Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Hunting season workouts - strength vs cardio?

Been following the Fitness thread and decided to start my own on a topical area instead of posting on the other thread even though they are somewhat related.

I'm 51 and have lifted since my late teens. Lets just say I didn't start out as Arnold junior. I was fairly scrawny but discovered weights and protein while in college and never looked back. As such cardio has always been a weakness I never cared to work on beyond normal fitness. Once I started seriously elk hunting about 10-12 years ago, I discovered that one needs a good deal of cardio to wander long distances in the Rocky's at high elevation. I started doing much more cardio and am able to wander at will. I also started killing a few elk way back in which requires another level of fitness to get them out. Horses are wonderful but are not always available. Carrying elk quarters 2-3-4 miles plain sucks.

Long winded introduction to the topic at hand - what is the proper mix of cardio and strength training? You need both if you plan on Rocky mtn elk hunting and being successful. Or more cash than I care to lay out for an outfitted hunt. I'm not much on outfitted hunts because A. I like doing things on my own, B. I'm too cheap.

This year I've spent more time and effort doing cardio. Hell I even went on a low carb diet just for giggles to see what would happen. The only blood issue to address is my ratio between LDL/HDL cholesterol. Total levels are low but I have a tad too low HDL, ratio is still in the 'normal' range but I'm trying to raise it. My doctor said try a low carb diet - 100 grams total/day. So I tried it about 7-8 weeks ago as well.

Discovered a couple things. First, you will lose weight on a low carb diet, mainly because anything with any flavor also has carbs. Everything sucks so you eat less of it trying to get your body to switch from utilizing carbs to using fat as its main energy molecule. It seems to work. I lost 12-14 pounds without really wanting or needing to. I do have more than 1 ab now.

Second, low carb diets kill strength training. I've always been fairly strong and can hold my own in % body weight lifted in the various barbell exercises. I can multi rep 250 in squat and bench, 135 seated military, etc. Enter low carb diet. Its been a struggle to keep my normal weights, sets, reps. In fact, I started to go backwards.

So I'm pondering what is the correct ratio of strength training to cardio. I currently do 2 days full body strength training using 2-3 working sets for the main body parts, 1-2 sets for smaller muscle groups. I also jog 3 miles in 30 minutes twice per week. I hike 7-10 miles one day on the weekend. I find that doing cardio or strength training on back to back days is very difficult to maintain. I'm currently letting my body tell me when to workout. Every other day with 1 back-back day per week seems to be working. Plus my weekend hike. My strength is recovering and my cardio is staying consistent.

What are your thoughts as far as a mix of cardio to strength training?

Just join a Crossfit gym if that is an option. Once you nail the basics of that down, you'll "own" it for the rest of your life. It truly is a "physical education".

Having said that, I am of the opinion that a backpack hunter is most likely better served by a program that incorporates "periodization".

Stew Smith (How to Train like a Navy SEAL) gets folks in condition for a living, and his program is to mostly lift starting around the first of the year, using template that looks a lot like Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength". Most folks plateau on that program in a couple months, try to maintain that strength level and start doing Crossfit and some runs. Learn POSE/barefoot running form. Get the form nailed down, then start doing 400/800m repeats. The form is easier to learn if you start running fast first. Taper the Crossfit back and ramp up the distance on the runs up until hunting season. You are trying to maintain strength/GPP while ramping up cardiorespiratory endurance.

Do what you can when you aren't hunting. First of the year, start over. Also, you can't outrun/lift schidt for food. Paleo/Zone is optimal, the Zone Diet is a non-negotiable. Learn and implement it.

I'd wager a tidy sum that Crossfit's "neuroendocrine response" will raise your HDL at least ten points.

The crossfit, wt. training, running etc is necessary for both conditioning, strength and injury prevention, but some of your training needs to be what you do when you hunt and that means packing heavy loads. So start increasing the wt. of your pack load during your weekend hikes.

Yeah, I forgot to add that towards the end of summer start swapping runs for ruck marches. The US Army Rangers used to do one longish ruck march each week, they decided that was enough with their other PT. Guys getting ready for SFAS typically ruck march 3-days/wk. Definetely no more than that. Two middle distance and maybe one longish ruck each week, max.

Sounds like you have a pretty good program, more than what 90% of people do. 2-3 cardio sessions a week is about right IMO, at least it works for me. A few different trainers have advised me to mix in high intensity intervals and I believe they help. According to the trainers, intervals are much better for you than a steady pace. The same trainers have all advised me to focus more on core muscles than I have been, and that's been great advice too. Along with different stretches to stay loose.

Edited to add: What I've read about high-intensity intervals says they boost cardio faster than a steady pace. My personal theory is, they also train your muscles to get rid of lactic acid quickly, because you're cycling in and out of the anaerobic zone.

An Ak guide I had could really move in the mountains while carrying a load. Little guy like me, but obviously younger and an Army Ranger in a previous life. Tough he was. I asked him if he encountered any hunters that could hang with him and he said only one and he was a marathon runner. FWIW

He eventually blew out a knee from numerous strenuous hunts with a heavy pack.

Some of the workouts guys post here are knee intensive. I'm not one to tell another what kind of workout they should be doing, but If I was younger and had what hopefully would be years of hunts ahead of me, I would be looking at workouts that didn't maximally stress the knees or shoulder joints. Workouts, cardio and a diet that tended towards developing a leaner body structure. More towards reps vs max when it came to the weights.

Everyone has given you good advice. One more thing is don't be afraid to eat some "bad" carbs right after your workout. Bad meaning sweet potatoes or steel cut oats or something like that. Also you didn't say how much fat you are eating but for me, I eat 3-4 times the amount of an "average" Zoner. If you workout hard you need adequate fat and carbs for recovery. I think that may be why are noticing a strength loss. Sounds like you have a good handle on things but just need to tweak it.

