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Joined: Mar 2013
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Mar 2013
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Is it really worth it to get an extra .45 Colt cylinder? Does it improve accuracy? Cut down on leading in the cylinder? Just dotting Is and crossing Ts?
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
IMHO worth it, and shoot the correct brass in the correct cylinder. FA mdl 83's are built to very tight tollerances, and it doesn't take much leading or fouling to make extracting 454 brass from the cylinder tough.
As far as accuracy, due to the previously mentioned dimensions I would be surprised if you had trouble get top notch accuracy out of a 454 using 45 colt brass.
That said, it is well worth working up loads to see what is most accurate in your gun. A good revolver is capable of moa accuracy, but only with worked up loads. I've seen 1/2 gr more or 1/2 gr less powder than the accuracy load for a good revolver double the size of the group.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.
If I ever wanted anything more powerful than a 5 shot .45 Colt, I'd go bigger, not faster. .475 Linebaugh would be my next step, and you can shoot .480 Ruger in a .475 for lighter loads.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,686
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,686 |
Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.
If I ever wanted anything more powerful than a 5 shot .45 Colt, I'd go bigger, not faster. .475 Linebaugh would be my next step, and you can shoot .480 Ruger in a .475 for lighter loads. Agree with all written completely.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,730
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,730 |
I have not seen much of a drop in accuracy when dropping colts in my freedoms. I have owned extra cylinders in my freedoms and I feel its not needed. When you shoot colts, clean well before shooting 454's. Its really that simple. Internet claims of bad things happening in the freedoms when using 45 colts are a myth unless you are not cleaning in between. While I do really enjoy my 454's I do agree that if you are looking for just power go with the 475 for more size. If you are looking for flat shooting, go with the 454. I have owned many of both and there is nothing I will face that a 45 colt or 454 wont handle.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,263
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,263 |
[quote=GunGeek]Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.
I have a couple of problems with this.
OAL-- When loading most bullets in a 45 Colt case to 454 OAL you will not be crimping in the cannelure of that bullet. Not a good thing to do in a revolver with heavy recoil. It is okay in the T/C single shot except for not having equal bullet pull that a good roll crimp affords using slow burning powders.
Some 45 Colt brass can handle high pressures up to normal magnum pressures, but not at 454 pressures. 45 Colt brass has much thinner sidewalls and web section than 454 or 44 mag brass as a comparison.
I have never seen any loading data for the 45 Colt that equals the 454 as far as pressures go. The "Ruger/TC Loads" in the manuals do not equal the 454 pressures. For good reason.
Not that it makes any difference, but FA in their owners manual for the Model 83 states that they do not recommend shooting 45 Colt in the 454 cylinder. They have their reasons. A dirty cylinder from 38 special/.357 mag and 44 special/44mag is not the same as 45 Colt/454. The 454 SAAMI pressures are higher than .357 and 44 mag. Could pose a problem shooting a 454 in a dirty cylinder left over from shooting the 45 Colt "for some people". Like gunchamp said, keep it clean.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895 |
Is it really worth it to get an extra .45 Colt cylinder? Does it improve accuracy? Cut down on leading in the cylinder? Just dotting Is and crossing Ts? Not in my experience. ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DSC01628_zpsd94011f7.jpg) No need for a 45 Colt cylinder IME and opinion. I shoot mostly 45 colts in my 454s.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143 |
Quite frankly, in a 5-shot revolver, the .45 Colt can be loaded to near .454 pressures. That said, I can see no reason to load it that hot. Even the ammo manufacturers aren't loading it any longer to its SAAMI max (65,000 psi). The .454 buys you some more range, but long range isn't my objective while handgun hunting.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895 |
[quote=GunGeek]Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.
I have a couple of problems with this.
OAL-- When loading most bullets in a 45 Colt case to 454 OAL you will not be crimping in the cannelure of that bullet. Not a good thing to do in a revolver with heavy recoil. It is okay in the T/C single shot except for not having equal bullet pull that a good roll crimp affords using slow burning powders.
Some 45 Colt brass can handle high pressures up to normal magnum pressures, but not at 454 pressures. 45 Colt brass has much thinner sidewalls and web section than 454 or 44 mag brass as a comparison.
I have never seen any loading data for the 45 Colt that equals the 454 as far as pressures go. The "Ruger/TC Loads" in the manuals do not equal the 454 pressures. For good reason.
Not that it makes any difference, but FA in their owners manual for the Model 83 states that they do not recommend shooting 45 Colt in the 454 cylinder. They have their reasons. A dirty cylinder from 38 special/.357 mag and 44 special/44mag is not the same as 45 Colt/454. The 454 SAAMI pressures are higher than .357 and 44 mag. Could pose a problem shooting a 454 in a dirty cylinder left over from shooting the 45 Colt "for some people". Like gunchamp said, keep it clean.
If one casts then the crimp groove can be located for the 45 Colt brass. If you followed Ross Sygfried when he was writing about handguns he routinely loaded federal 45 Colt brass to 454 levels without problems.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,730
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
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Quite frankly, in a 5-shot revolver, the .45 Colt can be loaded to near .454 pressures. That said, I can see no reason to load it that hot. Even the ammo manufacturers aren't loading it any longer to its SAAMI max (65,000 psi). The .454 buys you some more range, but long range isn't my objective while handgun hunting. Agree 100%. I keep my 454 loads to pushing a 335 cp to 1350ish. Don't need any more than that for what I'm doing.
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,730
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
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[quote=GunGeek]Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.
I have a couple of problems with this.
