Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General 35 remington lovers out there?

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35 Remington is a 358 with the flu.

or a 30/30 that has been hitting the gym real regularly

Never been a lever guy but always wanted a 35 REM fer some reason....Recently bought a 1963 Marlin 336 and can't wait to get it in to fire off some rounds. I don't reload and don't find many options local fer ammo. I haven't checked the local BPS, where do ya'll usually get your stuff???

Without reloading? Wow, that's a tough one. I see it at our local shop occasionally, we have a flea market with a couple regular gun guys and they come across odd lots of ammo too. Otherwise, gunbroker will undoubtedly have ammo for sale.

That's about the biggest "old wives tale" out there. I sold my .35 after killing enough deer with it to reach the conclusion that it just wasn't quite as effective as my .30-30 and that all the gun pundits who praised it for it's superior killing power throughout the years were just plain full-o-chit .

For deer, I don't see much difference, though definitely not less effective than the 30-30. The 35 starts to shine when the game gets bigger.

Ever try the 35 Buffalo Bore 220gr at 2200 FPS ?

Heavier bullet with larger diameter at about the same speed, yet LESS effective? VERY interesting perspective to say the least.

I sold my 336 35 Rem in favor of my 336 in 356 Win.

I prefer my 35 Rems to look like this:

That's a sexy beast!

I just picked up the twin to my early 50s made 336 in .30-30. I can't wait to get it going. A buddy of mine hunts exclusively with a .35 Remington and he seems to get a little better blood trail than does my .30-30. Both work pretty darn good though.

For black bear at close range the 35 Rem is hard to beat. I still carry a model 8 Remington when backing up clients and/or searching for a wounded animal. In heavy cover at very close range it is good to know you have a reliable rifle that can spit five rounds of 200 grain slugs as fast as the trigger can be pulled.

A 35 caliber, 200 grain bullet moving at essentially the same speed as a lighter and smaller 30-30 bullet "less" effective? Holy defies physics Batman!

I have owned and used both the 30-30 and a 35 Remington. The 35 has consistently put animals down faster and with better blood trails. In fact I would say that the 30-30 is "THE CALIBER" for any skilled tracker looking for a supreme challenge. Never spent so much time searching for deer without a blood trail in my life.

Not if you understand physics. A 170 gr 30-30 bullet will easily out penetrate a 200 gr 35 caliber bullet. The only advantage a 35 has over a 30-30 is in the minds of those who want to see a difference.

I have no ax to grind with the round, but it isn't anything magical either.

The original comment had nothing to do with penetration which is hardly the issue with either cartridge. Both will fully penetrate a deer. Hell you can shoot through Alabama deer with a 22 magnum. Traumatic tissue damage kills. And there is no way in hell that a 200 grain 35 caliber bullet traveling at the same speed as a 170 grain 30 caliber bullet is going to do less damage. Which is the claim I responded to. Want to argue that the difference is negligible? Fine. But to claim it will do less damage is just ignorant.

True dat. If you were to run the two loads through calculators like Taylor KO value and such, the 35 Rem will always come out on top. Saying the 30-30 "will easily out penetrate the 35 Rem" is just plain not true. Penetration calculators like Hornady HITS calculator would show them to be extremely close. Nearly the same. Or the one Beartooth bullets has on their site. However, the 35 is gonna cause more damage no matter how you slice it.

A quote from Hornady manual: "The 35 Remington is ballistically superior to the 30-30 Winchester, and closely approximates the 375 Winchester".

Saying the 30-30 kills more effectively than the 35 Rem is kinda like saying the same about 308 vs. 358 or 30-06 vs. 35 Whelen, IMO. Only difference is, the larger bullets are actually traveling slower out of these cartridges. My 200gr 35 Rem loads travel nearly the identical speeds as my 170gr 30-30 loads. And they are visibly larger. You can't argue with physics.

Anyhoo, I'm not trying to argue. Both are great, classic cartridges. I own 4-5 30-30s. Only 1 35 Rem now........

Get one of these and you won't have any doubt which of the 3 hits harder





Actually, the 356 doesn't get used any more. It is near mint and kinda rare, so it sits in safe. I still hunt with my 71s in 348, Marlin 444SS, and Win 88 in 308. All my other leverguns just sit. Although, I have given thought to busting out a 30-30 soon. But I just put a brand new scope on the 35 Rem model 141. So......

I found a guy on another local forum that had 200 and 250 grain reloads....We'll see how it works. Didn't see much ballistic info fer 250 grain, but it'll be a close proximity shooter fer me anyways.

That's going to be very effective for you I'm sure.

Ditto, I LOVE my Mod 14 35. I shoot open sighted what a fun rifle.

Haven't killed anything yet with this one, but hopefully, a wild hog will be on the agenda soon.
Bob

30-30 vs 35 REM, I wonder how many bars fights this has started in PA?

i have one of those SS LTD 35's too. seriously nice rifles. my son has taken it over and i am back to using my 336D when i am in the mood for a 35 lever hunt.

Well Todd, I've killed nigh on 70 deer with the .30-30 and 15 with the .35 and I beg to differ. No question the .30-30 has put them on the ground quicker for me on average, given similar shot placement. Velocity isn't the same between the two {actual chronographed factory load speeds run about 1950 for 200 gr .35's, 2300 for 150 gr. 30-30's and 2100 for the 170's all out of 20" barreled Marlin 336's} and in my experience, the .30-30's bullets just plain expand better/ more dependably {particularly at longer distances}. Blood trails have rarely been needed for me when using the .30-30, as it's been a fairly rare thing for deer to make it out of sight after being well hit. On the few occasions when one has, blood trails have always been adequate. I've yet to lose a single deer with the .30-30 and rarely have I had one travel more than 60 yards after being shot. My .35 punched one too many deer through and through, leaving essentially .35 caliber holes in and .35 caliber holes out, with relatively little damage in between.

just answering the op. yes I love the 35 rem. fine cartridge.