Read an article on "Fat is Fuel" the other day. Some points�.

"Fat as Fuel" from a GNC article by Jeff S.Volek, PHD

No GNC products were advertised in the article. Which eliminates Corporate bias.


"Low carb and higher fat diets will induce an acceleration of ketone production. When this occurs the body will adapt to using fats as fuel."

"Fats are more plentiful. The body has around 500-2500 Kcal of carbs which are enough to last one day. While the body has approx around 40,000 kcal of fat. However, it can't be used unless they have been on low carbs for a couple of weeks."

"Eating carbs locks and athlete into a dependence on carbs until the body adapts to burning fat for fuel."

" Fat contains twice a many Kcal than carbs to be used for energy"

"Burning fat in place of carbs generates less lactic acid."

"Burning fat will result in the loss of body fat which means a greater percentage of muscle mass and an improved power-to-weight ratio."

"A low carb diet has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity."

Something to think about and perhaps some of the old rules are being re-evaluated.

Post workout is the one time I was advised to go ahead and have sugary drinks or snacks, along with 40 grams of whey protein. The sugar goes directly into the muscles and helps with recovery, as does the protein, and a little glutamine. I mix up a shake with OJ, whey protein, and glutamine for post workout.

Everyone has their own definition of "bad" carbs, but I don't consider sweet potatoes to be in that category, or whole oats for that matter. Unless you're cutting weight and fat for some sort of competition.

Another article and the roll of fats for endurance athletes. Portions of it complement the GNC article.

http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/fats-in-the-endurance-world/

The Zone Rx for fat is 30% of calories from healthy fats. You consume 90-120% of your calories from fats? Please enlighten me.

Thanks for all the links and thoughts.

A couple of observations on my end. I increased the percentage of both fat and protein in my diet. I also bumped up the carbs a bit - I eat 100-150 grams per day. I quit eating simple carbs and starches a long time ago - white bread/pasta, sugar drinks, candy, sweets, etc. I still can't resist my wife's apple pie with vanilla ice cream............

I think the combination of increasing the ratio of fat/protein, a few extra carbs, and allowing recovery between workouts is working better at keeping strength and endurance. When I was in my 20's and 30's, I used to work out 5-6 days a week. At 51, can't do it - I need more recovery time.

In a couple of weeks, I'll switch to 2 longish hikes with more weight over the jogs. I have a trail close to my house that I call my workout hike. It is shade over 3 miles and climbs 1700 feet, mostly over the last 1.5 miles. My goal is always to do it without stopping - I'm only successful about 50% of the time. It is tough with a pack on. This hike simulates most of my elk hunts. I usually hunt 2-3 miles off the road and end up climbing 10-1500 vertical feet. When hunting I plan on at least 2 hours to do a hike like that. Training I do my training hike in less than 1.5 hrs.

I leave for elk camp in 8 weeks. Can't wait............

I've seen most of these facts before and was confirmed by my doctor. He's a great doc and took the time to explain the fat vs carb metabolic process. I did a bit of follow on the interweb and it makes sense. Thanks for doing a good summary and posting.

I'm far from the model of fitness, but one thing I think is going to help me this fall is that often my "cardio" is with weights! It's amazing how out of breath and high the heart rate can get in a short amount of time doing things like thrusters or wall balls. Where I think that is going to help me is I can recover much faster than I could before. I'm hoping that helps me this fall.

Ditto on the above. I'm not into "workouts" counting carbs, protein, etc etc. and if I had to spend time in a gym to be fit to hunt I'd put a bullet in my head and quit hunting...in that order.
Having said that, different strokes for different folks applies. The only advice I feel qualified to give is in the quote above.
You pound those joints you WILL LIKELY pay for it sometime after age 50, I don't care what kind of "shape" you're in.

Take care of your joints, you have no spares.

True, without a doubt. I always feel better after I take a couple days off, can lift more, more reps, etc.

I've gone to a three-day cycle with cardio one day, lower body/core the next, then upper body. Gives the muscles a chance to recover between workouts.

Not going to a gym (your garage or someone else's gym) isn't "taking care of your joints". That is called "neglect".

"The greatest danger from Crossfit movements, is from not doing them." Greg Glassman

This. Moving heavy stuff, with a high heart rate, ain't what most folks do.

I do light upper body to keep my arms, shoulders, and chest strong, but I really focus on legs. I'm a bigger guy, and my legs get tired very quickly with anything resembling an incline.

I don't do many dead lifts with more then 225#, as every time I do I slip my hip out of place and can hardly walk for several days. That usually happens with weight over 315#, but happened last week with 275... I'm starting to get my mobility back.

I also don't focus on max weight on any lift. I focus on a weight that challenges me, but that I can do 10 times for 3 sets.

For example...

Bench, Ill do sets of 215, 220 and 235.

Squat, 245, 255, 275 (usually 10, 8 , 6 on squat)

Military press (bad shoulders, so really light) 95, 105, 110.

That main component which, I am really bad about exercising is the core. Leg lifts, sit ups, butterfly kicks etc.

I do like to do at least some cardio every day. Only about 10 minutes on leg days, 20 minutes on upper body days, and about once a week I will do strictly cardio. On those days, I usually run for 15 minutes, bike for 15 minutes, and do either the stair stepper or elliptical for 10 minutes.

Take a knee, on the zone a fat block is 3-4 almonds for example, so 4 blocks would be 12-16 almonds. I will eat at least double that amount of almonds plus olive oil my meat is cooked plus the fat in the meat (if its red meat) plus some grass fed butter on say a sweet potatoes. So to me that is at least 3-4 times the fat blocks they reccomend is it not?