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Originally Posted by bellydeep
Because obviously the conclusion was reached without any actual experience in the task at hand.

Obvious?

Y' know what it tells me about your intelligence when you call something "obvious" that is absolutely wrong?

Yep, confirmed: you won the dumb [bleep] award.

Tom


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Here be dragons ...
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Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by bellydeep
Because obviously the conclusion was reached without any actual experience in the task at hand.

Obvious?

Y' know what it tells me about your intelligence when you call something "obvious" that is absolutely wrong?

Yep, confirmed: you won the dumb [bleep] award.

Tom


Lets recap:

You tell a story about waiting for a wounded elk to be pushed to you.

You had a .257 Roberts.

You sat there waiting and decided it was too small.

The elk never came out, so you never got to try the .257 and gain ACTUAL experience.

The next year you killed your FIRST elk with a .300 Win.





I think that about covers it?

Show me again where you actually tried to kill an elk with your .257 before deciding it was too small and moving to a .300 Win?


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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To the OP- Go Hunt!
I've used the Roberts a bit and wouldn't worry as much as some here. It doesn't need to have Barnes (or any other) mono-metal bullet to work. I like 115gr or 120gr Partitions and Hornady 117 or 120's. The extra weight helps penetration just like with every other caliber.
Lots of animals are taken with small caliber guns every year.
Be sure to post pictures when you get one.


“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.”
Samuel Colt.

�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Originally Posted by BigNate
To the OP- Go Hunt!
I've used the Roberts a bit and wouldn't worry as much as some here. It doesn't need to have Barnes (or any other) mono-metal bullet to work. I like 115gr or 120gr Partitions and Hornady 117 or 120's. The extra weight helps penetration just like with every other caliber.
Lots of animals are taken with small caliber guns every year.
Be sure to post pictures when you get one.


+1


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Originally Posted by bellydeep
I think that about covers it?

Not at all. Your assumptions fail you.

Prior to that I'd killed a BUNCH of deer with the .257 plus a 3-4 things a little more than double the size of an elk.



Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.

Here be dragons ...
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My hunting buddy carries his 257 Bob every year for both elk and mule deer. He uses the 117 gr Sierra Game King. That rifle/bullet combo works extremely well for him with no objections from the participants.


Goofy aka graybird on other forums

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Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by bellydeep
I think that about covers it?

Not at all. Your assumptions fail you.

Prior to that I'd killed a BUNCH of deer with the .257 plus a 3-4 things a little more than double the size of an elk.



I'll bite ... What are these 3-4 things double the size of an elk?


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Originally Posted by imgoofy
Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by bellydeep
I think that about covers it?

Not at all. Your assumptions fail you.

Prior to that I'd killed a BUNCH of deer with the .257 plus a 3-4 things a little more than double the size of an elk.



I'll bite ... What are these 3-4 things double the size of an elk?


And what kind of penetration did you have on the deer you shot with your 257 that makes you think sticking it behind the shoulder of an elk wouldn't work?

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Keep um comin boys....

Laughin


"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
~Admiral Yamamoto~

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
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You don't get it, do you?

I had a little skinny lane to shoot down. 12 feet approximately. No visibility on either side. If that elk had crossed those 12 feet we'd have been fooked. It's bad steep and real brushy for 3 miles after that.

The point of .257 vs .300 had nothing to do with shoot it behind the shoulder, it was about shooting it THROUGH both shoulders .. right through the big damn ball joints and turning it feet to the sky without it getting even a foot beyond that 12 foot lane.

I'm done. I've said my piece ... this field is yours. Enjoy.


Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.

Here be dragons ...
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T O M:

Don't start trying to confuse the issue with science and facts.

The 257 is just as good an elk gun as the 300

Especially when it's in the hands of a skilled marksmen.

Haven't you been paying attention?


Last edited by 99guy; 08/27/14. Reason: can't type

"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
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Originally Posted by T_O_M
You don't get it, do you?

I had a little skinny lane to shoot down. 12 feet approximately. No visibility on either side. If that elk had crossed those 12 feet we'd have been fooked. It's bad steep and real brushy for 3 miles after that.

The point of .257 vs .300 had nothing to do with shoot it behind the shoulder, it was about shooting it THROUGH both shoulders .. right through the big damn ball joints and turning it feet to the sky without it getting even a foot beyond that 12 foot lane.

I'm done. I've said my piece ... this field is yours. Enjoy.


So this bull is being pushed by your friends and is possibly wounded so this bull is moving along not just out on a sunday stroll and you have a 12' window with zero visibility on both sides. That bull is going to make it across that in two strides and you would have been able to get your 300 shouldered and on the elk in time to put one through his shoulders?

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The best hunter in our elk camp always carried a .270 and killed his elk with it quite handily. Sitting in tent one night, right after he'd killed a boxcar cow with one shot, he decided he needed a .300 Mag to really kill elk properly. Next year he came to camp with a silly damn Weatherby and a 4x14 scope. Promptly shot a 4x4 rag horn through the gut. Another hunter from our group ran across the poor little devil bedded out in the open and killed it. The next year he blew a leg off a decent bull. Had heavy snow cover and we followed the bull into the unit next to ours -- decided not to press our luck in an area where we didn't have a liscense. We pulled out and never did retrieve him.

