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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Absolutely Jeff. On torso size targets I'm faster with irons at 100 yards or so because I don't see as much wobble as I do with a dot. Shrink the target to about 8" and a dot is faster for me. Let me put my 1-6 on about 2.5 and I'll smoke them.

My fastest run with irons was 6.xx. Dot was 7.xx. A buddy had magnification and ran it in just under 5. That's pretty dang fast for five hits at 100.

DJones-On steel each target has to get a hit. If you leave a steel unshot it's a 20 second penalty, which will ruin an entire match, so you've gotta hit them all. But you can shoot as much as you want, the penalty for misses is the time it takes you to shoot again. Which in itself is a big penalty. On an array of five targets, if you're sending more than seven shots you're screwing up. It's not so bad if you call a miss and immediately shoot again. But if you transition to another target and then have to come back to a miss you're screwed.

Everybody thinks it's all "spray and pray". And for the guys at the middle of the pack that's a worthwhile strategy. But if you wanna win there's VERY little room for any error, because the guy ahead of you isn't missing at all.


are you using flip up irons or like the A2 sights? That brake is pretty amazing.


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I am old and slow but the 100 drops more out past 200 with a 3 inch sight height, or so it seems to me.


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I am old and slow ...
welcome to my hell

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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Yep, 1" Battlecomp.


Thought you was going with surefires???


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I am old and slow but the 100 drops more out past 200 with a 3 inch sight height, or so it seems to me.


250 meters not yards will give you less than 7" of drop, 300 meters gets you 12" of drop.
99% of my shooting is under 150 yards until I start banging steel and then I dial anyway. So for out to 200 yards I can hold a little high, up close I can hold about the same.

It really started sinking in when I was trying to put a bullet through a small hole in the brush at 20 yards and then again at 85 yards, do I aim low or high? Like Blue said, you can't be thinking about stuff like that.

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I remain puzzled. Under 100 they don't seem drastically different.


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20 yards requires a high hold, 85 yards requires a low hold.

Using a 100 meter zero, you hold a little high at 20, not so much at 85.

Most think about zeroing a bolt gun with the scope 1.5" over the bore and everyone agrees the higher the scope is mounted the worse the trajectory is gets.

The AR places the scope or irons 2.7" above bore so the old 1" high at 100 mantra gets thrown out the window. You're dealing with almost a 6" top to bottom trajectory on a MPBR at 200 meters.

The 5.56 AR has a window where the bullet never rises above point of aim out to 100 meters, then it of course starts dropping. There is no hold under involved, everything is either hold a little high up close, dead on or high out far. It's just simpler shooting. Though it's not for everyone and I'm not telling anyone they have to use it.

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have y'all considered shooting at bigger targets? just sayin...

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I am considering the AN/PVS Aquila 4X as its rated for 308!


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Originally Posted by djones
have y'all considered shooting at bigger targets? just sayin...

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Not really, but if you have some to spare give me a shout. Can always change my mind. Grins.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I cannot understand what the major difference is? Is two inches high at 100 yards a major issue for the tournament shooting?


Say I'm shooting at a 6" plate, I've got 3" above and below the centerline so say I've got about 2" of wiggle room in any direction and I can still get a hit. If my point of impact is 2" above that center line I'll only have about 1" of wiggle room in any direction for me to still get a hit (because the steel plate is circular there's not as much room for a miss at the top of the target as the middle of the target). 50% less wiggle room.

Back in April we shot a match where we had a series of ten 6" shots at 33 yards. That's an easy shot, until you're racing everybody else to shoot them as fast as you can. They were cardboard targets so you couldn't see / hear if you were hitting or missing. I didn't want to have to hold off and look for the "upper 1/3" or whatever of the cardboard so I actually dialed for a 33 yard zero.

To me, it's just so much faster / easier to hold on the center of the target. Some guys are able to make adjustments on the fly better than me though.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by jimmyp

are you using flip up irons or like the A2 sights? That brake is pretty amazing.


The front is a fixed DD sight on the rail, like this... https://danieldefense.com/components-parts/sights/rail-mounted-fixed-front-sight.html
The rear sight is a fixed Larue, like this... http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-buis-qd-lt-103

The brake does pretty good, but I've also got a VLTOR A5H3 in it and a 15" rail. With the long rail I'm able to get my left hand really far forward to help control the muzzle. By itself the battle comp does well, but not to the extent that the video shows.

It's this AR, but I've switched the light to one of John Burns' at 11 o'clock and moved the front sight all the way forward. But you can see how much further forward I can hold the rail.
[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by Robert_White
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Yep, 1" Battlecomp.


Thought you was going with surefires???


I've got a Surefire on my competition gun. But this is my patrol rifle and the Surefire is just too loud to ever risk shooting it without ear protection.

The SF brake is significantly smoother than the BC.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux


The brake does pretty good, but I've also got a VLTOR A5H3 in it

[Linked Image]


Someday when I have the $$ to put another AR together I need to ask you about the merits and issues (if any) of that buffer system. It is intriguing but I just don't know enough about it to know if its right for me.


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by jimmyp
I cannot understand what the major difference is? Is two inches high at 100 yards a major issue for the tournament shooting?


Say I'm shooting at a 6" plate, I've got 3" above and below the centerline so say I've got about 2" of wiggle room in any direction and I can still get a hit. If my point of impact is 2" above that center line I'll only have about 1" of wiggle room in any direction for me to still get a hit (because the steel plate is circular there's not as much room for a miss at the top of the target as the middle of the target). 50% less wiggle room.

Back in April we shot a match where we had a series of ten 6" shots at 33 yards. That's an easy shot, until you're racing everybody else to shoot them as fast as you can. They were cardboard targets so you couldn't see / hear if you were hitting or missing. I didn't want to have to hold off and look for the "upper 1/3" or whatever of the cardboard so I actually dialed for a 33 yard zero.

To me, it's just so much faster / easier to hold on the center of the target. Some guys are able to make adjustments on the fly better than me though.


There are other ways to shoot irons rather than CM, but for what you are doing, as long as you can see enough of the target, IE its big enough, then CM is the way to run IMHO.

Even if you zero for some other hold, you are still centering the zero for the most error on the wobble side. Lord knows my wobble is never as small as I want it to be, and some days its flat unacceptable....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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FWIW, I handed this AR to a friend today so he could see if he wanted to shoot it at a match next month. He fired one shot and stopped, looked at me and said, "WOW". He's been saving up for a full blown competition rifle but couldn't believe how smooth a well built "regular" AR can be.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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I figured out the answer to the original question all on my very own! All it took was buying a couple of them and I was enlightened!


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In regards to the thread topic, not a damn thing. Unless you just like to spend money on things ready to drive out the door.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I figured out the answer to the original question all on my very own! All it took was buying a couple of them and I was enlightened!


Its the hard way to learn but at least you know for suture reference. grin


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Originally Posted by wareagle700
They are very reliable and fairly accurate guns, thats why they come at a premium. They also sport the KAC name so that tacks on a few hundred extra alone. Are they $1000-$2000 better than everything else? No, I do not think so. LaRue, LMT, JP, and GA Precision all make rifles that are just as or more accurate for less money and all have awesome customer service.


LaRue's 7.62 is $3400 as is JP's..........

KAC's SR-15 E3 version of a LPR with a Kreiger SS barrel is $2400; LaRue's similar gun is $2250, JP's version is $2500ish+, depending on how you like it done up.

Wilson's are comparable for both 7.62's or 5.56's too.

Not really much difference across the top end manufacturer's prices, all with guaranteed performance.

MM


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