RGK,

If you are around central Texas and your S/N is in the 200's, thats likely one of my stolen LTD's. It was stolen in Bexar county. Would be real interested in getting it back if it is. I have police report too. Last lead I had on it was from a truck driver round New Braunfels way a few years back. Most LTD's can be accounted for by me because I own and can account for over half of the limited supply. My LTD fetish can be found under "Jake" from MO site. I simply bought them up.

I agree with Blackheart all the way on the 30-30 -vs- 35 debate. I used to think the 35 would perform better on larger game than a 30-30 but that hasn't held true either. And, yes I've tried everything they make for the 35 including BB. The 30-30 just plain does a better job but the LTD is just a damn nice rifle. I hit deer with 30-30 Winchester Powermax HP and they DRT each and every time. The 150 grain 30-30 HP absolutely does more damage and creates a larger exit wound than any factory or handloaded 35 remington in existance.

I'd love to know what factory loaded 200gr bullets you use at 1950 fps that do not expand at all. Please, do tell.

I can easily push a 220gr Speer FP over 2000 fps with my 35 Rems. And they expand nicely. 200 gr can be safely pushed to 2200+ fps.

My 30-30 handloads and 35 Rem handloads both run around 2100 fps. With 170gr and 200gr jacketed soft points, respectively. Both mushroom nicely. To say the smaller diameter, lighter bullet did greater damage would be ludicrous.

You may not notice much difference on deer, but the 35 is easily the better choice for anything larger. Especially when handloaded to it's true potential.......

This one deserves framing......

I've killed more game and non-game animals in one year with the 35 and 30-30 than most folks will in three lifetimes. Frame it if you want, but the Powermax 30-30 is the one to beat right now and the 35 with Leve-E doesn't do as well.

I'm not dissing the 35 rem, no human owns more of them than I do. The 35 doesn't work as good as the 30-30, even on larger game.

The 30-30 Powermax is clocking 2315 out of a 20", goes slam through a 240lb whitetail with an average larger than golf ball exit wound. All of mine have been DRT, no frag, and no recovered projectile. The 35 is no match.

The 35 is in the neighborhood of 44 magnum velocity, but won't out perform the 44 at modest range. Thats a whole nudder subject though.

I don't bother handloading the 35 because the Leverevolution is as good it gets, and Buff Bore 220 if you need it. A fella can get by just fine with a 35 rem and those two ammo selections.

Some cult 35 Rem followers view it as mystical, it ain't. The 336SS-LTD is mystical.

I have both a 35 Remington and a 30-30 in Marlin 336's. Both good shooters too. I have mostly used both on feral hogs and have to say the 35 provides way better blood trails than the 30-30 on them. However I have recovered more bullets from the hogs hit with the 30-30 than the 35. I have not used factory loads on anything from either rifle in years and personally feel the 220 gr. Speer loaded to top book velocities as a step up from the 30-30.

I've recovered more off hide standard 30-30 bullets than 35 but,thats it. Every hog I've popped with powermax dies on the spot, most blowning a substaintial exit hole, bigger in diameter than the 35. If the 35 is mystical to someone, they should indeed use it.

Its a debate that I sincerely hope continues, at least another century.

It sounds to me that you believe the 30-30 to be "mystical". Not the other way around. When someone brags up a cartridge and starts talking about things that defy physics and simply makes noo sense, well, I think that is what they call a "fanboy" around here.

The 35 can be pushed as fast as a 30-30 only with LARGER bullets. That is a FACT. It also penetrates as well or better. That is a FACT. It also makes a bigger hole. Another FACT. If you want to argue with that, go ahead. I'll stick with reality.

Also, if yu are simply using deer (especially puny southern deer) or small hogs as your only test medium, maybe you nee to think a little more outside of the buck.......just sayin'......

my 336 ss ltd 35 shoots around trees. but only with the 200 grain corelokts.

2muchgun

Your "FACTS" and Paper ballistic along with your "Physics" lessons are skewed by false information (or a broken chrono), and the way the projectile performs. Your facts aren't necessarily all wrong, but they don't support the preconceptions the facts would lend one to believe. The FACT is the 35 does make a larger entrance hole, its exit hole is lacking and does not compare to the powermax hp 30-30. I feel the 30-30 LeverEvolution is better suited for Elk than the PHP if your rifle likes it. Your so called "laws of physics" kinda went out the window for me after a year of hunting with the 243 using Hornady Super-performance 80gr GMX. THATS A MYSTICAL COMBO.

I kinda start with the FACT of how well, or not so well a caliber performs,then work backwards. I limit my preconceived notions of why or why not a particular caliber should perform better or worse. It may not make any "Sense", but it IS!

You can insult me if you want but I hunt all game animals, all over the United States and world. Your Michigan deer ain't any bigger than certain Species of your so called "Southern Whitetail" from Alabama, Texas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Misery, and more. Your deer fall just as easy as the rest. I know, because I hunt your deer too. You would do well to learn the sub-species of whitetails before you term some puny.

I've killed about everything there is with both calibers, everywhere. From birds to 1,600lb animals including Feral cattle.

Both calibers are classics, and adequate for most anything within 200 yards but I still give the edge to the 30-30 from performance, to off the shelf shooting cost.

I'll continue to subscribe to your newsletter, but I think you lack enough real experience with the two rounds. I use it all year long, shoot them both almost ever single day.

I'll continue to use both calibers, but I can send you a few 35 rem rounds to use as suppositories if you'd like.

Again, Its a debate that I sincerely hope continues, at least another century. I certainly vow to do my part.

Just don't see how a 220 gr. bullet at 2100 fps is less gun than a 170 at the same velocity. If you feel this way fine.

