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Since this HAS apparently become a �personal preference� voting contest, it might be useful here to revisit the original post:
�I have and use Zeiss Victory HT 10x42 binoculars for hunting. As Swarovski have their anniversary discounts available until end of September I thought I'd try an 8x bin. As I'm now 61 and my max pupil size has probably decreased I'm wondering whether I'd be better off with a smaller, lighter binocular such as the Swarovski EL 8x32 SV. Would like to try an 8x as I've used 10x for years. Distances vary in my hunting areas from fairly close to way out. For those that own or have experience with the EL 8x32 SV, how do you rate them in low light, sharpness, color fidelity etc? As I have to order these from the U.S. sending them back is not an option.�
Please note: �Distances vary in my hunting areas from fairly short to way out.� He did not say really short, but fairly short. He did not say somewhat long, but way out. He�s been using a really good 10x for a long time, and is asking how the Swarovski 8x32 (not an 8x40 or 8x42) will compare. Since I have a Swarovski 8x32 EL and have used it considerably, along with a bunch of other good 8x and 10x binoculars, I posted this answer, very early in this thread:
�While my 8x32 EL is the best 8x32 I've ever looked through, and the sharpness and color rendition are as good as they get, no 32mm objective binocular can quite match a larger objective binocular in low light, even with aging eyes. And no 8x, no matter how good, will perform as well as a 10x of equal quality as in all-around, short-to-long use.�
I have noticed that none of the pro-8x posts since have come close to answering his question. One quoted a military study about how well people could HANDHOLD a binocular and see stuff, though exactly who was in the test group isn�t revealed�and then talks about holding binoculars in one hand. Shrapnel talked about how he�s killed a bunch of elk using an 8x. Well, gee, I used a 6x when grizzly hunting and spotted the one I killed (about the size of a cow elk) over a mile away, but that doesn�t mean 6x is superior to 8x or 10x for all-around use.
Several people stated that they prefer 8x, apparently because they can�t hold 10x steady. They apparently also assume their hunting is exactly like his in New Zealand. But none addressed the original question.
The OP has been using a very fine Zeiss 10x for many years, at least partly because he often glasses �way out.� He apparently hasn�t been having any problems holding a 10x steady, but now wonders if the lighter 8x32 Swarovski will provide the same level of performance, and mentions sharpness and low light.
I explained why I didn�t think it would, including many instances where hunting partners using very good 8x binoculars (some even Swarovski 8x32�s) asked if they could use my 10x so they could see something better, exactly like Ingwe could see the caribou better when he borrowed a partner�s 10x. And they ALL could see whatever they were looking at better with 10x, even without a tripod or any other fancy way to hold the 10x steady.
The entire point of the OP�s question was to get a realistic idea of whether the 8x32 Swarovski would outperform his 10x42 Zeiss Victory HT for his uses. I explained why I didn�t think so, and despite all the pro-8x protests, still don�t.


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Originally Posted by zeissman


Would like to try an 8x as I've used 10x for years. Distances vary in my hunting areas from fairly close to way out. For those that own or have experience with the EL 8x32 SV, how do you rate them in low light, sharpness, color fidelity etc?

Thanks.


To my esteemed colleague and shooting mentor, and everyone else viewing, this is the question of the OP that I addressed. I didn't go into black bars and different aspects of various binoculars, brands and powers as I would have to write a book and you know I don't like to read.

In short, I will continue to recommend the 8X32 Swarovision to simply answer the above question, again, you will not be disappointed...


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Can't remember ever saying, "Damn these 10x42 Leicas. Wish I had me an 8."


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I don't know if he would or not, Kirk, and since he can't return it easily don't know whether I'd bet that firmly on him preferring it to his 10x42 Zeiss Victory, a very fine binocular I've also owned and used considerably. But whatever.

Oh, I forgot one thing. I would guess (but obviously don't know, with a couple of exceptions) that most people who responded haven't hunted New Zealand. It is different than Montana, and most other places I've hunted. While an 8x would do fine for much of the hunting, as it would anywhere on earth, for an all-around NZ glass I would definitely go 10x--and did, taking a 10x42 Meopta, and was very happy with the choice. The glassing was for animals the size of small deer to medium-sized elk, usually across a canyon or even two, without any snow for contrast, sometimes in the open but often in fairly thick vegetation. Maybe the OP can comment here.


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Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Can't remember ever saying, "Damn these 10x42 Leicas. Wish I had me an 8."


B-I-N-G-O!!!


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Someone needs to make a 9x42 binocular.



Swaro Ultra 9.


Pimp glass.


It would sell like crazy.

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That glass has been available for several years...Swarovski Swarovision 8.5X42. The question was about whether or not El 8X32 Swarovision was a good choice.


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I started out with 8's, tried 10's for a while, and then went to a pair of 8.5 Minoxs.

What I like about the 8/8.5s is their field of view. I usually carry a spotter, so honing in on fine detail isn't a huge issue for me.



Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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They need to call them 9's!, and or Ultra....(tongue in cheek comment).





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Originally Posted by russ_outdoors
Originally Posted by LostArra
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
zeissman,

And no 8x, not matter how good, will perform as well as a 10x of equal quality as in all-around, short-to-long use.


Not sure I understand this comment. Sounds like personal preference to me which is fine, but a 10x is not inherently superior as a binocular.

If both have 42mm objective, I'll take the 8x every time for "all-around, short-to-long use". But that is just my personal preference.


+1. Sitting or parked behind a tripod all day, give me the 10x (or more). On the move hiking, putting on a stalk or general all-around use give me an 8x. If it were only about magnification I'd be rocking 15x. ;-)

Here's another opinion I ran across doing some research years ago the OP may find useful:

"The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics... They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.

Bino's by design are handheld, so it only makes sense to use a binocular that gives you the best possible options while using them handheld. If most of your glassing is from a bluff overlooking a huge expands of land and you glass while sitting then by all means get a tripod and buy a 15X or use a spotting scope. But for that peice of glass that hangs around your neck that you use in MOST hunting conditions..... what's the best option? BTW I love those answers along the lines of "well I hunt out west were you can see for miles"?????? Well I live on earth and I can see for millions of miles with my naked eye completely through our atmosphere and see Mars. How many of you know that you can clearly see the rings of Saturn with only 20X. ..... (the larger the exit pupil the better the resolution.) By the way I live in New Mexico and can clearly see with as much detail as you can.... the same thing you're looking at with 10X...... because I use an optic that gives me excellent resolution and I CAN HOLD IT STILL ENOUGH to take advantage of that resolution.

Lets talk about hunting conditions. How many of you all are going to tell me you never use your bino with ONE hand. How many of you are going to tell me you can't "see" your heart beat or your breathing cycle when looking through your binos. How many of you are going to tell me you are as steady as a rock with a pack on your back and a bow or gun in one hand as you top a ridge and see movement on the next ridge over. How many of you are going to tell me you are as calm as a lamb when you see a tangled web of antlers on top of that buck or bull. Movement is your enemy when looking through any optic and the more power you try to handhold the more that movement is magnified. You see the question is NOT will the 10X or 12X bino produce good resolution. With most decent optics made today the answer is almost certainly YES they will produce good resolution. The question IS can you hold them steady enough to take advantage of that resolution? "


This. 7x is the sweet spot. 8x might be okay. If sniper instructors were required to use 10x's on stalking days, the graduation rate would be higher. What no one has mentioned is that as magnification increases, depth perception goes to hell, and that is just as important as resolution.

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Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Can't remember ever saying, "Damn these 10x42 Leicas. Wish I had me an 8."


Ditto.




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Well guys, I appreciate all and I mean all of your replies.

I do a lot of bush hunting at very close ranges, where I don't even take my binoculars. In spring and summer the Red and Sika deer venture out into more open country for the grass. They can be found early morning and evening on river flats, slips and clearings in heavily forested areas at say 70-220 yards, to open tussock country where the distances can be 600-1,000 yards or more. As I use a Sako 85 .308 with a Z6 1.7-10x42 scope, I limit my shooting to no more than 400 yards. If I see a good animal worth shooting at more than that distance, I'll attempt to get as close as I can.

Many deer don't venture out until just on dark, particularly so in well hunted public land. On private land and more remote areas they're naturally less cautious.

My Zeiss Victory HT 10x42 is a very good binocular in low light and very sharp too, but I find the barrels a little too fat for my girly sized hands. I also don't find the eyecups particularly comfortable. Apart from that, I like them. I can hold them reasonably steady up to a point. Not so easy though after hiking up some steep ridge as my recovery rate is nowhere near what it used to be. Still, I always glass from a sitting position unless it's a quick glance while on the move.

A good friend who uses Swaro EL 10x42 Range binos, dropped by tonight. He's a very successful and open minded hunter and he agreed with what shrapnel suggested. I can buy the 8x32 SV and trial them and if I don't want to keep them then I can sell them here in NZ. Swarovski is very popular with hunters here along with Leica. Zeiss less so as the importer seems to concentrate more on Conquest HD scopes. All the high end optics are expensive here so I would probably not lose any money on the 8x32 SV's and probably not on the Victory HT's either as I bought them at a good price from Camerland and I'll no doubt do the same with the 8x32 SV.

Thanks again for your help and hot barrels to you all.





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There seems to be a common trait here, those that want more power in their binoculars like lower power fixed scopes.

I don't know if that is a weakness or strength, but I do know I fall into the other camp with variable scopes and 8X...


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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Can't remember ever saying, "Damn these 10x42 Leicas. Wish I had me an 8."


Ditto.


A hearty Amen from the back row.....


