Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer-Message for Elmer Keith

This is funny, especially on a forum with so many fast twist 22 caliber supporters...

comes down to it, doesnt much matter if you listened to Kieth or O'Conner and followed either ones advice you would kill a pile of critters.....no single answer to killing an animal....

I'm reading "Hell, I was There!" now - it's a very interesting read indeed. If there were more than one of him anywhere, I'd surely like to read his books as well.

I have no dog in the EK argument, and will only say I disagree with him on the adequate coyote statement.

The quote above kind of reminds me of another on this forum.

Huntz,

You might be interested in an article that will be appearing in HANDLOADER in 6-8 weeks.

I had an article published back in the 80's called "Who won the cartridge debate" and concluded there was no debate towards the end because both and all were using high velocity rounds, the only difference being the bullets weights being used with same results on same game being achieved.

I've often wondered if it was the disparate personalities of Keith and O'Connor that fueled the debate as much as the cartridges they eschewed. It seems obvious that since both men were extremely accomplished hunters with their desired equipment, arguing that one's choice was somehow 'better', or more capable, or more appropriate than that of the other is absurd.

Yeah, I see it more as two separate camps of personality devotees. It looks like that part of outdoor writing is long gone, as there are so many gun writers now, and very few reach the status that would allow for such devotion/division.

Anyone ever consider that magazine editors pushed the debate to keep or gain readership, and that O'Connor and Keith actually got along?

There was a 3rd entity called Weatherby. Maybe this blended the two because Keith finished his career with truncated Weatherby cases and velicites in the .270 range after all.

I am re-reading JO'C's "The Hunting Rifle" at present and he was extremely comfortable with his opinions and status as he saw it, within the writing community. I am ok with that but also enjoy much of Keith's work.

I don't think most would agree with everything said but as long as you get something out of it even if it is something that strengthens your own opinion, that's ok too.

I certainly didn't know either Keith or O'Connor. I have read several books that each man wrote and greatly admire them both.

I think JOC theories about rifles with stood the test of time more than Keiths.

Who even cares? I have never bought a rifle and shot any game or targets with that gun because of what I read in some magazine or book. The sad thing is that no cartridge will live or die by it's merits alone, most likely it's survival is due to perception of printed media more than actual validation in the field...

^^^^^This exactly.

Mostly true. Totally true in making them commercialized.


I wish it was written more on how EK and Lyman went back and
forth on bullet mould designs. He did know his stuff. All from real world knowledge gained. He did not even have a dial up connection to the interweb.


Oh, and his published loads were HOT,HOT, HOT!

Wow!

Here we are, long after both are gone, re-hashing their old arguments. Now, that's success from any author's standpoint. to be remembered and quoted long after you've left this Earth.

So, they were both at the top of their games, legacies ongoing.

And, although from the same era, they were so different, representing very contrasting backgrounds. JOC was a polished college professor, Elmer was a cowboy/guide. Both advanced the science and art of shooting, both had/have serious followers of their various schools of thought.

I saw Elmer at the 1970 NRA Convention in New Orleans where I was attending school. He was short with his big hat. He was very cordial to those around him. I was at the Ruger booth, Mr. Vogel, Bill Ruger's son-in-law was there. Elmer walked up and was looking at the newly released Security Six. Elmer pointed it, looked at it and gave Mr. Vogel the OK to produce it. "Wrap it up", he said... Mr. Vogel smiled and was most gracious to Elmer. Whether or not Ruger needed Elmer's stamp of approval to produce the Security Six, they got it...

JOC was also there and seemed more aloof than Elmer, but cordial as well. He just had an air about him that permeated his space. To me, they were both "rock stars" at that NRA Convention, just handled themselves a bit differently. I can't see JOC telling Mr. Vogel to "wrap up" a new rifle project. I don't think he would have been that forward or presumptious. But, he could be presumptious, just a bit smoother at it than Elmer, IMO.

DF

That's right. What the heck does it matter what anybody has written about anything, or indeed any sort of human experience other than our own?

That's why so many people personally invented the same two cartridges called the .270 Winchester and .338 Winchester Magnums, in their home workshops, on machines they made from scratch without any previous knowledge of machinery, metals, or chemistry. And then built riflescopes to put on top of their personally-built .270's and .338's (that just happen to use cartridges practically identical to millions of other .270's and .338's) without any knowledge of glass-making, much less optical priciples.

Well, maybe that's a little extreme. But did you just decide to buy a .270 Winchester out of the blue one day? (Yes, I know you own at least one.) Without ever hearing about the cartridge before? Or had you previously heard about the .270, somewhere, somehow? Maybe it was in a free Winchester ammo catalog you picked up at the store. You just ran down the list of ballistic numbers and thought, hey, that .270 might work!

I keep running into people (some of them even in the gun writing business) who apparently think they learned everything they needed to know about hunting and shooting from personal trial and error. And many of them get angry when somebody else even mentions the possibility that some gun writer, or ammunition designer, or even any human, anywhere had any influence on their decisions.

Yes, gun rags and writers play a part in what we choose to use, even if we never open one of the magazines, along with 1000 other sources of information. That's because human knowledge is passed down from one generation to the next through words and numbers. Otherwise we'd be living in trees and caves and hoping somebody would invent fire so we wouldn't have to eat raw food.

So you agree that a 270 is an adequate coyote round?

Nope, rockchucks are its limit. Those darn thin-jacketed 130's blow up on coyote shoulders.

Well stated, John, and so true.

As famously penned by John Donne in "No Man is an Island", we're all dependant on our fellow inhabitants of this Earth and those who have gone before.

DF

I can't believe that everyone is skirting the 'elephant in the room'.

No one has yet even mentioned how gay the .270 is...