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Since you quoted my post I will attempt to explain.
First of all I never said the 375 or 9.3 were superior to anything, I said they met minimum requirements.
I do believe a 375 H&H topped with a 2-8 power scope is an ideal plainsgame rifle when hunting in a dangerous game area. A 300 grain bullet loaded to 2400-2500 FPS is flat shooting enough for an average shooter to take a 200-300 yard shot with ease and meets the minimum requirements for dangerous game. I have shot two buffalo with a 375. One required follow up and I put it down with my 470, another ran about 75 yards and piled up. While I know it works, it would not be my choice for elephant. One very important item to note is a 375 loaded to 24-2500 FPS is well within the pressures for which it was designed, even with today's brass and copper monolithic bullets.
I like the 45-70. With iron sights it is great primitive weapon for deer hunting in our state. I also never said the 45-70 or 470 Turnbull would not work in Africa. Also I will never argue that a 400 grain bullet at 1950 FPS will not work, although I think it is on the minimum end of the spectrum, especially in 45 caliber. It also misses the legal energy requirement by quite a bit. (so does the 9.3) My 450-400 3 1/4" shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2150 FPS and I would use it in Africa in a second, especially with CEB or NF bullets.
I am a bullet whore. I love the monolithic solids, TSX, CEB non-cons, etc. These bullets are loooooong, My concern, and it is MY concern, is reliability. I would not bring to Africa any hot rod round shooting way out of the parameters for which it was originally designed, especially for dangerous game. Pushing a 400 grain monolithic solid at 1900 FPS in 105 degree weather out of a 45-70 is asking for trouble IMO. I do test my equipment before leaving. I would have to check my round count but IIRC I have about 7-800 rounds through my 470 Nitro double testing bullets, testing reliability, and practicing. I really do believe in trusting my equipment.
All that being said I have lusted over one of Turnbull's 475s for a couple of years. I would love to hunt bison with one and would not hesitate to use it on Cape buffalo. I actually think it would be a fun hunt.
Last edited by Mike70560; 09/12/14.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,864
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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Since you quoted my post I will attempt to explain.
First of all I never said the 375 or 9.3 were superior to anything, I said they met minimum requirements.
I do believe a 375 H&H topped with a 2-8 power scope is an ideal plainsgame rifle when hunting in a dangerous game area. A 300 grain bullet loaded to 2400-2500 FPS is flat shooting enough for an average shooter to take a 200-300 yard shot with ease and meets the minimum requirements for dangerous game. I have shot two buffalo with a 375. One required follow up and I put it down with my 470, another ran about 75 yards and piled up. While I know it works, it would not be my choice for elephant. One very important item to note is a 375 loaded to 24-2500 FPS is well within the pressures for which it was designed, even with today's brass and copper monolithic bullets.
I like the 45-70. With iron sights it is great primitive weapon for deer hunting in our state. I also never said the 45-70 or 470 Turnbull would not work in Africa. Also I will never argue that a 400 grain bullet at 1950 FPS will not work, although I think it is on the minimum end of the spectrum, especially in 45 caliber. It also misses the legal energy requirement by quite a bit. (so does the 9.3) My 450-400 3 1/4" shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2150 FPS and I would use it in Africa in a second, especially with CEB or NF bullets.
I am a bullet whore. I love the monolithic solids, TSX, CEB non-cons, etc. These bullets are loooooong, My concern, and it is MY concern, is reliability. I would not bring to Africa any hot rod round shooting way out of the parameters for which it was originally designed, especially for dangerous game. Pushing a 400 grain monolithic solid at 1900 FPS in 105 degree weather out of a 45-70 is asking for trouble IMO. I do test my equipment before leaving. I would have to check my round count but IIRC I have about 7-800 rounds through my 470 Nitro double testing bullets, testing reliability, and practicing. I really do believe in trusting my equipment.
All that being said I have lusted over one of Turnbull's 475s for a couple of years. I would love to hunt bison with one and would not hesitate to use it on Cape buffalo. I actually think it would be a fun hunt. Good post and spot on.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Thanks jwp475.
The forums are supposed to be fun. Hunting is definitely fun. I enjoy every minute in the field no matter where or what I am hunting.