It isn't. But you aren't going to change his mind with facts, logic, ballistics , or personal experience.

It sounds like he doesn't even handload, yet still somehow believes he knows it all and has seen it all. I own 4 30-30s and 2 35 Rems. Handload them all. But apparently my opinion/experiences are invalid and my chrony is broken......

I don't reload for these two calibers, ain't no need too. The best you can get for both is on the store shelves. I don't shoot 170 gr, and the 150's are moving faster. It might not be a substantial difference in velocity to some of you folks, but its enough to change how the projectile performs for sure.

You'll never change my mind with the paper facts or flawed logic when probably over four hundred animals have fallen to these two calibers in my life, so far. I know which bullet is best for the caliber for a particular application, and which caliber performs the best on average out of the two. I have more rifles of both calibers, and have killed more with both, than maybe everyone on this forum combined.

Again, Its a debate that I sincerely hope continues, at least another century. I certainly vow to do my part.

Your assessment of my "beliefs" is flawed too. Just like I used to "believe" in God, since I met him in ICU in August of 1992...I'm not a believer, I'm a knower.

You go right ahead and believe what you want to believe. I don't give a damn what your chronograph says. I don't give a damn what the "energy figures" for your handloads are and I don't give a damn how many rounds you've loaded for what. I've killed a couple long schit-tons of deer with many different cartridges and bullets. I've watched their reactions, recorded distances traveled after the shot with various shot placements and done hundreds of post mortems noting penetration, wound volume/destruction and exit hole sizes and I know damned good and well what I'm talking about here.

Oh, so you started this crap in post #6.

I disagree. But I would still like to know what factory 35 Rem load (as quoted by you)clocks 1950fps and does not expand at all. Please do tell......

Chock full of foolishness, ain't it?

Yep. Factory ammo is better than handloads. Of course, you wouldn't know now would you?

Not sure how many members here now, but I reckon you aren't the only one who has killed $hit with a 30-30 and 35 Rem. Just a hunch.

Other than Blackheart's reply on the non-expanding 35 Rem load, I've become decidedly uninterested in this thread. One outlandish comment after another. Your credibility is shot to anyone who knows wtf they are talking about. You all clearly haven't a clue.....

First off, I haven't bad mouthed the 35 Rem, just stated the performance ain't up to 30-30 in some applications. You don't know whether I reload or not, you just know I don't reload for those two calibers because "There is no need to". Nothing you can roll yourself will add anything significant, and in most cases insignificant compared to some of the wonderful factory loadings availible.

Your problem with the whole thread is, I said something you don't agree with. If you are decidingly uninterested, don't post. If you do post, you are as big a contradiction as your 35 performance -vs- the overwhelming ballistics numbers.

I have to agree with Blackheart, The expansion with the 35 rem at those low velocities ain't all that, but the caliber is still useful and penetrates pretty well.

Again, I hope the 30-30 -vs- 35 rem debate continues for another 100 years. Its a good thing

If you wanna compare your numbers kinda apples to apples, then look at the 160gr 30-30 LeverE -vs- the 200gr at 100 and 150 yards. The velocity I actually get in my respective barrel lengths are 35rem 2115 and the 30-30 2325fps. The energy is fairly equivalent but the deciding factor in bullet performance is the velocity difference.

If the hand rolled 35 rem performs better in your perception of reality, so be it.

You make one outlandish comment after another. Your credibility is shot to anyone who knows wtf they are talking about. You all clearly haven't a clue.....

I have a 336 in .35 Remington....bought it more for nostalgia than anything else. My grandfather had the same rifle and it was the first centerfire rifle I was allowed to shoot. I managed to scrounge up 3 shells,and we put a Hills Brothers coffee can about 75 yards out on the edge of the woods. My granddad handed me the cartridges one at a time, and I pushed them through the loading gate (I was 11 or 12 at the time). With hands shaking, I worked the lever, and took careful aim just like I was shooting my Daisy BB gun. I squeezed the trigger (jerked is probably more accurate, as I'm sure I flinched due to the perceived recoil), and heard the big slug go through the brush behind the target, the can being unscathed.
I racked in the second round, took aim, fired, and had similar results as the bullet plowed through the brush. My granddad took the rifle from me and loaded the third round, took aim....and missed. We heard the bullet as it clicked through the brush behind the target.
I haven't had an opportunity to take any game with the rifle....I'll probably sell it come spring. I have a .30/30 Winchester 94 that I took my first deer with, so I guess that's enough nostalgia at my age. Not much opportunity to hunt deer any more.

Great story, if you are buying for nostagia, the 30 wcf is the clear choice.

Win. Power Point 200 gr. factory loads clocked 1930 fps. out of my 336C and Rem. 200 gr core lokt went about 1980. Neither was any great shakes as far as internal wound destruction or exit wound size as compared to any number of 150 gr. .30-30 factory loads or the 170 gr. Winchester silvertips but old myths like "bigger bullet = more damage = better,quicker killer" die hard.

Power Points and Corelokts that don't expand. Very interesting. Maybe a first. Never heard such a claim before now......

Muchgun, I knew you couldn't really stay away


Any big bullet "myths" for me were erased forever by the 80gr GMX Hornady 243, if David Copperfield could magically DRT game animals with a BB gun, it would be no less of a mind boggling feat.

Like I said, do away with preconceived notions based on what numbers tell you, then look at the actual results, and work backwards.

The only thing left in the 30-30 -vs- 35 equation is about 200fps more velocity and seemingly better performing projectiles. How does that 200fps and smaller diameter make that much difference...It does!

Lets start talking about the 7-08 with modern projectiles and why it could now be the perfect all game caliber.

Bizarre and twisted. What is wrong with you people?

