Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats another false shoulder question

I am going to make .280 RCBS casings out of .270 Winchester brass and I have a couple of dies to bring it up to 7mm and a .308 winchester die that I think that I can use to bring it up to .308 and then use the .280 RCBS die to create a false shoulder, then fire form. Is there another die that I could get to bring it barely above 7 mm and not work the brass so much? Could I just go from .270 to .308 in one step or is two necessary? Only other time that I have made a false shoulder I was going down all of the time. Has anybody tried to use a Lee collet die to step up the brass? I have lots to learn. miles

Don't know about the rest of it, but as the collet die has no expander, I don't see how it would work. The mandrel lacks the taper a regular decapper-expander has.

A Lee FL die is pretty cheap.

I have had one apart a long while back and I was thinking that the mandrel was tapered a little on the end and maybe it could be run into the brass and expand it. I was worried about collapsing the shoulder. miles

Miles, sinclair international sells a die for neck turning brass that possible could be used they may even turn a mandrel to the size you need,if I remember there pretty inexpensive!

I'd prefer a larger Virgin............

The Over all length is good on these and I was gifted 100 pieces of older Winchester, new brass along with the rifle. I am going to make some and see how it goes. If I buy another brass, I will try for .280 Remington, if I can come up with some. I am just trying to figure how to work this brass the least. miles

Cases shorten,when formed.

Hint..............

Is there a reason to go for the RCBS version over the AI?

milespatton;
Top of the morning to you sir, hopefully this last Sunday in September has treated you well so far.

As Stick mentioned, if I'm needing to make too much of a false shoulder I prefer larger brass for a parent. For instance I make .308 Norma brass from .338 Win Mag and the resulting case necks are more uniform than when one starts with 7mm Mag brass.

In my experience Stick is correct again when he states the cases get shorter.

Another way to perhaps skin this particular cat would be what we did with the neighbor's .30-06 Gibbs to make cases - which is to simply seat a long bullet way out front so it jammed into the lands.

I'll send the credit for this idea to John Barsness who suggested it to me instead of fooling with WW 231, cornmeal and lard like I'd planned.

We loaded a near top end '06 load in the rifle with the bullet seated out as described and the resulting cases were as perfect as you could hope for.

Anyway sir, hopefully that was some use to you or someone out there this morning. Good luck with your project whichever way you decide and all the best on your hunts this fall too.

Dwayne

More bullschit,less capacity and added expense are the "benefits"................(grin)

The rifle was a gift and already built. New .270 brass came with it along with the dies. miles

Give the brass away and cut to the chase...as the Entry Fee is minimal,to ring the bell by default.

Hint..............

Some friends loaded me 10 rounds using this method and we shot it some before I brought it home. I was thinking maybe case life would be better with the false shoulder method. I am just trying to think of all the different wrinkles before I make a bunch. miles

Finite headspace control,is never not a GREAT favor and on many levels.

Hint...............

milepatton;
Thanks for the reply and further information.

As this was the first time I'd done it that way I was curious to see what the cases would look like.

We did up about 80 that way if memory serves and if we'd stretched them too much at the web, I certainly couldn't see it and I was looking for that.

This chap will neck size only in a .300 Win Mag die with those Gibbs cases from here on out, so that should preserve the headspace just fine.

Anyway sir, for me one of the more intriguing aspects of being on a forum such as this is the potential to learn new twists to solve issues.

I'll be reading to see if there's a "better way" for this particular question for sure.

Thanks again, good luck with your cases and good hunting to you this fall.

Dwayne

A false-shoulder is the best option, and how to accomplish it need not be a stumbling block, just figure out the work-around...

Proper annealing is the key.

A 308 expander will work and not cause neck fragility or splits in a properly annealed neck. Try a couple and see for yourself. Use adequate lube.

Brass splits when it is work-hardened but annealed brass is malleable, and brass stretches without fracturing when in an annealed state...you should see how the ammo factories mash it around with 100 ton presses. There may be a dozen or more steps to the overall process, and with a few annealings along the way.

If it were me, I'd first anneal the necks for uniformity, then form a few. (Annealing needs be done correctly... you need to have a handle on that process as it is an acquired skill; it's all too easy to over do it and burn the brass).

Having the proper tools at hand is always an advantage that one should always take advantage of...

A 308 expander is 2x diameter larger than necessary, but it only takes about 10 minutes to turn a spare steel 308 expander button down half-way to split the distance, or to whatever diameter you want it to be, and tapered for the task.

Eventually acquiring the right tools is a good idea. I'm moving stuff around right now, or I'd send you one, but RCBS might make one for you...they used to do this kind of thing, but it doesn't cost anything to call them up and ask. They have always been very helpful folks. RCBS or Redding may have expander buttons available in custom sizes, look at their catalog.

The jamming method will work, with mixed results, but you have to jam the bullet hard and the rounds will not be the same as normal. The result is a waste of bullets and powder and primers and my time, so usually I would prefer the mechanical solution, but both methods are workable.

A false shoulder load looks odd, but can function more-or-less as a normal round if you can fit the same quantity of powder in the case.

It's no harm to try a few cases just as they are with your 308 button and see how it works out. If the necks tend to split after just a few firings, it's due to the added hardness caused by work-hardening due to the extra forming steps and not necessarily by the brass stretching.

I'm usually looking to anneal after half a dozen firings, so you might expect to lose half of that due to the case forming process without extra attention to the state of the brass hardness.

Wow................

I had a Shilen DGA in 280 in the 70s. There was an article in Rifle or Handloader where a fellow used 270 Win. brass (lighter in weight so more capacious) to form 280 Rem. He was using a 160 grain bullet seated way out. I had my 280 throated to take the lengthened round. I started to form a false shoulder on the 270 brass by running them through a 30-06 sizer and lost brass right and left. I even tapered the expander on the die. Nothing helped until I ordered a tapered expander plug from Huntington custom shop that screws into the top of the 280 die. I expanded cases fine then to 30 cal, then resized the right amount in the 280 full length die with the original expander rod and plug. Cute little shoulder was left above the original shoulder which allowed a crush fit. Fire form and life was great. Crappie started biting better too. Those 270 converts are a little short after fireforming but mine were several grains lighter and I got more velocity out of my reloads.

Well, I tried a few expanding with a 7mm the going to .308 but did not like the way my RCBS die was working. It seemed to me the taper was too abrupt and then there was some roughness in the center of the expander plug (crosshatching) that seemed to drag. I did some looking around a Lee expanders have a lot of taper so I ordered one in .308 and just got through installing it. Trying to decide what to put it in I spied my Lee Universal Decapper and the expander works the same as the decapping stem. I installed the .308 expander in the Universal Decapper and ran 2 through to see and it worked great, expanding in one step with very little effort or drag. I have the die set to neck it back down with the false shoulder and just need to fine tune it while trying the fit in the rifle. I have a football game to watch this afternoon but will make some brass tonight or tomorrow. It should go fast since I am almost set with different dies in different presses. miles