Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 6.5 or 30

So here is the thing. I finally got drawn for bull elk after many years. I have a 6.5 pushing the 127gr lrx 2880fps. I did buy a new 300 wsm and spent a bunch of time effort and money trying to get 200 parts, 180 btip/accu and 180 parts to shoot. No go so I'm thinking it likes lighter bullets. So do I keep trying to get something like a 150/165 ttsx or part to shoot or do I go with the 6.5 127 lrx that is stupid accurate and ready to go?

You'd do well with the 6.5. It is plenty of gun and bullet, particularly if you can shoot it as well as you've indicated. I can't think of a situation within the normal scope of elk hunting I've seen where your 6.5 with the monometal bullet would be inferior to the 300 with a lighter-for-cal bullet. On par with, given good shooting with both, but not inferior to.

How many elk have you killed w/ the 6.5 LRX?

David

Absolutely zero. You?

Absolutely zero. I have a 6.5 Creedmoor that shoots the 127LRX exceptionally well, just a little faster and I too was curious as to the possible performance on elk.

I too speculate that the 6.5mm LRX would work well on elk. I wasn't dispensing advice, I was reading it. I was merely attempting to ascertain the value of that advice. You've answered that question for me.

David

I'd personally search for an adequate load in the .30 caliber rifle.

If per chance you're faced with a long quartering shot, you'll be happy for the extra energy and potential penetration.

Even My .264 magnum don't have 1000 ft-lb energy at the longer ranges.....however if the expected shooting distance is short it's a moot point.....

Hey....it's your hunt and your money.....do it your way!

An Elk can be quite a large animal...what 30 and 338 calibers are made for. Do the animal justice.

Seen this movie before.

It ends the same every time.

Well, I can extrapolate well enough, since all bullets obey the same laws of physics.

A monometal 6.5 shot very accurately and placed well on elk will kill it every time. Looks like a 500yd combo to me. I imagine the whole thing would be ho hum, free of drama, as far as gun and bullet go. Many small bullets will kill big animals if placed well. And since I've seen elk soak up shot after shot of 338 and act unphased, it's not a matter of knocking one down with something bigger. Elk die from holes, just like everything else that gets hunted.

All that said, I like 30 cals shooting heavy bullets for elk. If I had an accurate 6.5 handy, I'd not feel undergunned.

I'd say have the 6.5 ready but keep looking for a .300 WSM load. If you're going to try 165s/168s, give the 165 grain partition a try as well. It would address your gun not like flat based bullets and not liking longer bullets if that's the problem.

Uh, just how bad is it shooting with the 180s?

I have a 260 and a 300WSM both set up the same. Yeah I'd try the TTSX or another mono, those are still long bullets though.

What's your best WSM load so far? Factory loads won't shoot either? Bedded, good scope?

How long of a shot do you expect?

Shoots my hand loaded 165 speer deer loads .5 moa to 400. Also shoots factory cheap 150gr federal .75 moa. So I know the gun shoots and nothing else is amiss. It's just that I wouldn't want to use either on elk hunting. If it's a bullet length issue then the 165 mono won't worth either as they are as long or longer than the 180/200s I've tried.

Maybe try the 165 PT, AB or Northforks. Those three shot very well in my 300WSM with RL19 right around 3100FPS. I wouldn't be scared to run any of them into an elk either.

I have killed elk with a 300 WSM and a 260. I will happily carry the 260, however, I used the 139gr. Scenar out of my 260.

Oh yeah it'll work alright, just hate to see a guy buy a 30 mag that doesn't like elk bullets. If it just won't shoot anything long try the ugliest, shortest bullets like a 165/180 A Frame or a heavy RN. The 130 TSX is shorter than the 180 PT too.

You didn't say how accurate your loads are so I won't bug you about it but even a 2 MOA elk load is good out to that 400 yards.

If it was consistent 2 moa I could live with it but it's not.

I've used 120 gr TTSX 6.5mm out of a .264 on elk before. Worked out, not as well as 140 gr Partitions had before and after. If you don't like you .300 WSM don't use it, but if you do, go for it.

I can. When the monometal fails to open up, and it happens, especially at slower velocities.

oops! Did not read it was accurate with 165 grain bullets. Why wouldn't a 165 30 cal work for elk? I have harvested elk with them in a 30 06 & a 300 savage.