I shoot a 35 Rem, a 32 Sp and a 30 WCF, apparently the game hasn't read this thread because they have all seem to die just fine and not one has asked "What hit me" before they went down. No chrono or ballistic charts involved.

Sure they die, but there is a difference

Normally, you would be wrong right now. BUT, I just so happen to have re-scoped my 35 Rem and need to handload for it this weekend, as I will have no more time before deer season. It has been a while since I used the old gal.

I just checked my bullet supply and 200gr Hornady RN seems to be all that's available. No matter, they perform the same as the 200gr Core-Lokts and PowerPoints do. All expand well and kill reliably.

Upon cracking the Hornady manual I found:

"The 35 Rem is superior in ballistics to the 30-30 Win and closely approximates the 375 Win."

So I decided to crack open a couple more manuals.

My Sierra Manual states:

"Delivering a more decisive punch than the 30-30, the 35 Rem has been a highly popular deer cartridge for decades."

And Speer #14 says:

"The 35 Rem is a better hunting cartridge than the 30-30 Winchester. Although "paper ballistics" show little difference, the 35 Rem handles heavier bullets for deeper penetration. Handloading GREATLY extends the usefulness of the cartridge."

Now please note: I am THE LAST guy who forms his opinions from reading gun rags or from guys on the net. I'm a trigger squeezer, and form my OWN opinions thusly.

However, these are ballistician's writing this, not just Joe Shmo. They make the bulllets, and do the tests. I'd say they have a clue. Furthermore, these writings also happen to depict my own personal experiences/findings/opinions.

There is a manuscript called "1000 Tags Filled". I seem to have lost my e-copy of it. From what I do recall, they shot around 200 critters with a 30-30. They found it to require more second and third follow-up shots than nearly any other big game cartridge. Also, it was at or near the top of the list for unrecovered game. As well as distance traveled after the shot. Read it sometime. No opinions, just facts and real life experiences. No agendas.

Now I will add, for the record, I have not had a problem with losing deer shot with my 4-5 30-30s. However, IME, the 35 delivers a more solid thump, creates larger wound channels/blood trails, and they run less distance, if at all.

If you were to actually handload, you would quite possibly see more of a difference between the 2 cartridges. The 35 can be pushed a good bit faster and bullet expansion is therefore greater.

It is funny, you claim the 30-30 kills better than what "paper ballistics" show. Yet this is the exact thing I have heard said about the 35 Rem my whole life. I never hear anyone make that claim about the 30-30. Ever.

Anyhoo, I know I haven't changed your mind about it. I just hope the outlandish claims will end. Too many to even address, so I won't bother.....

As for mystical 243 loads and 7mm-08s, I have killed lot of critters with both. A LOT.

But this is not the thread for that discussion.....

Really??? HMMMM interesting, I always assumed dead was dead I'll have to explore this most confusing phenomenon as to whether one animal can be more dead than another when killed with a different calibre/bullet I'll report back

I'm not disputing "dead is dead". From a "killologist" stand point, you can tell a difference in the details leading up to that death.

I put the 357mag, 35rem and 375win in the same category for 150 yard kill results, and the 356 Win edges those out with a hand-load. I'm always pleasantly surprised with the 32win.

2much, I haven't bad mouthed the 35, I hope they are both availible for our great grandchilderen to debate. If you like reading all the material regarding facts, logic, and so called real world results, thats fine. Use all that as your personal gospel. I told you before, I see how it kills and work backwards. Many times it defies logic and fact. I have no preconceived outcome based on numbers, facts, and words. Likewise, I don't base a gun purchase on someone else's take of accuracy. I've never needed a follow up shot on any game animals (with any caliber) in my life, except one. It was a buck that took a round of 160 leverevolution through the heart and kept WALKING up a creek bank like he was never hit. I think that round doesn't expand well enough on animals under 250lbs.


I've used handloads, factory, beyond SAAMI, current and past of every loading they make for both calibers. The year that Hornady LeverE 30-30 went south on me, I switched to the Bonded Powermax 150gr HP. I killed truckloads of game that year too. It was the first time in my life using either of those two calibers with any load, that EVERYBODY seeing the animal on the rack said "What the hell did you shoot that with?"

Heres to a long life of both calibers, the perception of the capabilites of both, and a continued healthy debate.

Just Keep in mind, There are some 308MX and 338MX guys laughing at both of us.

Cast bullets -- 35 Rem gets nod

I never meant to imply that 200 gr. 35's won't ever expand at all. Judging by the damage they inflict on deer carcasses, they apparently DO NOT expand to the degree or with the consistency of most .30-30 bullets, particularly when ranges extend. I gave up putting too much stock in what gun writers say in magazines or loading manuals long ago, particularly when it disagrees with my own experience which at this point is quite extensive, both in the field, and at the loading and gunsmithing benches. Furthermore, bullet expansion characteristics and velocity at impact have far more to do with killing effect than pre expansion bullet diameter and/or weight. If you knew HALF as much as you'd like us all to believe you do, I wouldn't have to tell you these things. Oh, and BTW, I started handloading in the early 70's and continue to this day. I rarely load for the .30-30 anymore however, as it simply adds so little to performance that I feel it's a waste of my time.

All I can tell you is that I have plenty of experience also, and that my experiences differ from yours. And that whether or not you choose to believe any ballistics/data, or the quotes from the reloading manuals, I only posted them because they state exactly what I already know to be true from real world experience.

When you tell me "35 caliber holes in and 35 caliber holes out on deer", well that is just simply a phenomenon I have yet to witness with a 35 Remington...

How many deer have you killed with the .35 and .30-30 and at what ranges ? I also have only stated what I know to be absolute fact based on my own experience. It does not agree with the tales told by many ballisticians and gunwriters over the years but there it is. I do have to wonder just how many deer those "experts" ever killed with the two cartridges. My bet would be a big fat "ZERO" in most cases.

