Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .470 Turnbull

Thank you for the warm welcome.

I got the story a little mixed up, but it was done with a Marlin 45-70 (as the guys say). Pretty sure it was the Guide Gun version. You are correct on the author. The bullet did pass through 4 shoulders(!) and was recovered under the offside skin.

The short version (I think) was found in Nosler #6. Unlikely that the Noslers were used, as all they seem to have is a not too hard RNSP in 300 gr.

I tend to believe the other fellow that is saying it was a cast 405. A good alloyed FN is pretty much the best monolithic for the job....

You have a great season, too.

I see we have a couple things in common...

The Marlins certainly are capably of taking optics, if one wishes.

Thanks! From just up the road... 5 or so hours IIRC. Crazy thing is a couple guys drive up here to work!

Well it might not be a 45-70, but it is certainly nothing in which to stick the incautious finger! A cape buffalo is one of the few animals where the penetration might fall on the short side. Maybe. And that can be improved with a 350 gr. bullet.

I believe Roosevelt relegated his .405 for his favourite lion cartridge. Not to mean it was barely adequate for anything tougher.

im a full blown Africa nut as anyone thats talked books with me knows, ive got around 100 volumes on hunting in Africa on the shelves.....im not one to pick and choose guys that made my point....if i look over my collection as a whole, with the exception of guys like Baker and Selous who bridged the blackpowder/smokeless eras most anyone that spent any real time hunting over there did not go from larger calibers to smaller....just about everyone that started with lighter or rounds like the 405 decided to go heavier, more often than not cause they had some critter put holes in their hide....

i have no doubt that most of the time a 45-70 with heavy loads or a 405 Win with the right bullets will do you well, especially if you throat that 405 to seat out 400 grain bullets...hell i wouldnt hesitate if offered to hunt with them but the fact is they are on the low end of adequate for critters that will kill you if given the chance.....and they would not be my choice if i was facing these critters without backup...

well other than i always thought for someone used to a lever gun a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 stoked with warm 300 grain hollow points might make a damn effective gun for following up leopard....

Most guys put scopes on their Marlins. I know I can't use irons worth crap.

I like the idea of a fast handling lever for dangerous game. Always wanted to go after something really big with mine.

If it works then it works pure and simple.

I would have no qualms (well maybe, just the usual ones) about going after heavy game with a hot loaded 45-70. There are calibers that offer more foot pounds, more momentum, more diameter, and heavier bullets. Not a whole lot of them can offer the speed of handling and follow up shots though. Not to mention topping up the mag without dropping or opening anything.

You'll have to refresh my memory; did Karamojo Bell switch to a heavy gun? Of course he killed more heavy game before getting his pants on than most of us will in a lifetime.

For a leopard that's a heavy gun. If I was going to follow one up, I think I would want something I could shoot even quicker, or a buckshot load.

if you actually read very much on African hunting it aint that simple, hence the reason most toss the small stuff for larger if they do it long enough, eventually just good enough gets you in the hospital if your lucky or the grave if you aint....

yeah bell went somewhat heavier but how he hunted elephant also changed.....a large part of the reason he used light rifles was how he hunted which is alot different than how its done today or even towards the end of his career....

like i said in a normal modern safari i wouldnt mind hunting with a hot loaded 45-70 if it was handed to me, but its not the gun i would choose if i was to swap places with the PH and my job became body guard over hunter.....

IndyCA35,

My apologies for expecting anyone to read between the lines in my first post. It should be noted that I said "Generally speaking, I think you will find that most folks will say you need 500 grs. at 2,150 to 2,400 fps".

I was expecting this the go the way of The-.45/70-Doesn't-Belong-In-Africa argument, regardless of the success experienced by some who chose to use the .45/70 in Africa.

The quote below in my second post is my opinion and reflects your first caveat as well as your recommendation of FP bullets.


You might also want to read Pierre van der Walt's thoughts on iron verses optics. While he does concede that optics are useful, especially with aging eyes and first shot placement, he makes a compelling argument for iron sights and dangerous game considering the range most DG is taken.

I only have one buffalo hunt under my belt so the following is only from my perspective based on extremely limited experience.

Regarding the use of a scoped rifle and taking other game while hunting buffalo, no other game was even considered so long as buffalo were in sight regardless of range. To forgo buffalo for any other game never came to mind so the use of a scoped rifle was never an issue.