Have you shot game with the new LRX's ? Supposed to open a little better than the other X's at lower velocities, hard to find much find much first hand game performance information on them. They sure do shoot good in my rifle....

David

The LRX is a tipped bullet. BC .468 MV 2880 at elk altitude. It is still doing 1800 at 800yds. I doubt failure to open on an elk-sized animal is even a factor, even at insane range. As I said, in the normal scope of elk hunting, that bullet is going to open. There is no reason why it won't.

I don't like monometals. I don't use them. They are too expensive to work with, IMO. That doesn't mean that I don't know how, or why, they work. I like big, soft bullets that do a lot of damage, fragment, exit.

Anyone else want to try and explain why a 6.5 127 LRX won't work for elk? Silly.

Might be seeing a rehash of this previous thread.
VanZwoll, 6.5 Creedmore, 129gr Hornady, 603 yd shot.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4401608/1

I've shot a truckload of elk over the years, about 1/2 with a 270 and 1/2 with 300 WSM. I can honestly say that I haven't shot a single one with the 300 that the 270 wouldn't have put down about as well. That said, I sure like the way the 300 WSM shoots.

You'd be wrong, it happens. A good friend of mine used my handloaded 168 TTSX's (also "a tipped bullet") to shoot a whopper of a bull at under 100 yards. He hit it in the heart, which was a good thing because the bullet looked brand new, except for the missing tip.



Yes, it actually does mean that.

Your friend shot an elk with a 168 TTSX at less than 100yards and recovered an unexpanded bullet minus the tip?

What rifle/load? Where was it hit? Where was the bullet found?

David

No.



Yes



I think rather than rifle/load, velocity is what you're looking for. MV of 2,650. Bull was broadside, and the shot through the ribs, through the heart. The heart muscle could've slowed it down some to help keep it in the chest. The bullet could've also turned broadside. Can't recall where he found the bullet, but since it apparently hit little if any bone, under the off-side hide is a pretty good bet.

300 with 180 TTSX
on recovered bullet with only tip missing
did your friend dig it out of dirt? if so...I call B...S....
Ive shot 2 elk with just regular tsx out of 06. 3 shots. never found one bullet. one destroyed the shoulder and never found. finished with a neck shot and didn't care about the bullet in the dirt.
one made the lungs look like I just put them through the blender.

So I assume you've never shot an elk with a rifle using "monometals", but you've "heard stories."

I'll leave it at that.

150 TTSX from my 300 WSM has accounted for several deer, elk and bears from under 50 yds to a lasered 487yds. Always shot broadside and all were 1 per customer. All exited with good apparent expansion and jello in the chest.

Lots of guys have killed tons more game with them but never had one fail myself, friends or family in what is likely approaching 100 head of game.

Well, you'd be wrong then. Puker.

Did he dig it out of the dirt? I already answered that question.

You "call BS?" If you're gonna call someone a liar, you really should take the 10 seconds to read what they've said beforehand. Especially if you're gonna base your opinion on a sampling of 2 animals. Success with 2 animals means a lot less than you think it does.

As far as Barnes bullets "always exiting" on elk, no they don't. I was standing behind my son when he shot a cow with another 168 TTSX that I loaded for a .308. Range was about 40 yards and it didn't exit.

As far as not opening, I'm not the only one with examples of this. Brad, who used to post here, quit using them for the same reason. There's another guy, BWalker IIRC, who used to have an avatar with a photo of a Barnes that didn't expand.

Barnes bullets are great, most of the time. Especially when pushed fast. My mistake in loading them for my friend's .308 was in going heavy/slow with 168's. I should've gone with 150's, or better yet, 130's.

Two animals...but 3 bullets!

Kman, you may want to walk the scale down to a box of 168 Nosler BT to see if accuracy improves before dropping down any further--worked for me in an 06...fwiw

The lightest .308� LRX is 175g so �lighter-for-cal bullet� would mean a TTSX in the 130g to 168g range if keeping the bullet design as similar as possible. According to Barnes:

110g .308 TAC-TX = .166 SD / .289 BC
127g 6.5mm LRX = .257 SD / .468 BC
130g .308 TTSX = .196 SD / .350 BC
150g .308 TTSX = .226 SD / .420 BC
165g .308 TTSX = .248 SD / .442 BC
168g .308 TTSX = .253 SD / .470 BC
175g .308 LRX = .264 SD / .508 BC
180g .308 TTSX = .271 SD / .484 BC

I�m not sure what �slower velocities� means, but my hunting compadres and I have killed quite a few animals over the last few years with Barnes TTSX and MRX bullets weighing 100g to 180g and have yet to recover one. Most animals dropped straight down, others have taken a few steps at most. Ranges have varied from about 25 yards to hair under 400. During that time I�ve learned to trust the tipped Barnes bullets.