Just for the record, I never quoted any gunwriters. Just 3 reloading manuals. I was actually loading 35 Rem loads at the time. And yesterday morning, dialed them in nicely.

What you need to understand, is that you are talking about 2 VERY similar projectiles. When it comes to velocity and SD they are nearly identical. The most popular bullets for them are also nearly identical in construction and both expand about the same %. The only difference is, one is LARGER and HEAVIER. And, when handloaded, the 35 Rem case is also LARGER than the 30-30 case. It leaves more room for improvement. Plus, you can load 220s to 2000fps+. NO 30-30 load is going to outpenetrate it, or make a bigger hole. And, like it or not, my handloads ARE faster with either cartridge. More accurate too. My experience backs this up, and so does flat out physics and logic. There are NO magical rounds. NONE. Only physics. All else being equal, the 35 Rem is a more potent round. It can't not be.

The 35 Rem was my first deer rifle. And no, it doesn't hold a special place in my heart because of that. I honestly don't know how many I killed with it, or how many deer I've killed in my life. Let's just say "plenty" on both counts. I killed my first deer with a 30-06. Not a favorite round of mine, but I own several. When I speak of rifles/cartridges, I am completely unbiased. ALWAYS.

When you hear the term "deer bullet", people are talking Core-Lokts, Powerpoints, Hornady RN, SGK, Speer Hot-Cor, etc. etc. Plain old cup and core jacketed softpoints. Been killing millions of deer for 100 years now. When you tell me one of them doesn't expand, it's hard to believe. That's what they are KNOWN for. If the 35 Rem wasn't better than the 30-30, it would have vanished from the shelves long ago(just like the 30 Rem, 25 Rem, and 32 Rem did). It is still around for a reason.

Anyway, we are beating a dead horse now as neither of us is gonna change their opinion........

It seems to me if the .35 really was superior in any demonstrable way the .30-30 wouldn't have outsold it by 100's to one. To the contrary though, the .35 is nearly obsolete while the .30-30 remains in the top 5 in overall ammunition sales year after year. Perhaps the general public has known all along what you refuse to believe. The real fact of the matter is that 150 grain .30-30 loads run a solid 300-350 fps faster than 200 grain 35's. Due to slightly higher BC's in most makers bullets, they also retain their velocity better over distance. To say 300fps is inconsequential to bullet performance/expansion at this velocity level is asinine. Furthermore, the sectional density of 150 grain 30 caliber bullets at .226 is virtually identical to the sectional density of a 200 grain .35. Therefore, given similar bullet construction and expansion rates, would penetrate virtually the same distance in any given medium if driven to the same velocity. 170 grain. 30 caliber bullets, with their sectional density at .256 would OUT PENETRATE a 200 grain .35 if driven to identical velocity and given the same construction and expansion rate. We won't even mention the 190 grain Hawk soft point meant specifically for the .30-30 to give deeeeep penetration in the largest game. Buffalo bore loads those to 2100 fps in their .30-30 factory loads. None of this really means much except in theory and maybe on paper. The Fact is, 200 grain .35's usually run 300 fps SLOWER than 150 grain 30-30's and that makes a difference in expansion given same/same bullet construction, particularly on lung shots where no significant bone is hit. But is bullet construction identical as you claim ? Not hardly and one need look no further than your aforementioned "Core-Lokt" in 150 .30-30 vs. .200 gr. .35Rem. to see that. At this point you should be getting the idea that you're not going to "educate" me on the .30-30 vs .35 debate, nor on anything to do with bullet performance or ballistics. I've earned my living in the firearms field for a good many years {and still do as a matter of fact} and am generally fairly well versed in this stuff even though I really don't care to talk about it much. Oh yes, and one more thing. In my collection of recovered bullets I have one 170 grain Winchester Sivertip .30-30 bullet. It was shot directly into the brisket of a 172 lb. {dressed} buck and recovered from against the bone in the ham. Penetration seemed entirely adequate to me and the expanded bullet measures .66" so I'd say expansion was pretty darned good too. The deer didn't argue any.

Toot your own horn all you want, I'll educate you long before you educate me on anything related to bullet performance or ballistics. You may know more than most, but I'm not most. People who believe they know more than I beacause they earn their living in the firearms field are some of my favorites to debate with. Providing they are capable of logical, civilized discussion

So what exactly do you do in the firearms industry that qualifies you as an authority on bullet performance and ballistics, as you state? Do tell. And why do you not believe your colleagues at Hornady, Speer, and Sierra(to name few) when they put in writing, in their manuals, that the .35 is more potent than the 30-30?

Sales figures? Really? You wanna base your opinion on sales figures? LMAO. If you can't figure out why the 30-30 outsells the 35 in ammunition sales, well, I won't bother pointing it out for you. It sure has nothing to do with performance. Nice try though.

LOTS of cartridges throughout history that outperformed their counterparts but waned in the sales dept. LOTS. Being in the industry, I figured you would have known as much. Guess not.

Your numbers are flawed. But, if you must, I'll afford you your extra 300fps with your smaller diameter bullet of 25% less weight.

Being the firearms guru that you are, I'm sure you have heard of the Taylor TKO system of evaluating cartridge lethality. Right? Lotsa respectable gun afficionados believe it to be a pretty fair indicator of a cartridge's capabilities. Including myself. There are some others like it, and most give close to the same results.

Anyhoo, it takes into account diameter, weight, and velocity. Not just energy figures like most.

Your bullet at 2500ps has a TKO value of 17. Mine at 2200fps has a TKO of 23. It's not even close. Again, just numbers. But IMO, numbers that make sense and are on par with my experience with the 2 cartridges.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/res...ylor.htm?bw=150&bv=2500&cal=.308

As for outpenetrating the 35 I will say this. Typical SDs for said bullets are .226 for the 150gr 30-30 and .223 for the .200gr 35. Nearly identical and NO advantage to either. But, the 35 is just bigger and heavier. Advantage to the .35.

