Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Hunter and BC guide caught poaching in Yukon.

The fines will certainly hurt, $26,500......... but the prohibition from hunting, 10 and 20 years, really is a fine judgement!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...hunt-1.2748543

Ted

Ted
Glad to see they got more than a slap on the wrist.
By the way, when i was going through the Yukon this summer, I was surprised at the harvest reports in the Game Regs, and just how small the big game harvest is in the Yukon.
Fred

Hope that jackass from WY gets banned here as well.

It's not even the first time that "guide" has been in hot water this summer

http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/poachingtrial/

They should fine him toss him in jail and he should loose his outfit in southern bc. There is no room for a few rotten apples out there.

Yes, I knew that. Here's the same article from another source.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...n-yukon-a-big-concern-official-1.2721947

Ted

Agreed sir!

Either Abe Dougan is a magnet for LEO, or he's an unethical scumbag. It looks like he's the latter, based on the evidence. Some of us try very hard to maintain the spirit of game laws, if not the letter. I have plain contempt for those who flaunt both.

What is the reason behind the six-hour prohibition after flying in?

To prevent people from spotting game, landing next to it and shooting. In AK you cannot hunt until after 3AM of the day following any day you were airborne in a non-regularly scheduled flight.

Would it be cruel and unusual punishment and help curb poaching if the Wyoming residents picture was on the front page of his local newspaper? If not, that should be mandatory in sentencing?

Tallerico is an ortho surgeon out of Star Valley. It's a small, tight knit community, I'm sure word is already out. http://www.saltriverortho.com/index.cfm?ID=4

He also is a member of Kryptek gear's "Prostaff". Yikes! http://www.kryptek.com/prostaff/dr-brian-tallerico-sawbones/

Sad when professionals can't be professional.

Some think they are far enough away from home to get away with poaching. No so.

Other than that, it was a hell of a hunt. Hero pictures did them in.

I have no sympathy.

I read the article. So they hunted before the time between flying and hunting was up? Was this what made the poaching claim? Did they have licenses for all the animals they shot? Was the main issue that they did not keep all the sheep, moose and Caribou meat? The practicality of carrying out the meat from a Caribou, a moose and a sheep in it's entirety in a small plane along with all the gear is almost not there. I am not being skeptical as I am planning to hunt Canada and would really like to know the answers.

They had all the tags. It was a wanton waste issue, as well as a shooting 4 hours too early issue.

Not sure how it all went down. Game very well could have been butchered, and the "guide" said he'd fly it out and donate it, but to save money he ditched it. Who knows?

I'd not crucify the hunter just yet. The guide knew better.

Copied and pasted from page 30 of the Yukon hunting regulations synopsis.

"Waste of Meat or Fur

It is unlawful to waste the meat from a game bird, small game animal or big game animal, other than a bear, wolf, coyote, wolverine or furbearers. (If a small game animal or game bird is delivered to a taxidermist to be mounted, the waste of meat provisions of the Wildlife Act do not apply.)

Meat is considered to be wasted when part of an animal that is reasonably suitable for human consumption is:

fed to dogs or other domestic animals

abandoned

destroyed or allowed to spoil

used for bait

left in the field without being properly dressed and cared for to prevent the meat from being scavenged or spoiled

Meat includes the neck and rib meat, the two front quarters down to the lower leg joint, the two hind quarters down to the hock, the backstraps and the tenderloins.

It does not include the head, hide or viscera.

Successful hunters are required to take all of the meat from the kill site to the departure point (the place where it will be transported from the field) before taking the horns or antlers of the animal to that point. If all the meat is to be transported at once, horns or antlers may be taken with that meat, or horns or antlers may be taken with the last load of meat.

Any meat left behind once the horns or antlers are removed from the kill site is considered abandoned.

It is unlawful to allow the hide or pelt of a bear, coyote, wolverine or wolf to be wasted."


So, the meat must be taken out before the trophy, and you need to make as many trips as required with an airplane, ATV, horses, backpack, or whatever, to retrieve all the edible meat from any animal taken.