Any bullet can fail. Some will do so more often than others. I worry more about bullets coming apart at high velocity than failing to expand at low velocity.

Tipped Barnes bullets open at relatively low speeds. The 110g .308� TAC-TX are designed for the .300AAC Blackout which start out at around 2400fps. Videos show them expanding at 1900fps, not so much at 1300fps. Other photos on Barnes� web site show a 7mm 150g TTSX that expanded after impacting at a little over 1700fps. My own informal testing with water jugs leaves me with little concern about TTSX/MRX/TAC-TX expansion, but even so I prefer impact velocities above 2000fps as a rule of thumb for pointed bullets.

Using that admittedly arbitrary and conservative 2000fps limit, a 127g 6.5mm LRX , if launched at 2750fps would have an effective range of over 500 yards. If the velocity limit is lowered to 1800fps, the range increases to just under 700 yards. In 32 years of hunting Colorado big game, my three longest shots have been ~350 yards, ~400 yards and 487 yards. The vast majority of the rest have been under 300 yards. In short, I wouldn�t worry about a 127g 6.5 LRX expanding at the ranges at which I would use them.

So about the rare event when the bullet doesn�t expand at low velocity? In that event hydraulic displacement and temporary wound cavities will be minimal and the difference between the wound channels created by a .264� or .308� will be even more so. The 127g 6.5 has a higher SD than even a 168g .308 bullet. Whether that would translate to similar penetration or not only testing would tell. In any case, both would penetrate soft tissue pretty well and if heavy bone was encountered both would probably expand.

The 110g TAC-TX bullets from my .300AAC Blackout start out a bit under 2400fps. If launching a 127g 6.5 LRX at 2750fps, it will drop to 2400fps somewhere around 250 yards. Even hunting elk, deer and antelope in open sage, most of the shots my partners and I have taken have been under that range.

In short, the difference between a 6.5 127g LRX and a �lighter-for-cal bullet� in a .300 isn't something I would worry about

Nailed it. Velocity and RPM's.

theres a guy on here from colorado that uses a 260 rem sometimes for elk,and is quite sucessful.when i compare the the SD of a 30 cal and a 6.5 its easy to see why ya dont need a big caliber,but thats speaking for myself

Thanks for the information!

David

The OP's question was not limited to Barnes bullets.

To answer the OP's question, what's the twist rate on your barrel? It may be twisted such that it won't stabilize the heavier bullets. And there's no need for 200's or 180's anyway; if you're going to shoot the rifle much, do yourself a favor and go with 165's or 150's.



I can't follow your logic here in not wanting to hunt with a .30 caliber 150 or 165 at a higher velocity than a 6.5 127-grain bullet. The 150 or 165 will do fine on elk.

If I were in your shoes, I'd use the bullets that shoot well or if you don't want to use those pick a few different bullets in that range and see if you can get them to shoot in the WSM. No harm in doing that.

But elk season is getting close, so if you don't find a good combo for the WSM, hunt with the LRX and don't look back. Confidence in your shot placement is worth more than anything else. Shot placement is the most important thing, followed by bullet construction, then headstamp. The crappiest bullet (I'm not saying the LRX is crappy) will succeed with good shot placement.

As far as the LRX failing to open up, you could hunt for years and not have it happen to you. That was not my point.

The only reason I brought up the fact that monometals sometimes fail to open was the blanket statement by someone who's never used the bullet that there is no situation where the bullet wouldn't be as good as another bullet.

As with most sweeping all-inclusive statements, it's just not true.

smokepole �

Correct, the OP�s original questions was not limited to Barnes bullets. Nevertheless I specified �keeping the bullet design as similar as possible� and Barnes bullets to eliminate design and material variables as much as possible.

I don�t trust non-tipped monos to expand as reliably as tipped versions, nor do I expect copper and gilding metal monos to perform the same. Etc.