You seem to like to switch back and forth from the 150 to the 170s depending upon which favors your cause. 150 velocities but then 170 sectional densities. Pick one, you can't have both.

If your 170s have a SD of .256 as you claim, AGAIN they are almost same as a 220 gr .35 bullet. No SD advantage to either. And AGAIN the 35 makes a bigger hole.

We can do this all day. As I stated earlier, you have 2 rounds with nearly identical everything, BUT, one is LARGER, makes a bigger hole and CANNOT help but do more damage. Cannot.

God forbid should one of these bullets hit bone and partially fragment. More bullet = more fragments =more blood/trauma. And the 35 still retains a larger/heavier core, in addition.

The 35 could shed about 25% of it's weight, send 50 grains worth of fragments in any given direction, and still retain the same weight of an unscathed 30-30 bullet. And would still be of greater diameter. I guess this is why the vast majority consider it the deadlier round. In some cases, tis is EXACTLY what happens.

Handload both to their full potential, and the 35 gains an even greater advantage. Not my opinion, but a fact.

Anyway, it's your story, tell it any way you want. Some 30-30 fanboy will, no doubt, believe you. Just don't expect me to. I know better.....

Heres a little reading on .35Rem bullet testing: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/a...performance-edited-sections-part-ii.html

Survey Says......

200 Grain Corelokt is the best all around bullet in a 35. same thing my dad told me 40 years ago after having hunted with them since they came out.

i remember about 40 years ago my dad and i were hunting deer on top of a cold, windy mountain in PA. i was about 100 yards from him and a herd of deer came hauling past him and he shot at a spike in the bunch. we went over to where the spike had been and found about a 4" tree that was shot through and through. thinking he had missed, we almost walked away until he saw a little spot of blood a few feet away. following the blood trail about 50 yards over the side of the ridge and there was the spike. the corelokt had punched right through the tree and into the deer with enough energy to kill it.

as the old motorhead saying goes, "theres no replacement for displacement"

I agree the Corelokt is about optimum. Have used many. But others work good also. Sierras act very similar.

I use 200gr Hornady handloads right now. They dont expand as well at longer ranges, but penetrate deep and still kill reliably.....

i don't worry about long range with the 35 anyway. i think the furthest i've shot a deer with the 35 was about 75 yards. most within 40. my son has been using the LE ammo in his 336 with good results just to be different than his dad. they are devastating actually. my old pump guns like the 200 CL's and due to a gunshop closeout deal about 10 years ago, i have enough for me and a few future generations.

What a dunce you are. TKO values ? Yeah, I've read all about the theory and it's straight up unadulterated bunk. At least in any discussion of cartridge effectiveness on DEER. I'll give you a little insight on just how well it works. I've probably killed more deer with shotgun slugs and large bore conical muzzleloader bullets than you've ever seen. Despite their huge diameter and hulking weight, they DO NOT put deer on the ground as quickly as any number of higher velocity, small bore rifle cartridges, including the .30-30 and such flyweights as the .243 Winchester. That's STONE COLD FACT and you can take it to the bank. As far as the WRITERS who give their opinion on cartridge effectiveness in your loading manuals, {I have those loading manuals BTW and could just about recite those quotes of yours word for word from memory} I have serious doubts that they've ever shot a deer, or anything else with a .35 or .30-30 in their lives and precious damned little with anything else. Right now I earn my living as a full time pistol smith building high end, semi custom/custom 1911's. I spent years prior doing general gunsmithing and custom riflesmithing. None of that makes me an expert on terminal ballistics or cartridge effectiveness of course but 40 years of killing the living schidt out of everything that walks, crawls or fies gives me quite a bit of insight on the matter. In What firearms related field do you make your living and what qualifies you as an expert on terminal ballistics and cartridge effectiveness ? Your pretty good at reading books and quoting other peoples opinions but just exactly how much game have you grounded with the .30 WCF and how many of it's wound tracks have you compared with the .35 ?

Yep, the .35 does alright as long as you keep it close. Start stretching it past 100 yards and it's not so hot. particularly on broadside lung shots.

I don't hunt deer with shotguns, they are for shooting shot. Glad you finally figured that one out after killing more deer than anyone with a shotgun. Exactly how many did it take before it dawned on you? Now that's what a DUNCE is.

I don't give 2 $hits about what writers say, because I know more than most of them. Especially the writers of today. Ballisticians and writers are NOT one and the same, although some ballistician's do write.

So you are independent? As in, you don't actually work for a firearms company or "in the industry" as you say?

How you believe being a gunsmith of any kind qualifies you as a ballistics expert or expert on bullet performance is beyond me. It doesn't. Unlike you, I never claimed to be anything. I'm just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many guns.

I'd also bet it all that I've owned more guns, fired more guns, loaded more rounds, and killed more deer than you EVER have.

Dialed in six this week. 4 today. How about you?

LMAO. A pistolsmith makes you an authority on terminal rifle ballistics. I gotta remember that one.

I shot with 2 guys today who do NOTHING but shoot all day, every day. You probably wouldn't even have been able to keep up with the conversation.

Here's my stash. Well, all I could fit into the pic, anyway. About 28 different powders and 12,000 bullets. Not counting the 1000s I have loaded and the 700 I shot this week. Surely being the expert you are, you must have FAR more than poor lil' old me.

Let's see yours, Mr. Firearms Industry.............laffin'......

