Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats 400 Whelen, real world preformance.

I remember reading about this cartridges years ago and I just wanted to know if anyone had a experience with it, especially shots on game experience?

I don't really know what your looking for. There's a couple iterations of the 400 Whelen.

There's the classic heavy bullet softnose along with with solids that makes it a ballistic twin to the 450/400; 400gr bullets past 2,200 fps.

The other iteration is the wonderful 300gr X and 300gr TSX for the 405 Winchester. I have shot several hogs with these two bullets at 2,500 fps. I also shoots 41 mag bullets well and casters.

Its one round that blows corks out of pig gristle and makes tracking comedic.



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Forgot about the woodchuck...

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I have one I built 4 years ago. Great round. It has taken one caribou so far. That was with a 400 grain Woodleigh right at 250 yards. It was impressive. Bullet entered in front of the left shoulder and angled back through the lungs, just missed the heart and exited just behind the right shoulder. Approximately a 1.5-2" exit wound and it never move a step.

I have done pretty exhaustive research on the round, though not as much as the late Michael Petrov conducted. His research provided the impetus for me to build mine. I have tested a wide cross section of the currently available bullets. My gun did not care for the Hawk 300 and 350 grain bullets. It likes the 300 grain Hornady and Barnes X and TSX bullets, the 350 grain Swift A Frame and Barnes Original X, and the 400 grain Hornady, Hawk and Woodleigh RN. It is also fond of cast bullets from 320 to 400 grain.

It really is my favorite rifle. Recoil is very manageable from my 8.5 pound rifle. It is wonderfully accurate and it will drive a 400 grain bullet to 2150 fps, duplicating the 450/400 Nitro Express in a magazine rifle. I would feel entirely confident hunting anything in the world with this rifle.

Micheal's excellent research and articles debunking the 400 Whelen head space myth is borne out by my own experience. In 1300 rounds of load development I've not had any misfires. Nor have I even been able to deliberately create a head space problem by placing a round in front of the extractor.

A common misconception about the 400 Whelen, is that it is a 30-06 simply necked up to .411. It is not. It has a shoulder diameter of .458 where as the 30-06 has a shoulder diameter of .441. The 400 Whelen, of 1923 origin, really is one of the earliest "improved" case designs on the 30-06 case, predating Ackley and his work. In fact the 400 Brown Whelen and the 411 Hawk are only slight modifications of the original 400 and their cases are all very close in capacity. I have used data from all three interchangeably. I will admit that I don't load as hot as Zeglin does with his 411 Hawk data, more for my shoulder than anything else.

You can expect 2150 fps from 400 grain bullets, 2300 from 350grain and 2400 from 300 grain bullets. The powder of choice for the 400 is H4895. No other powder has equaled it in performance. IMR 3031 has been a good performer with 300 grain bullets but gives too much pressure too quickly with the heavier bullets. Other 400 shooters report good results with H322 and RL10x.

My favorite bullet. The 400 grain Woodleigh round nose with the 350 Swift A Frame a close second. I could really like the North Fork 300 and 360 grain as well. The Barnes TSX shoots well but I am not as fond of X bullets as I am of the more conventional bullets.

Sorry for the long dissertation. As you can see I am quite sold on the 400 Whelen. You will not regret building one.

Mart

Any pics of the case, bullets, and a loaded round?

I have a couple articles and load data for the 400 whelen and have always wondered how it fared in the real world.

Here's a couple of links to threads about the 400. They should answer a lot of questions.

400 Whelen

more 400

400 update

I recalled your early posts but forgot about them - thanks for posting!

Thanks Mart, you keep the 400 Whelen pretty high on my want list.

Come on in. The water's fine. Once you join our elite group of 400 Whelen shooters you will have arrived as a shooter, reloader and rifle loony. Kind of rifle world's version of the most interesting man. "I don't always shoot rifles, but when I do I shoot a 400 Whelen."

Mart

Mart,

Have you done any research with either of the CEB Safari Solids, by chance? CEB Safari Solids - 350 gr. and 400 gr. May not have much use in AK but would be an option for those hunting heavy game in Africa.

I've followed your project and the crazy thread over on Accurate Reloading and have become quite interested in a 400 something. Looked at doing a 400 H&H and then wild-catting the 8x68S case but too many head-aches with both. The Whelen looks more and more appealing.

Thanks for all of your insights.

Mart,
Do you know if the 400 has ever been necked up to 416? Does enough shoulder remain? Just wondering if bullet availability is worth it.
What is cost of C H dies?

From everything I've read the CEB solids are awesome bullets. I haven't tried any myself. It's easy to get some serious bank tied up in test loads with a 400 Whelen. I've no doubt they would perform well but I managed to come across a few Barnes Super Solids so am prepared for my post lottery Africa trip. I would take some of the Woodleigh 400 grain RN and FMJ's if I made an Africa trip. Classic bullets for a classic rifle.

The fellows on that AR 400 Whelen thread are a great bunch. I've enjoyed sharing with them. They get way more into the technical side of cartridge development and performance than me. I don't get as excited about the in depth technical information as some of them. I understand it, I just don't get into it much. They have some interesting variations on the 400 Whelen on that thread but at the end of the day I don't see any of them doing anything in the field that the original won't do. But that's what keeps it interesting for folks I guess.