It's a 10 twist. The 165's are speer spitzer flat base bullets loaded to 2725fps and are a soft bullet. They regularly do not exit on white tail deer unless it's a perfect broadside shot. I would not use those on elk. The 150s are just a simple cup and core bullet and they are clocking 3250fps. Again, on anything but a perfect broadside shot with no ribs I wouldn't trust those on elk. They make enough mess of white tails.

I will give the 150gr ttsx in the vor-tx ammo a try and that will be my final attempt to take the 300 hunting for elk. My concern with the 150's is that them starting at 3300fps and shooting something close up petals will blow off. I've had that happen with 243, 257, 7mm bullets before pushed fast and hitting bones. I can see an elk taking an awfully long time to die if the petals are gone in the first few inches and the solid .30 cal shank keeps on going. I'm very confidant that the 127gr lrx starting 450fps slower will not have this problem.

Ideally I wanted a 200 part at 2900fps or a 180nab/btip at 3050 but it ain't going to happen.

I have killed over a dozen white tail (bucks up to 300lbs) and 3 black bears (300+) with barnes bullets going back to the original X in 243, 257 and 7mm and I've never had one not open. It happend, especially with the x and even tsx but since they put the tip on there that virtually eliminated that problem. I have zero doubts that 127 lrx will open out to 500 yards. I am just not 100% confident how deep it will penetrate especially if bones are hit. If that 150gr ttsx doesn't shoot then I'm bound to find out how the 127lrx will do as I'm out of time and patience with the 300.

Congrats! Ypu almost did it yourself!

Congrats! You almost did it yourself!

LMAO and congrats to you on your computer skills. They seem to be on par with your cognitive skills.

You seem to be saying that a simple cup and core bullet isn't good enough for elk, and that you need a "premium" or monometal bullet for more penetration?

If that's what gives you confidence, than by all means go with it. Just know that plenty of elk have been killed with simple cup and core bullets, without a hitch.

I am curious about the bullets you used on the bucks and bears though. Did you recover them, or did they pass through?

Hotcores? I've used them for many years and bagged plenty of deer and elk both with them in a 270 and 300 WSM. They're great bullets and highly reliable.

Take the 6.5 and go kill an elk while the rest pee off the bridge.

Personally I prefer fire hydrants. They get more responses.

I almost gagged when reading the responses. Especially this one. +100 on your response Smokepole.

I am not saying you need a premium. As I mentioned earlier I would have been perfectly happy with a 180btip.

I don't see the point in using a 165 speer (not a hot core. It's an old box and just says spitzer on it) that is soft and doesn't exit deer on an elk. The federal stuff is the cheap cup and core and one of those came unglued on a buck shoulder at 75 yards. No chance of me trying that on elk.

I did buy a box of vor-TX 150 ttsx today and you can turn the bullets in the necks with your fingers and the runout is laughable with my naked eye. So much for premium ammo. No returns on ammo. How convenient.

I have only recovered 2 monos. 3 if you count the muzzle loader barnes bullet. One a 100gr tsx from a 257 wby that penetrated front to back and 2 feet of spine also. No petals left on that one. Other was a 139gr gmx from a 7mm rm. Facing front leg bone, ribs, found in rear opposite ham muscle.

The [bleep] factory ammo tonight was the last straw for me. 127 lrx is what's going to be tested.

Sorry smoke pole. I should have read that better.
2 elk in 3 years s not a lot but it's some while using the Barnes bullet.
I just have hard time believing the bullet did not penetrate out the other Side at that close of a distance. 168 gr at 2650 MV, 100 yards and no bone. Ok. It is what it is.
Good luck this season.

Back to the original post-do you hand load? You must have a weird barrel if it won't shoot the Noslers. The first load that I made for a buddy's wsm shot the 200s into 3/4 inch at about 2850 fps. It is generally an easy caliber to load for, based on what I have read.

Have you tried the heavier 6.5 bullets? I am sure that your bullet will work, but personally, I would rather have the 140-class bullets in the 6.5 as a little more insurance for heavy bone.

Kman, shoot the LRXs and don't look back. My prognostication is, the bullet and headstamp will not be the reason you kill/don't kill an elk. Good luck, hope you have a good hunt.

Dre, no worries and good luck to you too. I'm heading out next Wednesday, opening day of the ML season is Saturday, gonna do a little fishing on the way up. Vacation time!!