Hunt with what makes you happy. There is one caveat to that statement. When you are hunting DG you do have some responsibility to the PH, trackers, and game scouts. Wounded dangerous game caused by either bad shooting, poor bullet choice, admiring the shot instead of continuing to shoot, poor rifle or cartridge selection can get somebody killed or injured. In 2012 several PHs were hurt and two were killed by buffalo wounded by their client. I hunted late season in 2012 and I could see a little difference in the PHs in the way they approached hunting.
Some areas are much more difficult to hut than others and early season presents problems with heavy cover. Choose wisely, practice often, and most of all have fun.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 26
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2014
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Since you quoted my post I will attempt to explain.
First of all I never said the 375 or 9.3 were superior to anything, I said they met minimum requirements.
I do believe a 375 H&H topped with a 2-8 power scope is an ideal plainsgame rifle when hunting in a dangerous game area. A 300 grain bullet loaded to 2400-2500 FPS is flat shooting enough for an average shooter to take a 200-300 yard shot with ease and meets the minimum requirements for dangerous game. I have shot two buffalo with a 375. One required follow up and I put it down with my 470, another ran about 75 yards and piled up. While I know it works, it would not be my choice for elephant. One very important item to note is a 375 loaded to 24-2500 FPS is well within the pressures for which it was designed, even with today's brass and copper monolithic bullets.
I like the 45-70. With iron sights it is great primitive weapon for deer hunting in our state. I also never said the 45-70 or 470 Turnbull would not work in Africa. Also I will never argue that a 400 grain bullet at 1950 FPS will not work, although I think it is on the minimum end of the spectrum, especially in 45 caliber. It also misses the legal energy requirement by quite a bit. (so does the 9.3) My 450-400 3 1/4" shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2150 FPS and I would use it in Africa in a second, especially with CEB or NF bullets.
I am a bullet whore. I love the monolithic solids, TSX, CEB non-cons, etc. These bullets are loooooong, My concern, and it is MY concern, is reliability. I would not bring to Africa any hot rod round shooting way out of the parameters for which it was originally designed, especially for dangerous game. Pushing a 400 grain monolithic solid at 1900 FPS in 105 degree weather out of a 45-70 is asking for trouble IMO. I do test my equipment before leaving. I would have to check my round count but IIRC I have about 7-800 rounds through my 470 Nitro double testing bullets, testing reliability, and practicing. I really do believe in trusting my equipment.
All that being said I have lusted over one of Turnbull's 475s for a couple of years. I would love to hunt bison with one and would not hesitate to use it on Cape buffalo. I actually think it would be a fun hunt. Ok, that's a fair answer. The way it was put by another member was as if the two medium bore cartridges were head and shoulders above. I am not sure what the minimum is, as all kinds of things seem to make it, and some of it seems to be discretionary. I do not view the foot pounds measurement as a very good yard stick. I have no idea what it would take to stop it, but a 700 gr. bullet going 1600 fps comes in under the 4000 ft./lb. mark!  FWIW I have seen data for a 400 gr. at 2130 out of a Marlin; not sure I entirely believe it though. Especially out of my rifle! Nice choice for a rifle!
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
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The guy in this link hunts in Zambia. He was living in the States. I almost booked my first hunt with him, but could not get a high level of confidence with him. It does seem he has successfully hunted with the lever guns. One of his articles he discusses hunting elephant with NF cup point solids. That I will never understand, even if he killed an elephant with one. http://fortyfiveseventy.com/2014/04/27/african-guide-gun-matched-set/
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,576
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,576 |
Concur Mike. The Cup Point is NOT a SOLID. The "even if he killed an elephant with one" is not a valid argument on his part. I have no doubt he did it, just as I have no doubt it's been done with spears and while on the subject, liked your previous post very much. j
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"There are still a few of us graybeards left in the state, however, who are unwilling to sacrifice the marginal advantage offered by our .416s and 458s. When dealing with dangerous game as large, impressively quick and intelligent as brown bears any advantage can mean the difference between hiring a taxidermist or a surgeon. As anyone who has experience in mortal combat or even a dust-up on the school yard can tell you, stunning or dropping your adversary a fraction of a second quicker or keeping them down a second longer can be a tremendous advantage. It is the best I can offer to describe the elusive big-bore "knockdown power that hunters, soldiers and ballistitians have striven so long to quantify, and for the reason for the continual fascination of powerful, large-bore rifles."