For a one gun safari, the scoped .375 may be considered by some as ideal, but the OP was about whether a .470 Turnbull was adequate for buffalo, and in my opinion it is. Prior to the acquisition of the rifle I took to Africa, my choice was an 1895 Marlin in .45/70, and it will probably go along next time.

By the way, my first shot on buffalo was with a solid and it worked splendidly, against all recommendations. If I had it all to do over again, would I use a solid first? You bet, but not just any solid.

Sharpsguy,

I have read your posts in the past and respect you. As I understand you put a lot of time and effort in shooting. IIRC you hunted Africa with iron sites and took animals at something like 500 yards, impressive.

This is one time I have to diagree with you. I performed quite a bit of testing similar to Garret's. I was very methodical and tried to be as consistant as possible.

I also read Garret's test and my results were quite a bit different.

With a 458 Lott I was shooting through 72" of wet newsprint and 3 two by sixes. The bullets were exiting.

With my 470 I was shooting through 72" of wet newsprint and the bullet would stop in the second two by six.

These test were performed with North Fork FN solids.

I also shot reduced loads with different bullets in the 470. IIRC the velocity went as low as 1600 FPS. Penetration was less on the lower velocities.

A video from one of the tests.

[img]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135/Mike70560/th_M4H011532.mp4[/img]

IMO the 470 Turnbull is adequate, as is the 45-70, however I feel there are much better choices. If you like the lever gun have you considered the 475 Turnbull?

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence as to which round is better or even adequate. Hunt with what makes you happy, you are paying the ticket.

I have shot nine buffalo with no backup shots using a .375 H&H, 416 Rem. and 470 Nitro. Two DRT with the 470, and the one that required the most shots was also with the 470. All worked fine, as I am sure many other rounds would have.

Mike70560,

Thanks for posting your test results. Interesting video as well.

John Linebaugh used to do similar penetration tests during his seminars, the results of which can be seen in the Linebaugh Test Results. He used the same media, although a bit different setup as there were no boards, but large bovine bone set behind the first 6-8" of the soaked news print in some of the tests.

It is interesting to note some handgun loads penetrated more than some rifles.

According to Turnbull's website the .475 does not fit well n the Marlin action.

GRF,

If you like the Marlin and want to use it for Cape buffalo, send it off and have it converted. If you don't, you will always regret it and will most likely have it done in the future anyway.

I'm way too close to 60 and have to wear glasses. I shot buffalo, warthog, blue wildebeest, zebra, and baboon all with open sights without a problem. Bow hunters routinely take African game at close range. But with a Marlin, adding optics isn't an issue.

If you are going to Africa to experience Africa, have the best time of your life, and fulfill the dream of a lifetime, take the .470 TB. If you are going with a list of animals you have to take and that is your main goal, use something else with a bolt and scope.

Is the .470 TB an ideal buffalo round? No. Will it kill a buffalo? Yes.

The best reason to use a .470 TB on buffalo is because you want to use one on buffalo.

I have one of the Ruger #1's in .475:



A few folks got to shoot it at our Quemado gathering, and no one seemed disabled by the gun.

Here's a thread on it:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9163293#Post9163293

Pat,

How did you manage to catch the cat licking it's chops while staring at your rifle? Looks a bit odd.

Got to shoot that once and wish I had shot it some more. Dang accurate. Trigger pull was a bit surprising, but it should be.

pure dumb luck; she has a knack for making ridiculous faces with a camera around.

After I work up the heavies, I'll see about some cast bullet loads, including the ones you kindly gave me. Although it can approach a .470 Nitro in power I suspect long term I'll run lighter loads in it. I have some 275gr Speers that were intended for the .480 Ruger. I imagine they could make ludicrous speed out of the #1

Good answer. Why does anyone pick any rifle, or cartridge. 90% of the time, its just cause it floats yer' boat.

I do have a question on the custom chambered levers, though. What are they designed to handle, pressure wise? And why is a the .470 appear to come in under the capability of a 45-70 with a stiff handload, when it has a greater surface area in the base of the bullet to push against? Is the hoop area thinned out too much to handle the pressures that would be acceptable in 45-70?

I would think not, as the .50 Alaskan seems to be a step up on the power scale.