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Had a 3 position Gentry put on my Whitworth and like it and the Timney trigger a lot. 375 H&H that shoots the Barnes X 270 very well.

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Originally Posted by cdhunt
WHITWORTH'S are far and away BETTER than any Winchester that is shootable.


How so?


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Originally Posted by dennisinaz
Originally Posted by cdhunt
WHITWORTH'S are far and away BETTER than any Winchester that is shootable.


How so?


The nicer ones with Birmingham proof marks have nice finish two position safety and have "lively" feel to them.

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Originally Posted by dennisinaz
Originally Posted by cdhunt
WHITWORTH'S are far and away BETTER than any Winchester that is shootable.


How so?


Dennis,

Remember the one my son James had at Quemado in 06? Think y'all were shooting it up on the range. Well it arrived back yesterday from JES and now it's a .35 Whelen. Suppose we'll be shooting it this weekend!


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Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

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Originally Posted by dennisinaz
Originally Posted by cdhunt
WHITWORTH'S are far and away BETTER than any Winchester that is shootable.


How so?



A Mauser action is superior to a M-70 for one thing.



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Originally Posted by jwp475



A Mauser action is superior to a M-70 for one thing.


Now you've done it!

I have a Mark X in 458 win, its a slick rifle..Need to find a stock for it and do it up right this time..Its busted the last two even with proper bedding, just chitty wood I think.

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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by dennisinaz
Originally Posted by cdhunt
WHITWORTH'S are far and away BETTER than any Winchester that is shootable.


How so?



A Mauser action is superior to a M-70 for one thing.


Yes in some ways I think it is.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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This subject just makes me sad to contemplate. I traded away a Whitworth, and yes it was a fine rifle.

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I'm no connoisseur of fine CRF rifles but I have handled and shot a lot of Model 70s and about one third as many various Mausers. All the stuff being brought up is purely subjective.

I really want to know are we being snobish here or is there something to it? My Winchesters feed good, look good, shoot good- what am I missing? I looked for a perfect 375 or 458 Mauser and didn't find one but I did find a really nice model 70 and I want to know what I am missing out on not holding out for a Browning or a Whitworth?


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The Win M-70 is closer copy of the Springfield than a Mauser. The are several cost cutting changes. In the case of a catastrophic case failure the M-70 will send gasses into the shooters face, the Mauser will not. The M-70 action does not have a full set of barrel threads, the Mauser does have a full set of barrel threads. The Mauser bolt acts as a safety lug the M-70s does not. Just to name a few advantages of the Mauser action.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Originally Posted by Fireball2
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

that is one coool looking rifle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by dennisinaz
I'm no connoisseur of fine CRF rifles but I have handled and shot a lot of Model 70s and about one third as many various Mausers. All the stuff being brought up is purely subjective.

I really want to know are we being snobish here or is there something to it? My Winchesters feed good, look good, shoot good- what am I missing? I looked for a perfect 375 or 458 Mauser and didn't find one but I did find a really nice model 70 and I want to know what I am missing out on not holding out for a Browning or a Whitworth?



dennis I all take a stab at this even though I won't hit them all since I am no expert.....I am not going to knock a M70 because pretty much that's all I have hunted with for quite a few years.

There are some minor differences, but to Mauser mavens they all add up to making them "better".

- Extractor: Its a bit more robust because the extractor is supported by a "hook" under the extractor that fits into a circular recess at the head of the bolt. This "hook" grabs more tenaciously the harder you pull on the bolt and in theory makes it more difficult for the extractor to slip over the case rim and leave it in the chamber during extraction.

OTOH the M70 extractor depends on the spring tension of the extractor itself to exert tension and hold the case rim. In theory it could (might?) slip over the case rim in the event of a severely stuck case.....sometimes....maybe.The M70 extractor also depends on that same spring tension to properly grip the case during feeding and align it for passage into the chamber. This is why a MIM extractor on a M70 is such a disaster waiting to happen on the M7 Classic;it will bend and hold a set,even break, but does not behave like a spring steel extractor. They should be replaced every time.

Ejector: The M70 depends on a a spring actuated bladed ejector that slides up out of a recess in the bottom of the bolt raceway. It it gets gritty down there the spring may not function well enough to "time" the ejector rising up as the bolt is operated in rapid fire and the case will not eject. This rarely happens,but can if the rifle is poorly maintained and it takes a lot of neglect but it can happen.

OTOH, the Mauser ejector cams off the bolt release(correct description?),does not depend on a small spring, and is a bit more robust in operation.

Breach: The slick feeding for which the M70 is noted, is due in part to the coned breach. Downside is that more of the case is unsupported by the chamber. The Mauser breach supports more of the case in the chamber(in fact more than a Rem 700, too).

Gas: The mauser is better in the case of a burst case or some other mishap. Gas is diverted down the left lug raceway,and in military actions the cut out in the left raceway provides an opening for diversion. The bolt shroud has a gas shield, absent on a pre 64 M70 and most Classics, but newer SC M70's,and some very late Classics, have a shield.

