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Right again Bob.

Over the past few yrs, IF people pay attention, we have been hearing,
1 the 308 is just as good as the 06,
2 the 06 is just as good as the 300 mags.

3 the 6.5 Creedmore is just as good as the 270 (or better - uhhh) smirk
4 the 260 is just as good as the 280,
5 the 260 is just as good or better than the 308.

THEREFORE the 6.5 Creedmore is just as good as the 300 WM

Now others could be added to this list.

There is a rule in logic and geometry - 2 things = to the same thing, are = to each other.

Now based on that RULE, the 6.5 Creedmore is just as god as the 300 mags.


Sorry Bob and others - I never bought into that, nor drank that kool aid.

I've been participating on the Fire almost 4 yrs now, I STILL love and have reasons to prefer the 300 WM over MANY 'lesser cartridges'. I'm not saying the 300 is preferred for 100-200 lb. whitetail but larger BG.

I could go on but that is my point.


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I haven't chased after or killed anything bigger than about 600-700lbs. 30 cal Heavies at '06 speeds have done the job just fine, as long as the shot placement has been there. Marginal hits have produced less than perfect results.

I am supposing, and only supposing, that the results would have been remarkably similar with most sporting rounds a few steps up and a few steps down. Bigger gack numbers wouldn't have made marginal hits better ones.

When I go after bigger, I may use bigger. I know Shoemaker has high praise for heavy partitions at 30-06 speeds, but I would feel undergunned with any 30 cal if I ever hunt big coastal bears.

As you say, Bob, certainly there is a place for big guns, big bullets, big cartridge capacities, big energy numbers; they have significance.I just don't think that place is anywhere here in the Lower 48. Nothing I have seen has caused me to question this.
The other extreme is usually the case for me, because I often hear about much smaller guns, bullets, etc, doing what I do with mine.


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Lotsa funny schit here and it's always the Charcoal Burning/Ping Ball Flinging Faction that delivers the best comedy,mainly because it's served obliviously...while they proffer their "best".

I reckon it's easy for me to say,because I've killed schit with everything from CB Caps to 378Wby,with most stops in between. That includes 100's and 100's of rifles and there prolly ain't too many boolits I've not flung. In overview and if only obviously,not all wares is equal. Hint.

Want some INSTANT Humor?!? Ask a "300 Winchester Guy" which boolit,what speed,what zero,what engagement distance(s) and how they's arranging POA/POI intersections. Take 'er to the Bank,that the "answers" are gonna be funnier than [bleep]...especially when asked in summation "why a 300Winny?!?". Funny schit! Let 'em knock it right the [bleep] outta da' Park by asking them,"how many 300Winny barrels have you shot out in "all" those years of "use"?". Imagination and Pretend is suplizing "real" to these folks. Laffin'!

Putting good boolits,in a good location of a GOOD Critter,is veddy veddy EASILY arranged. Yet on the average(which is welllllllll shy of average),the Window Licking Charcoal Burning Ping Pong Ball Launching Faction,sucks heavy ass at arranging POA/POI intersections and that'd be an UBERunderstatement. UBERhint. UBERlaffin'!

Many are enthralled with launch speeds and their launch "energy",which is moot designators...unless one is in a Muzzle Blast Tournament. As per Terminal Affects,projectile placement and projectile integrity are the first two-thirds of The Terminal Trilogy,which remains a constant pyramid of facts and are arranged thusly in their relative importance of turning living schit,into dead schit:

1) Placement
2) Projectile Integrity
3) Headstamp

It is a curious constant,that most folks is over headstamped and under boolited,replete with lackluster abilities in the reliable arrangement of POA/POI intersections. But it IS funny!

Back in the days of UKD,noone was quicker to add case capacity to Ping Pong Ball BC's,than I. Why?!? Because that was the ONLY [bleep] move available. LRF's and slickery boolits weren't available,so to hedge bets,one practiced daily in range determinations and twisted turrets in accordance to same,in order to capably understand the limits of a given platform. That'd include alotta barrels,alotta boolits and alotta powder. Few could begin to comprehend the obscene round counts involved. Hint.

Anywhoooo...Today a gent with an OEM over da' counter 243Win stoked with good boolits(105 kiss) and a LRF will slap the [bleep] dogschit outta the gent with a 30-378 rollin' UKD and Mart Mart Fodder. Again,pardon my shooting both chamberings more than a bunch. Hint.

