another hit near the back of the lungs at about the same distance sauntered off 75-100 yards;bedded down and jumped up as I approached and had to be finished at that point.Conversely a 300 pound bear ( one of those little Maine bears was hit through the lungs with a 140 Bitterroot was DRT and never got up...lungs were a train wreck.

My last mule deer buck was on the move and hit through shoulders and spine with a 130 Partition that went through and through at about 80 yards. He was dead so instantly that I saw his head snap between his legs as the rifle recoiled.

Another had his lungs scrambled with a 130 Sierra but had enough fuel left that he clung to life but did not go far.

I have not had much problem with ruined meat but tend to use tough, antiquated designs like NPT's and Bitterroots; but give them lots of velocity and twist...they tend to kill like bombs out to 400-500 yards,as far as I have used them,and penetrate more than needed regardless what I hit,which is why I keep using them.Putting them on bone helps expedite matters,too.

4th,

I'm luckier than you,because Kansas is piss flat and of rather modest vegetation...as my front yard attests. Trio of Bucks sauntering across the lawn,not too many days ago.



I love lung shots.

Laffin'!










SloppyPoosy,

Your Imagination and Pretend are a [bleep] hoot!

I'll yet again feign my "surprise",that the culmination of what you've "heard" and your pard "Joe" have "done",soundly trump your Couchbound "Adventures".

You drooling "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot!

Keep doing your "best".

Wow.










KchuntShoot,

One in the ass,is better than two in the grass.

Prolly my favorite Ass Shot of ALL Time.



You really "get after it".

Laffin'!










'wall,

Don't forget about your Imaginary Pretend Ignore,if only because it's unbecoming. Laffin'! You Whined long and loud how you were "out"(but were never even close to being in) and that is some seriously funny [bleep] schit. Congratulations?!?

You musta "forgot" that you was gonna wax eloquent on the 300Winny and "tell" me "all" about the chambering...yet your kchunt cain't leave the couch and a cat's got your tongue. I'm really "surprised" too,because you were doing so "great". Laffin'!

Bless your heart.

Laffin'!










Dog',

I've seen alotta schit,soak alotta schit.

Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get broken shoulders. Lady Elk get ear-holed.

162 offside exit shoulder,started at 3100fps+ and impact distance 80-ish yds.

Never took a [bleep] step...because he couldn't. Hint.






I should upload a bunch more video,to get minds right.(grin)










Bob',

Noone loves crushing skeletal structure,more than I.

I'd much rather hit the Emergency Brake,than engage 4-Wheel Drive.

Lung Poppers are typically Hay Bale & Crockett Texans and they've the luxury of schit being hemmed in by fences.

"Lucky" bastards.

Laffin'!

Comprehension & Retention helps on any subject/discussion!

Yep, the Kansas Doppel-Lunger is a good one. And you save all that precious shoulder meat!

I'm slow on the uptake at times but I've gone to neck or shoulder shots. Or angled bone smashers like Bob mentioned. So far, they haven't gone anywhere except straight down. Shoulder meat is far over-rated, someone around here said that.

I mean no disrespect and am not bagging on you in any way, but the deer in that pic is shot significantly too far back even if it was a quartering away shot. I know none of us, certainly not me, gets perfect shot placement every time, but if you are intentionally aiming that far back, bring it forward a bit and life will get easier. Ideally, I'd like to hit about 4 inches in front of the brown leaf and a little down on a broadside shot, maybe hit the leaf if quartering.

The bulk of the lungs lies between the shoulders. A "low" shoulder shot that misses the bones is a solid lung shot. As you move rear of the "elbow", the lungs start angling up. Imagine a line going from the elbow through the leaf to the bullet hole. That is approximately the rear of the lungs. Depending on the shot angle, you probably got some liver and clipped the rear lobe of the onside lung and pulverized the offside one.

Shoulder shots are where it's at, for me anyway.

We need you on the border

That's a riot! I'm still chucklin' here.

I hear what you're sayin' and appreciate that comment, RJY. But, that buck was quartering away and downhill (steep). I think going forward with the shot would have been a single-lunger.

Regardless, if I could do it over, I wouldn't do any of the mentioned... I'd put the bullet in his neck.

I'm thinking of trying that in-front-of-the-shoulder neck shot this year, where the spine comes off the shoulder toward the skull. The vertebrae are good sized right there, and there is a lot to hit if I don't hit bone but hit low. I just can't plan to shoot at meat if I don't have to, so I can't justify taking the shoulder shot. I know a lot of guys use it, and it anchors game right there, but I've not had anything screw me with tracking or packing by shooting for the heart/lungs.

HuntnShoot,

Which part of the shoulder, high or low? I haven't seen much meat on the high shoulder.

Jason