Both the guide and the hunter are responsible to know and understand the regs before hunting. In fact, the guide is required to report any violations.


As well, the use of a helicopter to assist a hunter in any way is prohibited, except in the case of emergencies.



Last year we needed two trips with a Beaver float plane, at $825 per trip, to get the meat from two moose and two caribou out. Worked out to about a buck a pound. Then, two more trips for six people, gear, and our camp.

Ted

So poaching really was not the issue here. They were licensed, the guide allowed his hunter to shoot before the fly to hunt time had expired. The waste of resource is wrong also but it seems the fines are a bit high in this case along with the confiscation of trophies. I feel the guide failed his hunter in this case.

I think you are completely missing the point.

The guide was experienced, and knew the law. The hunter was very experienced, and should have known the law. Shooting before six hours after landing in a plane IS poaching.

As for the waste meat, certainly the hunter must have wondered about leaving close to 1000 pounds of edible meat behind, and should have asked the question if he did not know.

This is not a special law for guided non-residents. Same law for anyone who hunts in the Yukon. Same rules for everybody!

If you can afford to go on a guided hunt for tens of thousands of dollars, you can certainly afford to bring out the meat!

Why do you think the fines are excessive? What do you think would have been appropriate?

Ted

Hi Fred,

Although the Yukon is huge, the population here is only about 32,000, with approximately 4000 licences issued each year, including non-residents.

That is part of the reason the hunting is as good as it is. As well, the laws are strong enough to protect wildlife, and dissuade both residents and non-residents from violating those laws.

Consequently the harvest levels are much lower than if, for instance, one did not have to bring out all the meat from a hunt in the hinterland, or could just land a plane and shoot game.

In Alaska, as Art has already posted here, you cannot even hunt the same day as you fly.

Sorry we missed you while you were up here. We must have crossed paths after you left Eagle.
Ted

Exactly this is poaching and we dont need that over here and i think it didnt go deep enough on that case.

they should have no choice to come here for their trial too.

Game convictions should be on inter-provincial-territorial-state files and no one should be allowed to hunt or guiding after the conviction for the time said all over ....

Yukoner unfortunately for some breaking the law just a little bit is OK until they get caught. If you hunt in another state or country it is up to the hunter to know the law.

IMO, guided hunts are just that... guided. The hunter needs to know absolutely nothing about local laws, game, etc.

The buck stops at the guide. I guide a lot of trips all summer. Not one of my clients has ever known the laws. They do exactly as I say and they don't question it.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to put themselves at the mercy of the laws but rely on another person to determine what they are. "Ignorance is no excuse" is one of the first things you see in the fish/game law synopsis (in Alaska).

Good Morning, Calvin.

Sorry, but I do not understand that at all. Are you saying that in Alaska, if you guide a hunter or fisherman, and break the laws as was done in this case, all the client has to tell the judge is that he was following your orders, and he gets off?

This was not a mistake that occurred in the field. These guys flagrantly and intentionally broke the law!
Ted

We will have to just agree to disagree then. Responsibility starts within not with the other person IMHO.

like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are asresponsible as the guide for their actions.

the guide can intentionally misleading and in that case that is a different story but the hunter in that case can't be so innocent and naive without asking questions ... i may add in that case that the guide was caught in Yukon but he already had fines in BC and more than once ... a shame there is no one juridiction for at least whole Canada ...

those guys didnt even show up in court ... and the lawyers were over the phone ...

As with any crime, ignorance of the law is no excuse. That is about all you need to know before walking into court.

No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story.

well Alaska is different than Yukon on that like on others stuff ...

if for any reason one of your client is out of law: like shooting a 49 inches bull moose on a 50 inches area despite you saying no, he pretends at the court you didnt say anything and he is still clear ...

Calvin people are hiring guide because of the law not because they like us lol ... and i still dont understand why people can in Alaska hunt a moose or even a caribou without a guide ....

no more pro staff seems ...

Ok Calvin you can be the big bad tough guy...