It is amusinger than [bleep],how amazingly few folks are able to connect dots and see the big picture. Good boolits,in good places,simply and RELIABLY do GREAT things. Such constants is easily arranged and there is no better or more fun way to arrange same,than by shooting something that is FUN to shoot. Read that again. Hint.

By squirting slickery boolits of repute in a FUN chambering,the "odds" of utterly reliable Terminal Affects sky-rocket through the [bleep] roof. An oft overlooked byproduct of same,is that FUN chamberings will often slap the schit outta Charcoal Burning Ping Pong Ball Launchers in impact velocity,drop and drift...as well as "energy",for them enthralled with such moot designators.

I've had a LOT of gents come visit and I mean a LOT of gents and I wish I actually knew the number of rifles involved,but it's beyond 100's and 100's. That being said and the obvious of the initial wares running the relative gamut,the 2nd Trip is ALWAYS tooled in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy different accords,than their first. There are no Blued/Walnut Dipschittery,no windag-adjustable rear "mounts",no CDS or glass less real turrets,nor are there Ping Pong Balls. Another curious constant is that case capacity goes down,BC goes up and so does the actual round count of the platform. Much thunkery is gived to COAl,twist rate and the melding of projectiles to same. Funny how it works and I mean FUNNY.

You hand one of them gents who've seen the light a Blued/Walnut WAM wearing slick scoped 300Winny stoked with Mart Mart Fodder and they'd throw it on the ground and piss on it.

[Linked Image]

Just sayin'.

Good talk.

Laffin'!









(Addendum: For more Window Licking Humor)

It is yet another intellesting constant,that dissenters always bemoan a headstamp first,yet never cite the "offending" boolit.

For conversation...it's tough to keep a .243" 85X in a Moose and I'm talkin' through shoulders.

There are farrrrrrrrrrrrr more boolits shy of the Grade,than there are headstamps shy of same,but one hinges on the other,if only obviously.

Hint.

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HuntnShoot: I don't entirely disagree. It's when someone tries to convince me that a 243 is as good an elk cartridge as a 30/06(with equivalent) bullets, I blink.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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jwall & bob, you folks have the right idea.. I have to laugh when some one kills a couple head of game elk, deer what ever, with a caliber and pronounce it suitable based on a couple incidents..
I well remember the first couple head of game I shot with a .243.
quick kills.. I decided the current gunhack must be right, the .243 was some kind of divine death ray. A couple dozen head later, I decided for my $ there are far better big game calibers
out there.. I still shoot the .243, but not so much on big game.


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Momentum, the ability of a bullet to penetrate, is a function of velocity and mass.

Match bullet to game at a suitable velocity at where game is to be shot, and you're good to go.

A suitable bullet fired from a .308 Win will kill big game farther than most shooters can shoot.

Cartridge debates are fun...but biology wins every time.

Jus' sayin'...



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Momentum, the ability of a bullet to penetrate, is a function of velocity and mass.

Match bullet to game at a suitable velocity at where game is to be shot, and you're good to go.

A suitable bullet fired from a .308 Win will kill big game farther than most shooters can shoot.

Cartridge debates are fun...but biology wins every time.

Jus' sayin'...



�If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.�
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SloppyPoozy,

Neither velocity nor mass,take into account projectile integrity.

The only things you shoot are your mouth and Imagination...though in no particular [bleep] order. Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!

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Quote
It is a curious constant,that most folks is over headstamped and under boolited



Boxer, I see this all the time in my home states annual bear season. Most guys seem to have some variation of a .30 caliber and 150 grain Core-Lokts. They all seem to believe you shoot bear in the shoulder too. Which is fine, but not with light C n C's. I don't know how many wounded bears we haven't found because of guys having too much headstamp and not enough bullet, but it's not been rare. Guys believe as long as the headstamp reads '30-06' or '.300 mag' they're good to go. They don't even give bullets a thunk.

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Now THIS is true therapy, Laffin' my Boxers off!!!

Jwall - I guess you cannot be overgunned - I mean dead is dead.

If you shoot a 300 as good as a 243, you might be the exception to the masses.

If a good well-placed smaller caliber bullet kills as well as a BIGGER bullet, does the headstamp make one inferior or superior to the other?

2nd question: Can a tape measure accurately predict the probability of bringing a woman to climax?

Now if we reverse the common logic, if a hunter kills cleanly with a 243, does that make him a better shot than the chap using a 300?

Enjoyed the feedback, serious and the humor.