'Buffalo is the one species where you can use a rifle that possesses real stopping power. Hit them with a .500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs, and they will stop, even if the shot isnt instantly fatal. It is quite impressive to see the way they rear up on taking a hit with a good soft point from one of these rounds. However, I have never seen a 470 Nitro Express or 458 Lott be any more effective than my 9.3.
Generally clients are advised to bring a 375 H&H, as they are most likely to shoot this better than something bigger, and then the PH doesnt have to shoot their game for them. Without a doubt a well placed first shot negates the need for stopping power. For the PH, though, the choice isnt always obvious. A few of us have always used a relatively smallbore-a 9.3 or 375- but most have gone to the 458 Lott. I can see no advantage in this, however as i get older (and slower) and the ammunition supply has greatly improved, I am having a good look at the Blaser R8 in 500 Jeffery."
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Rattler,
Who wrote the above quote?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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two quotes from two people....top paragraph is Phil Shoemaker, the bottom two are 'Ganyana'
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire Regular
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Ganyana (Don Heath) also wrote this:
"On our elephant culls (which I attended as the research officer) a .470 .500NE, or even a .458 Lott putts an elephant down so much more quickly than even a regular .458. In thick cover, where you may easily only be able to see for a shot at a range of a couple of paces, the margin of safety offered by a big bore is very significant."
Here he states a 458 Lott puts an elephant down much more quickly than a 458Win. But in the quote above there is no difference between a 9.3 and a 458 Lott.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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i just copied verbatim out of a recent article of his entitled 'Stopping Power' in a Wolfe publication
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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I will not say I know Ganyana, but we met at one of the shows. He is/was a fully licensed Professional Hunter in Zimbabwe.
The seemingly contradictory quotes show even the expert writers cannot always agree, even with their self.
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Campfire Ranger
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i enjoy his writing. wish there was more in the states.
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire Regular
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Gentlemen;
I have had a marlin guide gun for over a decade and really like having a "large" lever gun. Converting the rifle to .470 Turnbull would give me a bigger bullet for cape buffalo and fill my ongoing " need" of a large lever gun.
Thanks again
GRF
So GRF, now that you most likely have way more information than you probably ever thought you would get or need, when are you sending the Marlin off for conversion?
How many obama supporters does it take to change a light bulb? None, they prefer to remain in the dark.
The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.
George Bernard Shaw
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Regular
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OP
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Paladin; I have enjoyed the great variety of opinions and perspectives. One statements that resonates was the one about speaking with the PH that you will be hunting with.
Should I close the business I need to for the buffalo hunt to become a reality I will then go about finalizing the outfitter / PH. Once that is done I will discuss rifle optiobs with him
Thanks to all who participated in the conversation, I learned a good deal
Thanks GRF
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,238
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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These threads are always entertaining, speaking lever rifles the c.o.a.l. length is always a major concern.
That being the case, bullets of 500 grains plus or minus a bit are used from .458" to .512", my '86 Turnbull 50-110 WCF fires 525 gr WFNGC bullets at 1855 fps, my old Marlin Cowboy in 45-70 threw a 525 gr Beartooth piledriver to 1755 fps.
Of like construction, bullets from the 45-70 will out penetrate the larger bores, bullet SD is still king when all things metallurgical and velocity are matched.
IMHO, once you reach .458" there isn't a critter alive that will know the difference.
Trump Won!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Maybe you guys should come up with some agreed upon definitions of words or phrases before these threads carry on.
Example:
Killing
Stopping
blood trail
Sport hunting
Poaching/ culling ( as in the case of Bell)
Then there is the hype in Marketing a product, wow that gets things way off track!
The definitions of stopping power or recreational hunting power is being confused with another mans opinion of those same events.
I've been with this business 22 years now in person up close and directly involved. I've seen 1000's of animals harvested by every type of archery handgun rifle black powder, and knife!
The circumstances involved in most of the animals shot differ from one to the next. Enough that there is not consistent scientific capacity to compare or evaluate them equally against one another. Angles, distance, temperatures, elevations, etc etc.
There are some consistencies that remain when you strip away the emotion, the unique or odd situations, or for sure the brand loyalty.
Those consistencies are oddly still the same today as they were 100 years ago.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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