Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Why should/shouldn't I get a .444

Recently picked up a Ruger 77/44 to complement my SBH. It is light, slick and plenty accurate for its purpose. I am keeping it iron sighted and will probably take it hunting this year with the SBH.

Lately, I've been perusing info on the .444 and it sure is tempting. I won't go into the whole .45-70 vs. .444 debate b/c the reason I'm looking at the Trip is for bullet uniformity.

Stanton's three part article on BTB really whetted my appetite. Can't find brass but my local SW has dies and factory ammo (expensive) from which to obtain brass. MS got superb accuracy from his marlins with heavy cast which is what I would be aiming for.

Is it a worth chasing or am I better off being happy with the Ruger which will certainly do the job and with less weight? Is the .444 just redundancy with added recoil?

Sure seems like it would be a fun cartridge to take up Muley/elk and/or bear hunting in the timber....

The 77/44 is more of a brush gun than any leveraction, it handles like a dream. I have three 444 "Outfitters" and can't tell you they do anything a 44 can't.

77/44, Hell yeah!

The 77/44 synthetic stock kicks harder than a Marlin 444 by a substantial margin.

To be quite honest, you have about the perfect Big Bore Combo when considering the range you'll be using them. I think your 77/44 deserves a scope.

I can only tell you what I'd do, and that's if you want it, get it.

If you do get one, I'd try for one with the tighter twist. That big case just begs to sling heavies, and you can still shoot 240s/265s. A .444 with a 300 grain (or heavier) hardcast is a beast.

Insofar as deer, pig, or black bear hunting, the 77/44 is enough, but I would feel better with a trip4 on the bigger animals such as elk, moose, and the big bears.

You mentioned .45-70 vs .444, and that's a debate I don't understand. Both can shoot light bullets fast or chunk out heavy ones, and there isn't anything on this continent that can stand up to either.

Match the bullet to the job and heck with the headstamp.

I say grab the .444! In reality, for deer in thick cover the .44 covers your bases just fine, but the Triple Four is cool. The three that I have are a hoot to shoot and one of them is usually in my hands for at least half of rifle season.

I like the 444. As far as compared to what you have I can't say you would be any happier except for a step up in power and a reason to buy another gun!

I think some of the Hornady ammo says 1 in 20" twist on the box. The three outfitters I have are 1 in 20".

I've been lookin at the Marlin 444P which is the Outfitter, right?

It has the 1-20" Ballard and the short barrel. The on,y thing I wish was different is I like the pistol grip vs. the straight grip, but I could live with it (or find one to swap out, I guess).

It sure ain't a need but thought it might be cool to have a thumper throwing heavy cast that didn't weigh as much or use as much powder as my old .375!

Mojo,

If that is the route you wanna take, I suggest buying a new 444 XLR and cutting the barrel to 19" with target crown. You'll be happy as hell.

If that were mine, the first things I'd grab would be a can of H4198 and a box of Beartooth Bullets 300 grain WFN.

And I wouldn't be afraid to look at anything on this continent through the sights. You can get enough velocity to have a relatively flat trajectory, and the WFN can dig in and break some running gear.

And with the 1/20 twist, even heavier is quite a possibility.

444SS is the way to roll.....

As long as it has 1 in 20" rifling.

Either twist rate works just fine. Lotta myths out there about the 1-38" Marlins. ALL started by the unknowing.....

300 grain and above can be marginally stable with 1/38 twist, no problem with 1/20, and there is no need to even try something like the 405 grain Beartooth, which is quite stable with the 1/20 twist.

Velocity begins to play a very important part of stability, which will limit how wide a range of velocities you can load the rifle to. Things must be pretty much balls to the walls with the heavier projectiles (300 to 355 grains).

Even if my original intention is to load a .444 at 2200 to 2300 fps with a 240 grain bullet, I prefer the option of having the ability to play with the heavier bullets.

If you're a fan of 1/38, that's fine, but you're leaving potential performance on the table.

The bullet you state may not work, but just about everything else up to 355gr that I have tried work fine. I'd not say that is a very "limited selection".

I load mostly 270gr Gold Dots. And 300gr Speer Uni-Cor. They are bonded and kill deer/blackies with authority.

335gr shoot very well out of my gun also. I loaded 355gr for my bud's grizzly bear hunt. They hovered right around 1.1" groups.

And for the record, there is no such thing as "marginally stable" when it come to a bullet. It either is or it isn't.

If 355gr isn't enough bullet, then get a 1-20". But I like the quality of the older Marlins better......

That, I cannot argue. I've seen too much not-so-good out of the Remington stuff that it will be awhile before they regain my confidence, but I understand that quality is improving.

In getting your heavier bullet to stabilize, you've probably had to resort to near-top speeds, which is something a tighter twist would not demand, you could slow the bullet down if you wanted.