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Gee........doesn't bullet weight, mass,diameter, expansion characteristics,penetration,impact velocity,rpm's, bone breaking (immobilizing effect),deep and wide wound channels, count for anything? smile


By the time we finish with this ballistic relativism and reach its highly illogical conclusion, the 243 will be as good a Cape Buffalo or brown bear cartridge as a 375 H&H....and we know that ain't gonna happen.


65 -

I ain't alone in seeing the FALLACY of your reasoning (?).

There is game that DESERVE more tissue destruction for a 'quicker' , humane kill.

Also with less tissue destruction (internal) it takes bigger animals longer to run out of oxygenated blood to result in death. In that 'longer' time those larger animals WILL be able to go 'farther' and could wind up in terrain WE wouldn't want to have to get them out of , deep ravines or downfall timber etc.

I am also talking PROPERLY constructed bullets for the game.

You use what you want, just don't try to con me into what I know better.

I'm probably OUT of this discussion.


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dooshmike,

I'm in the fortunate position,that folks is always trying to "tell" me things and "show" me things...none of which ever quite goes they way they was "thinking".(grin)

I've zooked alotta boolits,outta alotts chamberings and have lonnnngggggggg given boolits more than a passing thunk.

Never was much into [bleep] around and results never don't not intellest me.

In fairness,I've never had more than 15 or 20 thousand core-lokts on hand at any one time,but their role ain't as Critter Getters,but rather FireForm Fodder,as their schit profile will kiss [bleep] near any throat.

Just sayin'.











'BR,

Oh I know I'm the exception to alotta Rules,which is why I'm slow to use me as a barometer of relative evaluation,beings it is soooooooooooo [bleep] "unfair". I've shot with more than a schitload of gents and it is never a "surprise" to see their wares get tossed offa cliff after a Maiden Voyage and the blueprints REALLY change on the next pass. It is well beyond PREDICTABLE. Noone is tough enough to connect that many [bleep] dots,in such rapid fashion(first poke) and say "nope...hitting do not interest me". NOONE. Hint.

I've long been good with a multitude of .30's in a vast assortment of blueprints/case designs and have gunned the gamut more than [bleep] thoroughly. 'Course I've shot alotta other diameters too and that is why a .30 ain't at the top of my list. Read that again. Hint.

Headstamp inferiority complexes,typically run from the top down,rather than the bottom up. Read that again. Hint. Window Licking Ping Pong Launchin' Charcoal Burners,devise all sortsa contrived Dumb [bleep] to salve their "experience","knowledge" and "results". It's boringly predictable in their justifications of "Theory" and gets funnier than [bleep],if'n you can dupe one into showcasing the "Application" portion of the equation. CBS UKD is as big of a Vulcan Mind [bleep] to them,as KD with a few sighters. Add some wind and you'd better be settin' down,or you'd hurt yourself laughing.

Fun to play Warp Nine Thirty and squirt some purty meaningful BC's at Watch The [bleep] Out speeds. 'Course none of the 300 Winchester Guys have enough [bleep] brains,to connect them glaringly [bleep] obvious dots. Thirty-Five Hundo Skinners do not suck and 5 Mils to 1K,might be a hoot.

Just sayin'.

[Linked Image]

I'd be VERY [bleep] impressed,if anyone has flogged on the 300 Winny chambering more than I. Let alone the 300-Bee or Super. BT/DT and got ALL the [bleep] T-shirts and then some. Hint.

All boolits setting on the shelf is equal and that is the only time they are equal. Plum [bleep] amazing how few can grasp the concept of impact speed and projectile integrity,conjoined with placement. Meld the trio and schit is over,before it even starts...yet noone tools in accordance to arrange same. VERY [bleep] funny schit! As per always,it's never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't and it's yet another intellesting tidbit...that them who shoot the most,tend to tote farrrrrrrr less headstamp and more boolit,than them who shoot the least. Read that again. Hint.

Impact velocity/drop/drift are the greatest factors of concern,yet the farthest from anyone's radar. Funny how folks "think".

Case design,twist rate,throat geometry and COAL latitude are over everyone's head and it is funnier than [bleep],that there is a Faction who deems such things as "nonsense",due solely their "experience","knowledge" and "results".

Stupidity [bleep] abounds,which always makes for great entertainment and the gals here are really doing "great".

Laffin'!

I reckon it'll now be quiet for a spell and folks that REALLY "thought" they were "in"...will be bailing right the [bleep] out.(grin)

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Originally Posted by Boxer


Neither velocity nor mass,take into account projectile integrity.



Agreed.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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What prm said.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Originally Posted by Boxer
SloppyPoozy,

Neither velocity nor mass,take into account projectile integrity.