Actually poaching would be shooting game without a license, out of season or on private property without permission. I would think handling the meat would be the guides responsibility. If I were hunting in another country with a guide and he allowed me to get in that much trouble I would sue his a$$ into the ground. I somehow believe something is missing from this story.

There are many other ways by whiich "guide" is defined. Certainly there are some specifics which a guide holds sole/ultimate responsibility for; they must know the laws as they apply but that in no way means that only they need be aware of them. If a guide encourages a client to cross the line; that's on both of them. If a guide allows a client to fudge the law; that's on both of them. If a client simply refuses to follow a directive; that's on the client. A client who needs a guide to know what the laws say is a hunter in need of a babysitter. (The hunter should know size requirements for example; the value of a good guide is knowing what a certain value actually is without putting a tape to the animal.)

As usual, you don't have a f-ing clue as to what you are talking about.

I'm not home right now, otherwise I'd post the reg, but I don't have my paperwork. It plainly states that the guide is responsible for making sure that client follows all laws, and does all the paperwork. To the best of my recollection, I cannot think of 1 case were the clients gets a ticket, in a guided case. It's always the guide, even on the filling out the back of licenses, etc.

Guided in the outdoors is just that.. guided. I've never had a client know the laws in AK. The laws are complex, they change, and they rely on the guide to "guide" them. I've had over a thousand type A personalities on my boat, and I've never had 1 of them dare not follow one of my directions. If a guide can't control his clients, he's in the wrong business.

Go figure, right? I guess every single one of Calvin's clients are fools...

Copied and pasted from page 17 of the current Yukon Hunting Regulations synopsis.


"Your Responsibilities as a Guide

These responsibilities apply to all guides, including Yukon residents guiding under a Special Guide Licence.


You must accompany your hunter at all times when hunting. See page 24 for details on what it means to accompany a hunter.

If your hunter commits a violation of the Wildlife Act you must mark the site and report the violation to a Conservation Officer as soon as possible.

You have a reasonable responsibility to ensure that the hunting laws, including those applying to the waste of meat and fur, are followed. See page 30.

You must complete and sign an Outfitter/Chief Guide/Hunter Report within 10 days of the end of the month in which the hunt occurred, whether or not any wildlife was killed. If no hunt occurred, you must still complete and sign the report within 10 days of the end of the month in which the permit expires.


Your Responsibilities as a Guided Non-Resident

You are responsible for following the hunting laws and ensuring that the meat and hide of any animal you kill is not wasted. See page 30.

You will be required to sign a legal document called an Outfitter/Chief Guide/Hunter Report. You should check this form carefully to make sure the information provided by your guide is accurate, including the kill location(s), dates and names of all people who acted as your guide.


If you kill a big game animal you must pay the harvest fee before leaving Yukon or within 10 days of the end of the hunt, whichever occurs first."

Yukon law is more simple isnt it ....

The guide here didn't get the fine

ver
Case number: AK13061660
Type: Take sublegal sheep
Text: On 08/13/13 at approximately 1558hrs, Alaska Wildlife Troopers from Aniak responded to
the Big River valley near the community of Stony River for the report of a sublegal dall sheep
ram that was taken by a hunter. Investigation revealed that Douglas Leach, age 58 of
Morgantown, WV, had harvested a sublegal dall sheep ram earlier that morning while on a
guided hunt. Leach was issued a summons with a mandatory court date in Aniak District Court
on 08/28/13 at 0915 hrs.
Author: TDA0
Received Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:20 AM and posted Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:47 AM

I posted this somewhere yesterday - thought it was here-






A guide's responsibility to prevent or report violations does not appear to take a client of the hook. Obviously a guide must know the regs; a client should know them also to avoid itchy finger situations that could put a guide in a tight spot. A guide's knowledge should clarify the details. I wouldn't consider the violations cited in this particular case to be mere details.

If the guide made the call he should also be on the hook in this case I would think. However some people can be very difficult and the hunter in this case might simply have shot the wrong animal. (The stories that could be told..... Could have been a classic case of lack of time behind the scope and shot the first one he found in the uber-power view.)