My own .444 was an SS model, and I found the range of bullets I could fire to be like yours, I just had to zing 'em on out there fast, or groups would start to open up, finally keyholing. That area could be construed as "Marginal". Not that it kept me from using the rifle, it's just I felt some versatility was lost.

I finally settled on the 265 Hornady.

The 355 grain Beartooth bullet is similar in SD to the .458 Piledriver Jr, and would be an excellent choice for big animals/bone-breaking. I use the PD jr quite a bit.

But you pretty much stated your case with the vintage of rifle you like, and it simply was not available with the tighter twist.

Top speeds are never a bad thing in my book. And without high velocity, indeed faster twist is sometimes needed. Actually, RPM is the deciding factor of stabilization. Twist is merely one part of the equation. It is used because it is easier for Joe Hunter to understand and to paste on the side of a box of bullets. But recommended twist rates are not written in stone. They are merely generalizations of what will work MOST of the time. Of course the handloader can often stabilize a bullet recommended for a faster twist simply by adding a bit more powder/velocity to the equation. The key is to choose a powder that achieves max velocities on the lower end of the pressure spectrum.

If you haven't tried the 270gr Speer in your 444 you are missing out. It is a far tougher bullet than the 265gr Hornady. They work excellently at 444 velocities. Penetrates deeper and retains more weight than the Hornady. I have compared the 2 side by side many times. No contest. Great for deer/blackies. Extremely reasonably priced as well, especially for a bonded core bullet. The one I recovered on the off side hide of a 300lb. black bear still retains 92% of it's weight. The 300gr Uni-Cor is just more of a good thing. Expands a tad less, drives a tad deeper.

I think they call them Deep Curls now.....

I never got a chance to try the 270s, I sold the .444 to a fellow who was extremely interested in it, and I kinda regret it, now.

If I keep missing it enough, it will be replaced, and I will keep that bullet in mind. I know the 265 was/is a damn good bullet for the .444, so for the 270 Speer to exceed it, well, it only works out better for the shooter.

The Unicor is a bullet I have experience with in the .45-70, and it has served well in that cartridge. The same bullet design/weight would offer better SD in the .444.

I am well aware of the velocity/twist thing, and as long as you like higher velocity, then a slightly slow twist won't be an issue. And, I also like to use powders that exploit the space of a case without undue pressure.

It sounds like you have been around loading for big bores at least a day or two....(grin)

Yes, I have my share of leverguns. Marlin 444s, 336s, Winny 94s, 55, 64, 71, 88, 86, to name a few. A couple of Savage 99s as well. I handload everything.

Packing up some rifles and heading out now.........

No, either twist rate doesn't work fine. It depends on all those facts and figures you stated which this time I somewhat agree with. Both the 444 and 44 mag can behave radically different depending on twist rate, velocity, and bullet weight.

I recommended 1 in 20" because thats an option, and why not.

Whether you agree or not, as I stated, unless you feel you need to shoot something over 355gr, a 1-38 will get it done. Been there, done that.

If a 355gr 444 load won't kill it, I'd suggest a larger cartridge.

Why not a 1-20"? Because I like the older Marlins better. Just like I like my Winchesters to be pre-64s. The new ones have no soul.......

444P or a cutdown XLR

If it has a brake you can keep it.

Is that what the P suffix stands for.......porting? It should stand for pussy. Marlin 444P Pussy Edition. Because that's what it is.

XLR=Stainless and laminate.........makes me wanna hurl. I can do stainless, but not on classics. I don't do laminate on anything. The XLR is dogshit.......

Your mommas a pussy, and your kids dogshit

You just crossed a line that we don't cross here. What a lowlife POS you are. Proximity is everything. Your're lucky it's on your side at this moment.......

Wow, opinions can be strong!

I happen to like laminate, not so with porting, but that's what I consider my prerogative.

Y'all can set your guns up as you wish, ain't costing me anything.

IMO---Laminate is heavier than both wood and synthetic. It is not as durable as synthetics, and not as pretty as wood. It is the best of NEITHER world.

As for stainless, why doesn't Marlin at least bead blast it? Not that I would prefer it then either, but toting around shiny things while hunting makes no sense to me on any level. Again, JMO.

Just another attempt to sell guns by trying to turn something into someting isn't. Leverevolution ammo is a joke, and so are the guns for which it is contrived.

At least you can convey your opinion without insulting someone's family. Guns are just guns. People are people.

The only thing more lacking than Johnny's knowledge of firearms, is his lack of class. Not only are his comments in poor taste, so are his preference of firearms..........

You crossed the line first pussnut! Just letting you know how bad it sounds when you sling crap like you did. My proximity can be wherever you want me.

Regardless of caliber, stock type, metal, metal finish, bullet performance, you have no tolerance for other opinions.

You drew first blood smartass.

Are you such an ignorant POS that you cannot discern the difference between dogging on a firearm and and insulting another member's family?