OAL-- When loading most bullets in a 45 Colt case to 454 OAL you will not be crimping in the cannelure of that bullet. Not a good thing to do in a revolver with heavy recoil. It is okay in the T/C single shot except for not having equal bullet pull that a good roll crimp affords using slow burning powders.
Some 45 Colt brass can handle high pressures up to normal magnum pressures, but not at 454 pressures. 45 Colt brass has much thinner sidewalls and web section than 454 or 44 mag brass as a comparison.
I have never seen any loading data for the 45 Colt that equals the 454 as far as pressures go. The "Ruger/TC Loads" in the manuals do not equal the 454 pressures. For good reason.
Not that it makes any difference, but FA in their owners manual for the Model 83 states that they do not recommend shooting 45 Colt in the 454 cylinder. They have their reasons. A dirty cylinder from 38 special/.357 mag and 44 special/44mag is not the same as 45 Colt/454. The 454 SAAMI pressures are higher than .357 and 44 mag. Could pose a problem shooting a 454 in a dirty cylinder left over from shooting the 45 Colt "for some people". Like gunchamp said, keep it clean.
If one casts then the crimp groove can be located for the 45 Colt brass. If you followed Ross Sygfried when he was writing about handguns he routinely loaded federal 45 Colt brass to 454 levels without problems. It is amazing what can be done in a 5 shot colt. I've seen loads that would darn near equal 454 velocity.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,263
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2013
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The gun can take it. The brass is the weak link.
Years ago when people started loading the 45 Colt hot for the Blackhawks, they did discover that Fed brass was heavier and had good luck with it. Win brass was weaker. Rem brass was the weakest. Case life was shorter than a typical 44 mag case on all the brands. Starline brass for the 45 Colt is heat treated and has a different grain structure just for this reason of people loading it at the higher levels. Agreed on not loading it to 65K psi.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,263
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Just for giggles-has anyone seen any load data for the 45 Colt at full 454 levels.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I can only speak from my own experiences which may not shed any light for your situation. I have a Smith & Wesson 460XVR revolver and if you don't know. It's chambered for the .460 Magnum as well as being able to shoot .45LC and .454 Casull. I was beyond shocked at the great accuracy of .45LC and .454s in this gun. Extremely accurate in every instance. I agree with Kevin though, I would only load up LCs as .454 brass is ridiculous. I have even found .460 brass much cheaper
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Maybe it is just me, but I never understood why someone would carry a 5 pound gun around to shoot the 45 LC. I do have a 8 3/8" S&W 500. I do not shoot drastically reduced loads in it. The most accurate loads are near max though.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I can only speak from my own experiences which may not shed any light for your situation. I have a Smith & Wesson 460XVR revolver and if you don't know. It's chambered for the .460 Magnum as well as being able to shoot .45LC and .454 Casull. I was beyond shocked at the great accuracy of .45LC and .454s in this gun. Extremely accurate in every instance. I agree with Kevin though, I would only load up LCs as .454 brass is ridiculous. I have even found .460 brass much cheaper The last .460 XVR I tested wouldn't shoot anything but .460 ammo accurately. I also found the size and noise off-putting. But that's just me.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I can only speak from my own experiences which may not shed any light for your situation. I have a Smith & Wesson 460XVR revolver and if you don't know. It's chambered for the .460 Magnum as well as being able to shoot .45LC and .454 Casull. I was beyond shocked at the great accuracy of .45LC and .454s in this gun. Extremely accurate in every instance. I agree with Kevin though, I would only load up LCs as .454 brass is ridiculous. I have even found .460 brass much cheaper The last .460 XVR I tested wouldn't shoot anything but .460 ammo accurately. I also found the size and noise off-putting. But that's just me. I think you have mentioned that before on here. Guess it was the gun, cause mine shoots cowboy loads and hard hitting loads in 45LC as accurate as I need them to be. The 460 is a fireball and sounds like a cannon going off, but it is a hoot to shoot and will drop any animal on this continent and most on others 
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
If one casts then the crimp groove can be located for the 45 Colt brass. If you followed Ross Sygfried when he was writing about handguns he routinely loaded federal 45 Colt brass to 454 levels without problems.
THIS!! The issue isn't the brass, it's the chamber. If the chamber is cut right, a .45 Colt will do anything a .454 will do. Federal and Starline .45 Colt brass is as good as cartridge brass gets; period.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
The gun can take it. The brass is the weak link.
Case life was shorter than a typical 44 mag case on all the brands. That hasn't been my observation. Again, it all comes down to how generous the chamber is. For some reason on production .45 Colts (mostly older ones) chambers are extremely generous, far more generous than a .44 or .41 mag...I'm sure JWP or Whitworth may have an answer for why that is, but it is. All else being equal, Federal or Starline .45 Colt brass will do anything that pretty much any other cartridge can do, and won't wear out any faster...again, all else being equal.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,002
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Posts: 7,002 |
Is it really worth it to get an extra .45 Colt cylinder? Does it improve accuracy? Cut down on leading in the cylinder? Just dotting Is and crossing Ts? I've never used a .45 Colt cylinder in my Casulls- instead, if I want to shoot .45 Colt-level loads, I simply download .454 cases to do so. FA publishes a whole list of suitable powders, bullets, etc. to do this. In fact, nearly all the shooting I do nowdays with .454 Casull is with downloaded .454 cases. Accuracy is just fine, and those cases will last forever at reduced pressure levels. Just don't try using powders like H110 or W296 to do so- they are designed to perform at near max velocity and pressure levels, and reducing loads with these powders can result in misfires.
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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