I'll be shooting a 350-grain .50 caliber bullet at about 1550 MV. It's a bullet that a lot of guys on the internet will tell you is too soft for elk but it's the most accurate bullet I've found for my rifle and it has never failed me so that's what I shoot. That in a nutshell is my opinion of internet bullet advice. If you ask the guys who say it won't work how many elk they've shot with it, the answer is always zero. People who actually shoot elk with 'em like Saddlesore, don't seem to have those same problems. Go figure.

Good luck next week and have fun.
BTW, you can add me to the list of ML shooters who use that same defective bullet.

Good, make sure and post some pics. Bull tag this year?

Yes but late rifle, and early cow rifle. No ML tag this year.

Well, good luck. I have a cow tag, hoping to tag out early, put the meat on ice, and then do some serious fishing.

That's one thing I like about the ML season, the fishing's still good.

I'm mocking you you dumbphhuck. SO I'll pass on explaining that to you. As you simply wouldn't understand.

You'll pass on explaining it to me, as you're explaining it to me.

Can you explain that to me?

I wouldn't have any reservations using the 6.5 with the LRX. I have a 243 that shoots the 80 gr TTSX at 3415 fps that I'd take to the mountains in a heart beat. I have gotten over 26" of penetration at 100 yards when shooting milk jugs filled with water.

I recently purchased a 300 WSM and my gunsmith says I should look at the 165/168 gr bullets. Therefore, the 150 TTSX up to the 168 TSX will be the first I look at. I think your rifle is already telling you that it likely likes the lighter bullet weights.

I have zero issues with the mono metals loosing their petals either. I recently collected my first two 180 gr TSX bullets out of my 300 Win Mag at 3100 fps.

The first was a common reedbuck at roughly 100 yards shot middle of his back, splitting him in two while traveling down the spine coming to rest against the hide on his neck. The bullet lost all four of the petals and he dropped like a rock as imagined.

The second was a blesbok at 326 yards shot hard quartering towards, hit on point of shoulder, found against the hide after exiting his right rear hindquarter. That bullet travelled roughly four foot completely thru the animal and almost exited. The bullet only had one petal left.

Take the 6.5 and don't look back if you can't find a load for the 300 WSM.

Good luck!

I have killed lots of elk, none with a 6.5, nor will I. Your best load with a 180 or 200 gr in your 300 is far better for elk. Good luck, remember MOA is not necessary unless you are a long ways out there.

I've killed two elk with my 260 and 120 TTSXs. Not huge bulls but neither took a step.

~350 yards



~230 yards


I will admit to feeling a little under gunned sometimes but this setup hasn't let me down.

Great elk Nimrod. Very nice.

It is important to feel like the bullet is always going to meet the crosshairs hunting where the shots can be longer. But a 300 WSM with a 165 or 168 grain ttsx would seem a terrific elk rifle with few limitations, any 6.5 seems on the other end of the elk killing spectrum. Wait for that broadside under 300 yard shot and avoid angling through the vitals and heavy bones and it should work great.

I just prefer to keep more shot options open chasing after elk, sometimes you get lucky and get to shoot a big 800 lb bull instead of a 400 lb cow.

Kman wish you the best of luck in your hunt. 6.5's been killing elk and moose for a long time for many people. Way before anyone dreamed up monometals for hunting. If I had a 300WSM that would not shoot the premium bullets I had confidence in it would go down the road without me."Ideally I wanted a 200 part at 2900fps or a 180nab/btip at 3050 but it ain't going to happen".

They been selling 300 Winchester Magnums for over 50 years and they work great with 180 & 200 gr bullets. Again good luck. Magnum Man

Is it common for the 300 WSM to not like 180s?

I helped a friend sight in his with 180 accubonds and I was impressed with the 3000 FPS but not so much with the groups - about 1.5 inches was the best I saw from his model 70. I attributed that to his shooting skill but it could have been the rifle.

Just a quick update. Picked up another 300 and she shoots 150ttsx at 3325fps and 3" at 300. Don't have to worry about this anymore. Will post a report if I kill one.

Yeah it sounded like that last one was a lost cause. Third 30 mag in a year huh? No wonder you were frustrated. Well, third times the charm hopefully.

WSM or Win Mag?

Good luck on your hunt.