You aren't worth wasting my time on. I do not threaten people, nor do I insult their loved ones. It only makes you sound like a classless moron. But if your proximity comment is for real, let me know upon your arrival in Detroit. I've got an extra 5 minutes to stomp a mudhole in your a$$ if you are up for it. Talk is cheap Johnny. Unlike you, I mean what I say, or I don't say it.

I'm done talking to you now, Johnny. Lemme know when you get here......

Marlin 444-P is an 18" ported 444

Had one...sold it & bought a.....

1895 GS 18" ported SS 45-70....mild to wild loads

Trailboss right up to a full case of H4198 & a 405 gr slug

Had a 444, a really nice late 60s vintage. Had the barrel cut to 18, XS Sights, etc...really nice gun that I never really liked. For me, there is nothing it does that a .44 levergun doesn't, excelt cost more to feed and produce a lot more recoil. If I lived in Elk, Moose, or Bear country my thoughts may very well be different.

That gun was sold on here, and I found a .44 Mag Winchester 94...which I like a LOT more.

I modified my Outfitter a few years ago. You only need to swap three pieces to convert an OUtfitter to pistol grip. Stock, lever and lower receiver plate. If you offer your parts in the flea market, you should quickly get someone willing to trade. Straight grip stocks are desirable to some folks.

300 grain sierra at 2150 fps with H335 with my 1:38 444 microgroove





300 cast Beartooth from same gun




BTW it will stabilize the 355 Beartooth

Ya gotta run them hard, but it can be done.

Is that the 300 WFN? I use that bullet in my .44 Mag rifle, use the LMN GC DCG in my pistols.

A .44 caliber 300 grain bullet can dig in deep.

Yes sir....

I understand any combo can be accurate, I was just plugging the "P".

While I know the idea of using interchangable components for reloading is attractive, to do so would negate the advantages of the .444 The slower twist rate would almost certainly limit the bullet weights you could use in the .444 and using lighter weight bullets (300 grains and under) would gain little (if any) advantage over the .44 Magnum. In fact, due to the increased velosity bullets of 240-265 grains might even perform poorer than in the .44 Magnum by overexpansion and under penetration.

To me, the .444 just crys out for heavy bullet loads of 350, 400 or even 425 grains. If the .444 had been loaded from the start with a good 400 grain bullet.....there would never have been any .444 -vs- .45-70 debate as they would perform in the same class. If you insist on a .444, then go with the faster twist rate, find some good 400+ grain bullets and give up on the idea of using the same components as the .44 Magnum. Or.....just go with the .45-70 and make your life much simpler.

It would "limit" you to 355 grains or so. If that isn't heavy enough, a larger caliber/cartridge would be a better choice than a heavier bullet in the 444. Period.

I agree that certain bullets may perform worse at the higher velocities because they were made for handguns. But a 270 gr Speer or 300gr Speer will flat out amaze at 444 velocities. They are bonded, 2200fps is completely attainable, and the last 300 lb bear I killed with the 270 broke both shoulders and still retained 92% of it's weight. Still have the bullet, which ALMOST came out the opposite side hide of the bear.

The 300gr bullet I used fully penetrated both sides and left a HUGE wound channel. MOF, both Speer bullets left larger wound channels AND penetrated deeper than bears shot with 450 Marlin via 350gr Hornady XTPs................

I can easily believe a 300 grain (properly constructed) .429 bulet outperforming a 350 grain .458 bullet. 350 grains is a redicuously lightweight bullet for the .45-70.

Sounds like you like the big stuff. My kinda guy.

Without looking it up, I'd guess the 444 300s had about same SD as the 350 in the 450 Marlin. BUT, the Gold Dot/Uni-Cor is a FAR better/tougher bullet than the XTP. It absolutely drives deeper and retains more weight. Especially at higher velocities.

My general feeling on the 444 is that if a 350gr won't do it, I'd rather step up in caliber than weight.......

for about 20 years I hunted deer with a marlin 444,one of my elk hunting camp friends bought a marlin 444 to camp one year , it was one of the early models with the longer barrel and cheek piece stock,I loved the rifles looks and the way it shot,so I bought one that year, I think it was 1965, a few years later hornady started making the 265 grain bullets available for hand loading, never felt I had any reason to change

btw the load we found worked the best on elk in those marlin 444 rifles was the hornady 265 grain bullet over 45 grains of imr 4198 and a 215 fed primer, at about 2100fps and resulting 1" 100 yard groups

I think they were only available that way for a couple years before the barrels were shortened and the stock was changed.
I stupidly sold it when a friend offered me more than I paid for it brand new,after 20 years of use.
I felt like I was missing something after selling the marlin, but after I purchased a BLR in 450 marlin I,m even happier with that,rifle, its throwing a 405 grain bullet at about 1800fps and easily shoots 1" 100 yard groups, with a load of 50 grains of imr 3031 powder over a 215 fed primer , and now comparing the two I can,t see why I like the marlin nearly as well.