This example doesn't prove anything -except - it takes more than paper ballistics to kill an elk.


“My horn is full and my pouch is stocked with ball and patch. There is a new, sharp flint in my lock and my rifle and I are ready. It is sighted true and my eyes can still aim.”
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Originally Posted by T_O_M
You don't get it, do you?

I had a little skinny lane to shoot down. 12 feet approximately. No visibility on either side. If that elk had crossed those 12 feet we'd have been fooked. It's bad steep and real brushy for 3 miles after that.

The point of .257 vs .300 had nothing to do with shoot it behind the shoulder, it was about shooting it THROUGH both shoulders .. right through the big damn ball joints and turning it feet to the sky without it getting even a foot beyond that 12 foot lane.

I'm done. I've said my piece ... this field is yours. Enjoy.


Before you leave, I'd still like to know what those 3-4 things are. Inquiring minds want to know!


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Cartridge debates are a lot of fun if done civilly. In fact, sometimes science (factual knowledge) gets in the way of a lot of fun.

In an arrow flying at about 300 FPS will kill an elk, just about anything will kill an elk if it destroys important stuff such as the stuff that gets oxygenated blood to an elk's brain. Biology wins every time. Puncture lungs and an elk downs in its own blood. He won't go far. Destroy its heart, get out your gutting knife.

The only thing I'll add/support is the part about Partitions. I ain't yet used Accubonds. Partitions leave two blood trails: one on each side. If I were going with factory loads, I'd go with green box Core-Lokt, and not the expensive stuff.


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The reason why I step into these cartridge discussions is usually thus: there is an aspect of the discussion that I advocate for, which is if a certain cartridge and bullet has been used to hunt and take a certain animal, and it has been successful more than a few times, then that cartridge/bullet combo IS effective for hunting and taking that animal. We can argue the value of overkill, or of errant shots, etc, when it comes to how well a cart/bullet combo actually works, but if it has been done, it can be done. I chuckle inside when I consider the veracity of certain arguments in regard to 'light' cartridges and big game vs magnums.

There is nothing magical in a headstamp that alters the laws of physics. Bullets that injure or destroy vital structures harvest animals. How one decides to go about that is the most important factor in cartridge and bullet choice.


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It cracks me up when people generally believe that one cartidge or another is a majic wand and everything shot with it will automatically fall down right where you want it to.

The one thing about elk hunting you'd better be willing to accept is that they rarely die in a handy spot.


“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.”
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�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Originally Posted by BigNate
It cracks me up when people generally believe that one cartidge or another is a majic wand and everything shot with it will automatically fall down right where you want it to.
.....


Yeah there really isn't any magic.

My elk hunting education got started watching a Wyoming rancher friend haul in all kinds of elk killed with a measly little 250 Savage.Along the way others hunting the ranch (local guys)used the Roberts, the 243,270,25/06,308 Norma, 7 mags, etc, etc. It seems that killing large animals like elk with smaller calibers is something of a western tradition. smile

I spent nights with a cold beer or a cup of coffee,and a skinning knife chasing wound channels through elk carcasses and looking at the damage done by various bullets and calibers.It really did not take long to figure out that the trauma inflicted along the wound channels was greater with the 30 calibers than anything much smaller.

Since I was digging around the carcasses of dead elk, it was pretty obvious that the 25's killed them;but it was equally obvious from the size and nature of the wound channels, depth of penetration,broken bones,etc., that the 30's had more of what it takes to be a good elk killer than the 25's,with the bullets of the day.(Of course we have better bullets today in both 25 and 30 caliber so the playing field is equal in that regard).

These conversations go round and round because there is only a singular degree of "dead", but infinite variations of wounding effect, depending on the bullet construction, impact velocity (distance),what we hit, and so forth and so on.

So it seemed to me that the conversation should not be about what "kills" them, but rather what kind of wound trauma we can expect to inflict with a 30 vs a 25 under a broad range of conditions. I think the 30 calibers win hands down.

This may seem a bit arcane but it led me to the conclusion that I'd hunt elk with a 257 Roberts if it's all I had(I've killed piles of deer and antelope with the cartridge);but would rather take a 30/06 or 300 magnum for the job.I have never regretted that decision.I can't wrap my head around the notion of a Roberts being anything like a 300 magnum in terms of effectiveness on animals of the size and tenacity of a big bull elk.

BTW the rancher who got me started on this stuff went from that 250 Savage to a 270;found it very much more effective than the 250 Savage...he has also used some 7 mags and a 300 Win mag. He says the 270 kills them fine, but the 300's just pound them at any distance. He has killed a LOT of elk. smile

As always, YMMV.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Good post Bob and I agree that if you can shoot the 300WM as good as the .25 bore then that's the gun to use. But most cant shoot the 30 cal mags as good as they can the smaller caliber.

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+1 Bob.

A bit of western tradition, I agree. Guys around hear smoke elk every year with various 6mm's and 25 cal rifles.

I have yet to kill an elk with my bob or the 25-06, just have not seen an elk while I have said calibers in hand.... another tradition that happens a great deal while hunting elusive elk, the lack of elk....

No replacement for shot placement and know your limits.... Thats what I have learn't from 25+ years of hunting elk in the rockies wink


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