You'd lose that bet sure as the sun rises in the East. It never ceases to amaze me how many schmucks from the hills think they've put more rounds downrange or more effort and time into the study of firearms and related fields than a gunsmith. If you've done so much and put so much time and effort into it then why aren't you making your living building guns or writing loading manuals ? I bet you all know more about medicine than your doctor's do too. As to how many rounds I've put down range, let's just say it's been part of my job to test fire ALOT of firearms for both function and accuracy for alot of years and leave it at that. I also shot competitively for years and fired 10s of thousands of rounds per year in the process. The most deer I ever killed in one day is 7 and the most in one season 13. I killed alot of deer with shotgun slugs because there are alot of deer in shotgun only zones and I hunted in one regularly for over 20 years. And schit, your pic is kinda cute but my brother had more powder and components than that in the back of his van when he returned from a gunshop run through NY and Pa. last weekend. WTF does how many guns you dialed in today or how much powder you have on hand have to do with killing deer or anything else with .35's and 30-30's ? You still never told us all just how many you've slain with either. All you have done is tell us that some writer in a loading manual says the .35 shoots bigger, heavier bullets and is therefore more effective. My ASSS.

Does a shotgun slug have basically the same SD and BC and velocity as a 30-30? If not, it doesn't belong in this conversation. Quit trying to change the subject. I have lived/hunted in a " shotgun zone" also. Although I was never dumb enough to use a shotgun as handguns and muzzleloaders were also legal. The fact that you killed untold numbers with one shows your a$$. Hilarious.

The reason why I've "done so much and put so much time and effort into it" and don't make a living at it is because I make a better living at what I do. Pretty self explanatory.

So in other words, you don't work "in the industry" as you claimed, and you don't have enough components on hand to prove your credibility?

If I am wrong, please tell me what company you work for and show me all those components you keep for test firing. Surely it must be a vast supply.


Or are you just another internet poser?........

I'm not changing the subject at all. Shotgun slugs are far larger in caliber, far heavier, have more ft. lbs. of energy {at least at close range}and have a much higher "TKO value" than any.30-30 bullet, yet are without doubt inferior deer killers. Kinda shoots your theory that "bigger heavier bullets just have to be better killers" all to hell there Einstein.

I compared the 30-30 to the 35 Rem. Nothing more, nothing less. Quit putting words in my mouth and making assumptions/gross generalizations. Nobody said bigger is always better or anything about shotgun slugs. Try to focus.

Now, what company in "the industry" as you say, do you work for?

Where are all those test firing components? Anyone who shoots like you say you do, and makes a daily living at it, like you say you do, should have quite the pile of components. Lets see it.....

You still haven't said how many deer you've killed with the .30-30 or how many of it's wound tracks you've compared with those from the .35. Until you do, we really don't have much to talk about. I really think the truth is "none". I suspect that's why you keep quoting writers opinions on the subject and dodging the questions with accusations.

The only dodging has been done by you.

"None". Really? That is funny. LMAO. None may describe how many components you have on hand or how many firearms companies you work for.

I have personally killed double digits with each cartridge. I cannot put a an honest number on either. Owned 35s for 35years now. Own 4-5 30-30s currently. And then lets add on the 2 more dozen+ I have personally gutted and /or processed that my bud and his dad killed. One shoots a 35, the other a 30-30. Another guy at camp also uses a 30-30 often, as well as my friend Troy. So I will say I have personally "inspected" around 60 deer kills with said cartridges. I'd say that qualifies as an educated opinion. Of course, as every internet poser does, you will say you have shot far more. Isn't that how it ALWAYS goes?

We have tracked a number of 30-30 shot deer. Even lost a few. None shot by me. No 35 shot deer has been lost, but a few required tracking. Again, none shot by me. In each case, I'd say bullet placement had more to do with it than bullet performance.

Your turn.....

Just checked your profile. "Skilled trades" huh. So here we have Joe the f+cking plumber, who never shot a damned thing in his life with a .30-30 and precious damned litte with anything else' giving us the gospel on terminal ballistics of the .30WCF vs. the .35 Rem. Give me a F+ckin' break and GFY. I'm going to bed as I have guns to build in the morning.

More dodging. Nice. Sorry, not a plumber. Nor close.

I guess we will never see all those components or what firearms company you work for. Thought not.

Laffin'.......

So occupation determines rounds down range now.? Nice analogy. You're an idiot. I'm sure a pistol smith is right at the top of authorities on terminal rifle ballistics and rifle rounds fired. Yeah, go to bed before you are forced to admit the truth to Joe the Plumber. Nice cop out. Your fellow posers would be proud.

If you like, we could post pics of all the firearms we own. How about that? It may take me a couple days to get them all in, but I'm willing if you are.

What a joke. LMAO.

By all means go to bed. We all know the truth. By not saying anything, you just said it all

The great equaliser!

What did I miss?!? Who pissed the farthest?! I guess I'll go to the start of the thread and read.

I'll have the last word and the 220gr BB ain't the great equalizer. TKO theory is just a flawed as the rest of the theories. Every animal I've killed with a 35 did indeed pretty much have a 35-45 cal exit hole, nowhere close to the golf ball plus left by the 30-30 nor the blood trail. I've seen fat clog many of the exit holes on 35 Remington's with no blood trail.

2much gun has too much mouth. We can run this thread up to 1000 pages because I'm not gonna let some no account numnuts beat me into submission.

2much, I caution you, God, Uncle Sam, and the Mobile River Delta, has made me one of the luckiest and baddest on the planet. As per your threat from another thread about "stomping a mudhole in my ass", I've had far more dangerous of a woman than you try and get left on the battlefield.

And best quote of the thread goes to.... "I told you before, I see how it kills and work backwards. Many times it defies logic and fact." Congratulations!

Deer are not and will not ever be the test of a woods carbine. Guys are using 22 cal varmint bullets, for hell's sakes, and getting dramatic drt. If you want explosive kills on deer that surpass anything you get with a 30-30, load them up warm with 170-180gr 357 bullets and watch the tons of shiit drop.