Trigger: The original Mauser trigger is about bomb proof. I don't like enclosed after market triggers fitted to Mausers. In a dangerous game rifle, the Mauser trigger requires a smaller inlet in the trigger mortice...helpful with heavy recoiling rifles to minimize stock splitting I hear. Anyway if I had a Mauser I'd get a M70-style trigger for it.

Feeding is true CRF provided the action is modified to the cartridge. Use a case too short,or otherwise not suited and the CRF thing sort of goes out the window IMHO. On some Mausers there is a protrusion on the head of the bolt that serves as a guide for the cartridge to be carried under the extractor and into the chamber and helps with alignment.

Safeties with scope....same/same. There are other differences but too detailed. You need a book.

The sloppy bolt travel is a result of loose tolerances so that bolt operation is easier and more certain if it gets dirty or icey.

The action was designed as a battle rifle for doomsday scenarios,like a bomb shelter.Conditions have to be pretty bad before advantages show up and few sporting rifles are afield for months at a time under bad tropical or other nasty, dirty conditions. So most don't see, or need, the advantages, but for those who do, they can make a difference.


That's all I can think of. Will leave the rest to the experts.

Rant over. smile




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Bob,

About the only other thing you could have mentioned is the one-piece magazine/floorplate assembly in the Mauser, which is theoretically more fool-proof, especially if it's the military style (which has been used on some sporter 98's) which cannot fly open at an inopportune moment.


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John yes...I guess you could write a book,and some have. I tried to keep it short. smile

Yesterday I was at the LGS and tried to open the floor plate on a JC Higgins/FN Mauser 30/06....had to use a jackknife to hold that button in so I could open it. I thought, you'd never see a bombs away with that outfit!




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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bobinNH did a great job of detailing the technical differences in the 98 & 70 actions. Like him, I've used 70s almost exclusively for many years. However, one might conclude that the 70s are lacking when it comes to hard use in rough conditions. Looking at a few (all pre-64s) that were used in about as rough of hunting environments as you might find for many, many years and and they look pretty impressive when it comes to reliability.

Here are a few that come to mind. Wally Johnson, the Ivory Hunter and PH for many, many years, used a pre-war (1938) .375 as his primary rifle for many, many years, mostly in Mozambique. I've spoken to his son Walt many times over the past couple years about the rifle and the conditions it was used in and Walt never recalls a hitch in its operation, even in the terrible dirt and dust is was used in. He repeatedly would say to me "they were good rifles." (the pre-64s)

Then there was Morris Talifson and Bill Pinnell, the brown bear men on Kodiak Island. They bought their .375s in 1949 and 1950 and used them until they retired in the 90s. I hunted Kodiak this fall and it is some rough country. I've talked to a good number of the men who worked for them over the years, including some who know guns, and again, they never remembered a single hitch in those conditions. The close-up pictures of those 2 rifles show incredibly worn and beat up rifles.

The same can be said of Hal Waugh, another of Alaska's great brown bear guides. His old 70, originally a .300 H&H was rebarrelled to .375 Weatherby. Again, sterling performance for many, many years in really rough environment.

Then I spoke to Middleton Tompkins, the great big bore target shooter who won 6 national titles, all using old 70 actioned rifles. I asked him how many rounds he put thru some of those actions. He said he didn't really know for sure, but thought it could be as many as 50,000. What about parts breakage: 1 extractor collar. That's it. While target shooting isn't in rough conditions, thats a lot of shooting for one action.

My son works for one of Alaska's most well known brown bear outfitters. While in Kodiak this fall, I met and spoke at length with one of the outfitter's guides. This man has hunted a lot, including Africa. His rifle of choice: a M70. We talked recently about action design and despite being a model 70 man, I suggested that the 98 is quite the action. He told me what many experienced users feel, which is that the smooth slickness of the 70 is why he prefers them over the 98 when the heat is on.

So my point is, while technically speaking, the 98 MIGHT have some very slight advantage in a couple of action details, experience with the old 70s over a lot of years says that they have a remarkable record of reliability. No wonder so many users are so fond of them.

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Big Nan .. 78 gr of ...

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I had Dave Gentry install a 3-position on one of my Mark X rifles and tune the trigger before he died. Great work. I think his son is doing it now.

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akrange: I had a chance to handle "big nan" a few years ago. Really neat rifle that is the real deal. Its in the Brown Bear Gun Shop and Museum in Kenai, Alaska.

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Originally Posted by ruffedgrouse
akrange: I had a chance to handle "big nan" a few years ago. Really neat rifle that is the real deal. Its in the Brown Bear Gun Shop and Museum in Kenai, Alaska.


Merry Christmas R....

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I hope you have a blessed Christmas as well akrange. Where in Michigan are you? I'm just outside of Cadillac.


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