I doubt you'll ever regret building a 400 Whelen. Most fun I've ever had with a rifle project.

Mart

Mart, without Col. Townsend Whelen's supply of 30-06 Springfield basic brass, how did you decide to expand your 30-06 cases the first time out of the box?

With my wildcat 416, I've worked up to 2350 fps, with a 400 gr. mono metal bullet. I've gotten some setbacks, up here, with the 410 Gr. Woodleigh solids.

My current projects are with using a wildcatted 300 RCM case, and my own severe case taper, along with 26 degree shoulders. With this wildcat brood's 0.495" shoulders, I can go all the way up to the 44 caliber. But as we suggested some time back, a really short light rifle isn't the way to go, here. But this is another way to get a cartridge with the 30-06 Imp.'s capacity, plus a workable shoulder, at the 40 + calibers.

The problem as I see it with a .416 x 06, aside from the shoulder's head spacing, is that the Speer 350 gr. Mag. Tip reaches maximum penetration by being loaded "down" to 2400 fps. This is above what your data indicates, is possible, with the 400 or 416? Whelens.

For that other poster, a 375 Ruger is close to the Schuler, and it will reform in a F.L. sizing die to a 40, or .416 wildcat case, in one go. Mine has a half inch long neck, ala the old 416 Rigby and it forms in one plunge through my Press. This is a lot less work than case forming them down from 375 Ruger Basic Brass.

thanks for the info that was exactly the information (especially those pictures) that I was looking for. Could you tell me more about your rifle?

Thanks for the info, now I gotta have one!

A friend had it built because we often do builds with obscure rounds. He hunted it several times and never saw anything with it. First time I took it out, three pigs. So, by default, its my pig gun.

He had better luck with a 25/06 we built from Sako parts.

The gun is a 700 LA ADL with a 22" #5 Pac-Nor .411 groove at 22".
Talley steel rings, McMillan Remington Hunter stock
It will run .410 bullets up to 400grs. nicely.

It started out life in a McMillan HTG:


My friend wanted a more "non-drab" apprearance.


It will turn a Barnes 41 Mag XPB into a quarter...


The Hornady 300gr. SP's and FP's seem like they'd really do some damage, but I've had no issues doing anything with the X and TSX. Exits and giant blood trails that are never long ( I think the record is about 10 yards).

I form cases with a Redding .416 tapered expander in a std. '06 family die with the expander removed, the plug and rod screwed all the way down, then screwing on the .416 expander and pulling the works half way into the die body for case support.

I use 35 Whelen cases because 30/06's will be way short and runout can get out of control.

Once the case is expanded, it goes into the CH 400 Whelen FL die until the case closes snug in the chamber. The CH "expander" is just a waste of metal.

Now fireform; don't be afraid to use full house loads or even hunt with them. I use 375 LBT .416 cast bullets atop 56grs of RL-15 or Varget or even 4064.

The standard TSX load is 65.5 grs of RL-15 which clock at 2,475-85.

The chamber/die is set up so well I don't use an expander ball at all, unless of course a case is dinged badly.
Its just shoot, run through the FL, prime, powder and seat bullet.

My original cases were made with LC Match brass, expanded with Cream Of Wheat over a light charge of Bullseye. I used a 458 Winchester decapping die and a 41 magnum die to size the neck, using a stop collar on the ram to control how far into the die the case was allowed to go. It worked well for my initial load development. Once my dies arrived I started using the Quality Cartridge brass and Norma 30-06 cylindrical for my loads. I have enough of each to last a long time. I also have a set of expander dies from 30-35 and 35-416 that I can use to make 375 or 400 Whelen cases. Because I have a 35 Whelen I didn't want to use that brass for anything else.

Indy, I guess I am missing the point on your comment on the 416 350 grain Speer. I tried those resized to .411 but it was far more trouble than it was worth to me. The bullets available for the 400 Whelen are designed to run in the velocity range it is capable of so I don't see any benefit to using the Speers. I don't think going out to 416 on the 06 case gains anything over the 400 Whelen. It can be done but the bullets are designed for higher velocities than the 400 is capable of delivering. A hunter would be well served with the 350 grain Hawk or Swift or the 360 grain North Fork in the 400.

As far as the "shoulder's head spacing problems" you mentioned, they really don't exist. Even if the case is opened up to .416. I think Petrov did an outstanding job of dispelling that myth. Despite numerous efforts to do so, I have not been able to recreate any of the "shoulder head space problems" that are alleged to exist with this cartridge. I'm 1300 rounds into the testing so far and no misfires. Even over annealing the shoulder and placing it in front of the extractor in an attempt to push the shoulder back, has failed to cause a misfire or move the shoulder.

When we compare the case mouth of a 9mm or 45 ACP, which establishes the head space for those rounds, we see the shoulder on the 400 Whelen as gargantuan. And we expect those rounds to function flawlessly, even at high cyclic rates.