This isn't rocket science, but it is close: ballistics science, and it is a science. There will never be world in this universe where a larger cal and higher speed kills less effectively, given like construction and that both exit.

Then you are the idiot, congrats!

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on how I am an idiot. I'm willing to concede it if you are willing to back it up.

It is hard for me to agree with statements you make that 'defy logic and fact', even according to you. So I am not an idiot if I agree with things that are illogical and fictional? Or do you still want to argue that even handloaded, the 30-30 kills better than the 35 Rem?

It may be the case that you are somehow correct, and that the science, views of ballistics technicians, and opinions of most others including myself are wrong. Like I said, I am willing to concede that if you can back it up with something. Otherwise, I'm going to stick with the physics, and you can feel free to call me whatever you like.

Too much talk exhaust itself.

I like your choice in guns and cartridges, btw. Those 336SS are pretty.

I can tell you that my 356 Win went LENGTHWISE through a big Texas hog hit at 30 yards. In neck out the left rear ham. Velocity was 2250 fps. That is pretty much equal to the BB load. I highly doubt any other 35 rem OR 30-30 load would have done that with cup and core bullets while expanding like mad.

Nice pics

Those were my results EXACTLY, over and over again. Color me unimpressed with the .35. The .30-30 just plain kills better and that's it, and that's all. I do still hear buck toothed, inbred, butt nuggets like 2muchscum say deer run for miles after being fairly poked with a .30-30. Those folks need to quit shooting deer in the a$$ and guts and learn where the vitals are. I think an anotomical chart or some shooting lessons would be of more use to them than trying to sound out the big words in yet another loading manual.

I've two 30-30's Winchester 64 and a Marlin 30A. I also have a 32 in a 94. I just bought a Rem 141 in 35. I'll mostly shoot cast bullets in the 35 as I do with the others. I suspect the pre-expanded bullet in the 35 will be more of a quick killer than the others. Since I can get factory velocities out of the 30-30's and the 32, I expect to do so with the 35 also.
I don't hunt deer from a tree and never will so I suppose the distances may be greater with my style of hunting than others, but not that much.
Expermenting with different loads, rifles, and bullets is what makes this fun. If I had to use the same rifle with the same load all the time, what fun would that be?

Everyone has different experiences and that is why we have opinions. Calling one another idiots due to our/their experiences is quite odd in my opinion.

By the the way, I think the 30-06 is better than the 270 in every game animal bigger than coyotes but the 270 is better for varmints.

;-)

Did we ever find out if RGK's rifle was stolen?

Mike

Hey look!

Mr. I got called out so I'm going to bed now has awoken from his beauty rest! Care to tell us what firearms company you work for now and what you do that qualifies you as an expert on terminal rifle ballistics? AS YOU STATED EARLIER.

Please do tell.

Or how about pics of that vast supply of components?

Or are you feeling sleepy again?

And please, don't PM me whining like a little bitch again.....

You killed a woman on the battlefield? Not surprising,

You said you "can be anywhere I want you to be". Did you not?

Or was that just you talking out your ass again?

Maybe if you weren't such a lowlife POS that insulted people's families and women and children alike, we wouldn't be having this little chat.

The fact that you find women "dangerous" is rather amusing.

I can assure you any "luck" you had was "dumb luck", Mr. Badass. Let me know when you get to Detroit. Otherwise, I'm done stooping to your level. Oh wait a minute, I haven't insulted any women or children, or people's families. I guess I haven't sunk to your level yet. Nor will I ever, you POS.....

Some of us have to work for a living unlike you f*cking welfare bums. Detroit ? figures you're a goddam city slicker to boot. You sure the hell don't know squat about killing schit with anything. And it's none of your goddam business who I work for you little pansy A$$. I am what I say I am. Not a goddam welfare case like you. "Skilled trades" my A$$ ! You're the one that removed yourself from private conversation so who's the "little bitch" here ? I don't know that I've ever seen such a moron in my life and you sure as hell aren't entertaining enough to be worth missing an hours sleep over.

LMAO. Can't seem to remove your foot from your mouth now, can you?

Keep dodging, that's okay. We all know now.

If you'd like, post a copy of your last paycheck, and I'll post a copy of mine. Then we can all laugh even harder at your ludicrous remarks I'm game if you are, and I don't dodge or talk out my ass. Put up or shut up a$$hole.

I removed myself from the PM you sent for reasons exactly as stated..... I HATE WHINERS. If you'd like, post a copy of it for all here to see if I am lying. I believe it states JUST THAT.

C'mon Mr. Firearms Industry, is that the best you can do?

I'm betting you NEVER post the PM, NEVER post all those components you (don't) have, NEVER post the paycheck, NEVER state who you work for, and NEVER tell us what makes you the "firearms industry expert" you claim to be.

What poser. Laffin'.........

What makes you an expert ? ............ Not a damn thing. You're not a ballistician {which means precisely Jack diddly in evaluating actual bullet wounds in actual dead animals you stupid A$$} you're not a gunsmith, in fact you've done precisely NOTHING that would make your opinion carry any weight at all. All you can do is babble on about ft lbs. of energy and TKO values and a bunch of other irrelevant schit thinking you're going to impress somebody with all the reading you've done. Not gonna happen here DUMBO. SupposedlY hunting/shooting is your hobby. Lotsa dedication there sport {sarcasm on dummy}. You can't even prove you shoot alot {which makes schit for difference here dumba$$} as you could have scarfed a picture from anywhere. In short, you're a big mouthed blowhard with NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER expecting me to prove something to you ? You are a complete idiot.

Another dodge. Who woulda thunk it????

NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.

Sure you don't wanna compare paychecks with this welfare case? I just got paid today?

Another BIGMOUTH POSER.........