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IMO-

Great choice! And from everything you are describing for your hunting needs- the 8x32 Swarovision will do everything you want. And the way you describe your hunting and elevation changes- well that is exactly why I suggested the 8x bino's. PLUS- you already have a great 10x for those times when you need it. I would venture to guess that after carrying around that little 8x32 Swarovision for a while- it will be your go to bino that you will pick up and use for 90% of your hunting. And then you still have a 10x HT for the times that call for that.

And that 8x32 Swarovision is a cracking binocular! In your original post you asked: ".... 8x32 SV, how do you rate them in low light, sharpness, color fidelity etc?". Well I can assure you that it has that in spades!

Here is a personal impression/ review that I did and posted a couple of years ago on what was IMO (4) of the best quality 8x32's around:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=236943

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Originally Posted by shrapnel


There seems to be a common trait here, those that want more power in their binoculars like lower power fixed scopes.

I don't know if that is a weakness or strength, but I do know I fall into the other camp with variable scopes and 8X...


^^^ totally agree, as I myself fall in the 8x camp. The more power is prevalent for sure. It is like Tim the tool man's famous call for more power. Well, sometimes more power is great and sometimes less is more.

And what is interesting to me in particular about John ( Mule Deer ) comments above is that all most 17-18 years ago I read an article by him extolling the virtues of lower power binoculars ( I think I still have it somewhat). Well anyways in the article he had a comment about some European optic company having an in office experiment between different optics. Some were 8x and some were 7x ( can you just imagine- only 7 power ;^). So they covered up the power symbols and had people look through them and say which one they liked the best. And... The consensus was the 7x was the winner by a large margin. The reason I found it interesting at the time was I was trying to decide between my first major optics purchase and was picking between a 7x and 8x Swarovski. And the store owner was trying to steer me towards the 7x- because he thought it was a better binocular for my needs, and my Brother in Law at the time said I should certainly get the 8x. Well, after reading the John Barsness article and thinking about it a while, I walked in and bought the 7x and never regretted it.

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Earlier I posted I purchased 10X Aplen Tetons. I bought them for my upcoming caribou hunt hunt and sheep hunt. I used to use to use 8X here in Western Oregon, but a couple years ago I switched to 7X35. I like them so much I sold or gave away all my 8X binos.

They are definitely not as good for discerning detail. The other day I found a bird on a vertical pipe about 100 yards away. I hurried went and got the Alpen 10X. Holding by hand I could tell it was not a bird, but a valve on the top of an exhaust pipe on the tractor. Ten power is better for those of us who can use it.


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I got a Swaro Companion 8x30CL last year. Love them they are a joy to carry and the clarity just blows my mind.


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llama2,

I never said anywhere in this thread that 8x (or even 7x) binoculars are useless. In fact if you read the posts I've made I emphasized more than once that I use 6x to 8x binoculars a LOT. For average hunting I usually pick up an 8x.

But for longer-range glassing (say more than half a mile) I much prefer 10x, for the reasons already stated. In fact for serious open-country glassing my preferred binocular, by far, is my 8+12 Leica Duovid. I often start out with it on 8x, for closer glassing (which is the place to start, even in open country) but within 20 minutes it usually ends up on 12x and stays there, because I can see better. (Maybe I have steadier hands than some other people, but I doubt it, especially since I'm the OP's age, 61.)

One other thing I'd like to point out is that I often compare an entire line-up of various binoculars, usually right as the sun is setting, usually with other people, since human eyes vary. While the 8x32 EL is a great glass (as noted, many people think they're the best 8x32 in the world, and I wouldn't dispute it), when comparing it to a 8.5x42 or 10x42 EL in that last few minutes of shooting light, the view degrades much more quickly and noticeably in the 8x32, and stays very sharp and bright much longer in the bigger Swarovskis.

This is due to a little-discussed facet of optics: The bigger the objective, the sharper the view, and no, that's not depending on magnification. This is because a smaller objective has more edge-to-lens area, and the edge of the lens is what scatters light, degrading the image. This tendency is exaggerated by dim light, when the pupils of our eyes open up.

The most extreme example I've ever seen happened when I was guiding in central Montana in the late 1980's. The outfitter I worked for had been given a Zeiss compact binocular, a 10x, as a tip by a customer. Can't remember right now if the objectives were 20mm or a little larger, but it doesn't matter.

That same fall an company noted for its very "affordable" optics sent me a 10x50 binocular which retailed for under $50. The outfitter and I were out scouting one day, just before some new clients came in, and of course he used his new, expensive Zeiss--and was really pissed off that I was seeing a lot more, even in bright daylight, with the cheapo 10x50. And when we switched glasses he could too.

The same principle applies even to Swarovski binoculars. Just because they make some of the finest optics in the world doesn't mean their binoculars bypass basic optical laws.

The OP will be very pleased with his 8x32 EL, as its one of the world's greatest hunting binoculars. But I would be interested to hear how he likes it after a few months, when he's had a chance to use it a lot more, especially in dim light and at longer distances.


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Good stuff John!

I always enjoy reading your information on optics ( and other things). Thanks.

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