The only things you shoot are your mouth and Imagination...though in no particular [bleep] order. Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!


Boxer,

I'm willin' to extend to you the doubt-benefit thing because it's the way I roll.

Let's take a look at what I've posted:

Momentum, the ability of a bullet to penetrate, is a function of velocity and mass.

Match bullet to game at a suitable velocity at where game is to be shot, and you're good to go.

A suitable bullet fired from a .308 Win will kill big game farther than most shooters can shoot.

Cartridge debates are fun...but biology wins every time.

Jus' sayin'...


Now, Boxer, what part of match to game is causing you problems?

Here's how this works. I know Joe. I know he's an accomplished hunter. Joe tells me he's going moose hunting. He's going to use his '06. Joe is no fool. He ain't gonna spend a lot $$$ and expend strenuous effort to hunt moose unless he's gonna use a Partition or similar bullet. He wouldn't even have to tell me. I'd know that Joe is beyond bright enough to match his bullet to his intended game.

Now, Boxer, do you think that any animal can live longer than seconds sans its heart and/or lungs? Do you really think it makes any difference to any big game animal whether a .300 Win Mag or a .308 Win caused oxygenated blood to stop flowing to its brain?


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Is this the fella who did the stunt sex for Brokeback Mountain? If not, it must be his twin brother.

Jus' Sayin'...
[Linked Image]




�If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.�
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SloppyPoozy,

Why is it that you Pointy-Headed Cross-Eyed Drooling Dumb [bleep],IMMEDIATELY default to cramming things in your mouth and ass?!? Weren't my intent to horn you up Sweetheart,but as per always...there ain't no slighting your taste in men.

Very good call to refrain ALL things The Rifle and to use enough Pretend,to Imagine "Joe". In fairness and as you ohhhh sooooooooo eloquently attest and are amazingly oblivious to,Joe Average sure as [bleep] ain't very bright. Congratulations?!?

Have I seen Big Game with hole(s) in heart/lungs travel better than your delusional "seconds"? Yep. Longer than minutes? Yep. Longer than hours? Yep. If you wanna see how fast schit can run,punch a [bleep] lung and unleash the Hounds. Literally.

You poor poor sappy Clueless [bleep],I enjoy your Imagination and Pretend almost as much as you do,though for very different reasons. Laffin'! I get a kick outta how "real" your Imagination and Pretend are to you. Re-laffin'.

Double Dog Dare as per always,to hang a pic of your pointy-head and crossed-eyes,with a Splendid Beastie you "oxygenated". I'm looking forward to them Excuses and yet another fresh batch of Whine,as you talk even further out your ass,about those things you "know" the [bleep] least about.

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot!

Wow +P.


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and speaking of Ballistics,

[Linked Image]


wonder what the BC is of a 120 lb. Hill Country Hoglet launched out of an 18" dia x 4' pig canon with 1/2 plywood wad over a 1 lb coffee can of Tannerite.




I will say this. The yuk-yuks definitely increase in direct proportion to hang time.

[Linked Image]

Real enough fer ya! LOL

Best,

GWB





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I think I would pick a side and argue it, or even argue the validity of my experience more vehemently if I thought I could change anyone's thinking process. It really doesn't matter if I do or don't though. Some guys will never believe that a medium capacity 6mm is ideal for elk. Some guys will never believe that lightly constructed bullets are optimum for big game hunting. Some guys will never believe that 500 yds is a responsible distance to shoot big game. Hell, some guys believe a 30-06 is a 300yd max caliber for hunting. There are reasons why the above are true for some, and why they are false for others.

My next big thing is hunting with cast bullets. I realized it was time to either go more primitive or invest a lot more money in gear for the long-range thing. Who wants to argue ballistics gack about cast bullets? A whole new set of rules...



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Mebbe someone will mention The Billy Dixon Shot? Ooops.(grin)

No matter the Game,the principles remain the same...but the amount of English requisite changes drastically at like distances,as a function of launch speed and BC.

While not exactly cast,though of the ilk,I just might could be a fan of launching SOFT lead to 500yds+ via crosshair intersections. Am patiently awaiting a handful of 75MOA rails to stretch things even farther,but am getting by in the interim.

[Linked Image]

One can reach 1K++ in High Style,for veddy veddy modest funds and it's a misnomer to muse that it's a Park Avenue penchant.

Faux Ti 243Win/105 kiss/Fixed [bleep] and you are there for under a bushel...with 1500yds++ of erector latitude.

Hint.

Just sayin'.


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