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Hope you guys can help me out. I hear about rounds like the 50-110 being so powerful and how the 45/70 was such a great bison round in days back. if you were to take a modern muzzle loader in 45 cal and load it with 70 grains of powder or a 50 caliber and load it with 110 grains it wouldn't be considered anything more than moderate and certainly not a great bison round. Am I missing something?

Black powder cartridges of the second half of the 19th century could only produce more "power" by using large bore sizes and heavy bullets, since there was a limit of 1400 fps or so on velocities that could be produced by BP.

Most people do not load their modern muzzle loaders with the same kind of projectiles used by BP cartridges Back in the Day. Today's muzzle loader bullets are usually less than full bore size due to being contained in a sabot, and are basically nothing more than glorified pistol bullets with weights fairly light for their caliber.

Of course, these loads are very effective for the type of hunting we do today and many of today's bullet designs perform out of proportion to their weight by traditional standards, and modern BP substitutes give velocities quite a bit higher than BP can produce.

BP cartridges of 125 years ago used full bore size lead bullets in true rifle weight. The .50/70 used a 450 gr. bullet and the .45/70 used 400 to 500 gr. bullets. These bullets at BP velocities gave excellent penetration on large game such as bison .

If you loaded your .45 caliber modern muzzle loader with a heavy lead bullet such as a No Excuses 460 gr. with 70 grs. of FFG BP, you would have the equivalent of an original .45/70 load and it would work just as well on bison today as a Trapdoor Springfield would have in 1876.

Such a load would be considered "moderate" today, compared to, say, a .375 H&H by most hunters, but the bison that was hit with it would still be just as impressed in 2014 as it would have been in the 1870's.

Yes, standard muzzleloaders dont have the accuracy and ranging capabilities [sights] of the Sharps rifles.

Some time ago I saw a reproduction of a Winchester cartridge list from 1910 or thereabouts. The BP 50-140 was listed, as well as the .30-06. Those cartridges tied for highest ME. For perspective, remember the 1910 .30-06 was about equal to the modern .300 Savage.

Those rifles will kill bison. As a matter of fact, Howard Hill killed a bull from horseback with a broadhead, as did a lot of other people 100+ years before him. My ancestors here in Missouri exterminated them with muzzle loaders before BPCR were invented. But the BPCR are wimpy compared to "modern" weaponry like the .375 H&H.

The editor of Rifle took a lever-action 50-140 with BP loads to Africa a few years ago, and killed a cape buffalo with it. He chased the poor thing around for an hour, shooting it something like 14 times before it died. His buddy, who also writes for Rifle, took a .45-70 with hot smokeless loads and did a whole lot better, so much so that he didn't use the .375 he had along for insurance.

When we shoot BP, we are stepping back to the past. Not so far back as the atal-atal hunters or even the archers, but back.

Wow, like to see that lever action .50-140!

Me, too!

As to the killing power of the .45-70, just ask sharpsguy. He "only" made three trips to Africa, killing most of his critters with it using cast lead bullets.

Ross Seyfried had a thing or two to say about the .45-70's killing power, too.

Ed

Wimpy?

That's funny stuff.

Well I have a lever action 50-140,didn't know there were any other kind. It doesn't have a tubular magazine though, your left hand with 3 cartridges,one between each finger works well, although you usually don't need to shoot more than once at something to kill it. Come to think of it I knew a guy who had a highly modified roller in 50-140, he had to deep seat his greasers so far to chamber them I don't think he could get more than 130 grs in them, regular whiner outfit for sure. I do know one guy who had his C Sharps rebarreled to a 1 in 22 twist 30" long with a 14# bull barrel so he could patch to bore dia a 700 gr paper patch bullet. Haven't heard from him in a while as he was having health problems and isn't shooting much. Somebody clue me in here, what other kind of rifle than a lever action would you expect to find chambered in 50-140? Magnum Man

Hmmmmm, a falling block action? I suppose one could count a break open action in .500 Nitro Express (3 1/4") too.

500 BPE is not the same as a 50-140 or 50 3.25" different twists and bullet weights. My Shiloh is a lever actioned falling block if you don't lower the lever the block don't move just like a Winchester. MM

I believe the lever gun referred to above was a 50-110, Winchester 1886. Magnum Man, I know the man you ate referring to with the c. Sharps with his new barrel. His health has worsened and we haven't shot that rifle in over a year. We have been shooting his 45-70, alongside my 45-110.

My point being a break open uses a lever also and it's not considered a lever action. I'm not arguing with you, you can call your Shiloh whatever you want. Most people use the encyclopedic description of "lever action" and as such I've never seen one in .50-140. Also, I'd hate to meet an animal that could absorb 14 hits from a correctly loaded .50-140!

Wikipedia: "Lever-action is a type of firearm action which uses a lever located around the trigger guard area (often including the trigger guard itself) to load fresh cartridges into the chamber of the barrel when the lever is worked. While the term lever-action generally implies a repeating firearm, it is also sometimes (and incorrectly) applied to a variety of single-shot, or falling-block actions that use a lever for cycling, such as the Martini-Henry..."

Nope. A breakopen is NOT a lever action. A Sharps IS a lever action, just not a repeating rifle. Wiki is fulla schhitt. ANY firearm that requires a lever to actuate the action is a lever action. The Spencer was another incarnation of same.

With good bullets, the big calibers penetrate very deeply, and the holes are often 2x bullet diameter. You may not get an instant kill unless the CNS is hit, but they are reliable killers, nonetheless. And there are plenty of cases of buffalo absorbing multiple hits from modern rifles, too.

Thanks Manny, haven't heard from Jake in awhile and been wondering and about him, you too for that matter. will try to send him an e-mail. enjoyed shooting breeze with him.

T Mitch, I had almost forgot about those old lever operated Ithaca single shots kinda remind me of a pile a dog turds,you see it,recognize it, and walk around it. Nevermind handling it.MM

Best example I've seen of 45-70 power. Fired from a Marlin but at BPCR velocity.

20+ water jugs

Modern explosive rounds do about 3 to 5.

That's certainly a ballzy statement makes me wonder what brand of kool Aid you're drinking?