I applaud your interest in developing new wildcat cartridges but my interest is to keep alive the good Colonel's grand wildcat. I've really no desire to alter it or to improve on it. The Colonel did all the heavy lifting for me. All I need to do is go out and shoot it.

Mart, you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant that in larger cartridges, the Speer 350 Mag Tips are "loaded down" to 2400 fps. to get their maximum penetration. These are made more for N. America, than for Africa. I don't think you can goose up a 400 or 416 Whelen to reach this maximum penetration level. (read, straight through penetration in big game)

As far as resuscitating one of these old Whelen designs, you should remember that there are many reloading die lash ups from Pre WWII years, still out there. These were where those head spacing problems originated. I've seen some really crude 400 Whelen dies which were used in a vise, and not in any threaded Press.

You should be O.K. with any bullets made for the 405 Winchester, but I was noting that the Speer 350 gr. Mag Tips, should have at least a 2400 fps. muzzle velocity. If you remember, I also tried to dissuade you from squeezing them down to your caliber. Their lead cores can come loose from the jackets, merely by shooting them into stumps, used as target backstops.

The old Doctor with the 400 Whelen dies had been the Idaho State Pistol Champ for nearly ten years, and he really knew his stuff. He told me that the best way to deal with the 400 Whelen in the old days was to head space it on its case mouth. In those days, a roll crimp was high tech. So you lost the ability to properly crimp your bullets.

But since you say that you do have cylindrical brass basic cases, you are good to go, either way. Note the poster above, and please understand that not everyone will find this cylindrical Basic brass to work over. Many will still have to expand the necks of factory fired cases.

These forum posts are searchable over the net, and will still be hanging around in twenty years or so. The presently available cylindrical brass may not be. Col. Whelen ran an Army arsenal, and he simply special ordered some, for himself. It wasn't available anywhere else in the U.S. markets, back in those days. Ergo, that old Doc was giving me excellent advice.

BTW, he was using his 400 Whelen sizing die to swage dead soft Lyman 45 cal. "acorn nosed",lead slugs, through it, for use in a 1855 or so, vintage Ohio Valley cap lock rifle which he sold to me. It was a cast 200 gr. revolver bullet, and I've never seen another one of those molds since.

But that antique 400 Whelen sizing die was a press in, and then drive back out proposition. He must have liked it, since it didn't come with the muzzle loader. I had to order another odd ball mold from Dixie Gunworks to even cast round balls for it.

edit: check out the running thread for the 458 with the sister bullet to the Speer 416 cal. 350 Mag Tip. Same arguments! They both need to plough straight through the game animal.

We have piles of basic brass, with the 400 Whelen headstamp.

The issue I have with it is that its too large to function near the base and needs to be turned down; strike one

It also needs trimmed, strike two.

Then I had to neck turn....when all I had to do in the end was run a 35 case into a 416 tapered expander and size.

If using 35 cases and don't want any mix-ups, lathe or file off the headstamp markings. It will take less time than the basic case, even if you don't have any issues like I have.

HawkI, If your brass has been head stamped, its beyond being basic. "Partially Formed" may be a better description. Do you have, or know where, I can buy some of these, in decent quantities?

These sound like they will get around most of the 400 Whelen's "Legacy" problems. That old Pistolero Doc, Dr. William Williams, told me some forty years ago, that the case mouth head spaced 400 Whelens worked, while the shoulder head spaced ones caused "them" a lot of problems. Albeit, this was with the primitive reloading tools, they were using, during the Great Depression. I can have Dave Kiff at PT&G make me up a custom finish reamer and head space GO gauge, specifically, for these over sized cases of yours.

I'm hanging onto one of my four test bed M-98 actions, with its original bolt face. The other three have been opened up to the H&H bolt face pattern. The next run of the Hornady 300 RCM virgin cases, I'm playing with, may not be available until next year. I'm supposed to check back in, with them about the middle of October, to see when they will be back on the production schedule.

Your 400 Whelen cases, partially formed or whatever, might fill this Winter's gap. But 40 x 300 RCM, or 400 x 06, the recoil is the determining factor with any rifle I want to carry around in the mountains, as I'm now pushing 70.

Personally, I just wish someone would make up 30-06 cases with belts standing proud over standard heads and extraction rims. Weatherby did this with his 416 Wea. Magnum. You can turn off these belts, in a lathe, and then you can form the original 416 Rigby case, including its original extraction rim.

Then, with this belted 30-06, you would have good head spacing on everything up to the 44 caliber (.430"). The closest thing I've come up with, is my 44 Marsh (44 x 356BB), in a semi rimmed configuration. In my M-94 Winchester carbine, putting in a good roll crimp, becomes really important.

And that's the problem with head spacing any 400 Whelen on its case mouth, IMHO. You're missing out on those good roll crimps.

I realize your reply was directed at Hawk but I will toss in what I know about the 400 Whelen stamped cases. Actually the Quality Cartridge brass, head stamped 400 Whelen, is simply cylindrical 30-06 brass with the 400 Whelen head stamp. No partial forming. It requires only a pass though the FL sizing die to create the neck and shoulder.