Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Who was not influenced by Jack or Elmer?

With all the comments on another thread, (mine included) I realized that I was not influenced by them, as my opinions were determined and set before I discovered them. In fact I never heard of Jack O'Connor until after he was dead.

My first read of his work was a publication put out by Guns and Ammo after his death. Prior to that, I never heard or read a single word of his and by then was already "closer" to his camp for general hunting, but also a leaning towards Elmer with a growing passion for larger bore rifles, albeit with larger doses of velocity than traditionally associated with bigger bores.

In my earlier days, Aussies were using mil-surp rifles and smaller caliber cartridges like the .222, .22/250 and .243 with a .270 considered a big rifle, a .30/06 quite rare unless you ventured into sambar country and Aussies tended to step up to the .375 and to a lesser degree the .458 for bigger game.

A door survey I conducted at an SCI convention many years back determined that the .338 handloaded with 250gn Partitions was by a long way, far ahead of anything else with international hunters.

Most Aussies tended to self determine their needs and only commonly read or agreed with reviews of what they were already using again, through self determination. If you covered "their" cartridge, they bought the magazine. It was commonly called "the flick test" but flipping through the pages on the news stand to "audition" the publication. The 1980's is where the US publications started to become more common and my generation was already an opinionated bunch by then.

Not influenced per se, but learned things from both of them. Elmer: watch the wind, above all else, watch the wind while hunting. JOC: Find a good rest,be sure of your shot and put the bullet, no matter what size, where it belongs.


I was influenced by Bell and Corbett.

I learned how to hit stuff at long range with a handgun directly from Elmer Keith's writings on that subject.

Jack O'Connor's preaching over and over "it's not what you hit'em with, it's where you hit'em" was a major influence on my opinion of hunting rifle calibers and my concentration on field marksmanship. Or as he quoted an Indian guide as saying, "any gun good gun, shootum good." I have observed this to be true on almost every occasion where I've shot and successfully killed or merely wounded big or small game. My sig line indicates my agreement with his philosophy.

JOC - his influence on me was mostly about .270, .30'06, and later his comments on the .280Rem.

Some of the sheep & elk hunting stories were truly formative in my adolescence.

Keith, not so much

Not me, only because they were before my time.

I started reading O'Connor at around age 12. Don't remember exactly when, but paid for a subscription to Outdoor Life with the first money from my first steady job (a paper route) at that age. But also read a lot of other gun writers, so O'Connor didn't stand out until a few years later, due to his writing style, especially in some of his hunting stories.

I didn't read any Elmer until my early 20's, and one of the first articles I remember had a line in it something like this: "I don't consider any bullet under .33 caliber or 250 grains fully adequate for our fine Idaho elk and mule deer." And I thought: Who is this loony tune?

But as I got older I started appreciating Elmer more, as he was also a fine story-teller, though not as polished as O'Connor. Keith also always mentioned the meat acquired during his hunts, which also appealed to me.

Have used the supposed favorite cartridges of both men considerably, and have considerable appreciation for both viewpoints.

I always bought Outdoor Life every month and read everything O'Connor wrote. His stories of Africa, the Yukon and India amazed me. I didn't start reading Elmer until I was in my 20's but once I started I read everything from him I could find. They both had strong views and were products of their times and life experiences. The letters of their squabbles bothered me, seemed more like two grade schoolers than Icons.

Aussie gun writer,

Your mention of Australia is amusing. Most of us had forgotten it existed and heard that guns are banned there now.

No, I wasn't influenced by either one. Although I did read some of O'Connor, I didn't really appreciate his writing at the time. I cut my teeth on Bob Milek, Clair Rees, Layne Simpson, Dave Hetzler, John Wooters, Bob Hagel, Craig Boddington, and even Clay Harvey. These were the guys writing in Guns and Ammo and the Shooting Times when I started.

I was greatly influenced by both men, but moreso by O'Connor than Keith. I started reading them at an early age, but did not have a subscription. I read magazines in two places, the local doctor's office and at a local drug store that had outdoor magazines, including Outdoor Life. My dad would have delivered a litter of horned toads at the thought of spending money on magazines. As I grew older, and gained experience, I learned that based upon my accumulating pool of experience, I found that O'Connor's writings mirrored mine much moreso than did Keith's. That could be due, in large measure, to the fact that I used much better bullets than were available to either man when they were amassing much of their experiences. I was a big fan of Nosler partition bullets until I found Bitterroot bullets, and then used them to the exclusion of all others for hunting, when I could get them. Partitions then became my fall-back bullets. I got my first .270 in the mid-sixties and haven't been without at least one ever since. I suppose that O'Connor influenced my decision to get my first .270, but after that, my experiences with the cartridge was the major influencing factor to me. It worked very well for me and one lesson my dad taught me very early on was that if it wasn't broken, don't fix it! I did not find that the .270 needed fixing.

As far as the men themselves went, I never had the pleasure of meeting O'Connor, but I did meet and spend a very pleasurable hour or so with Mr. Keith. I found him to be personable, outgoing, friendly and entertaining. I have known many people that knew Mr. O'Connor very well, and have spent considerable time with most of them. They told me basically that he was not nearly so outgoing as I found Keith to be, and that he didn't make friends easily. He was somewhat more aloof, and he even wrote about it in one of his books. Once he got to know someone though, they report he was as good a friend as anyone could want.

Both men were highly opinionated. Personally, I admire that trait and don't think much of folks who aren't. I believe the "feud" between the two men was somewhat exaggerated. I think that, down deep, O'Connor admired old Elmer, and he as much as said so in some of his writings. I doubt that Elmer reciprocated however.

Were we influenced by those two men? I suspect that all shooters and hunters were influenced by both men, whether we know it or not. I also suspect that their influence will remain for a long time to come.

I read both and enjoyed the contrast. It helps to see both sides of an argument. I probably enjoyed Keith more. I especially liked his hand gunning articles and his ideas on reloading big bore pistols.

i really wasnt but im one of the younger guys here at 32.....though my first real hunting rifle i bought myself was a 270 its cause it was on sale at the local hardware store when i had the cash at 15....granted one of my first rifle books was JOC's Book of the Rifle but i considered it an old book i picked up at a garage sale for a buck and actually had the rifle bought first only started reading Kieth relatively recently cause ive not run across his books until recently.....JOC's books are everywhere in used book stores compared to Kieth's which are more uncommon and often command a premium and i was a poor kid and young adult....would rather read Kieth than JOC, prefer Kieth's writing style

Like the whopper that Aussies drink Fosters, which is considered "fly spray", most stories I hear of Aussieland are simply not true or grossly exaggerated.
John

Jack and Elmer would have died in poverty waiting for me to buy their writing...

I mostly got here and read them after their time as stories of how it was.

As a later and only casual reader of them both, I got an impression that most of their differences still stemmed from different starting points. Even later as hunters, shooters, and writers of great experience and expertise; Keith remained a large bit the cowboy guide that might have guided O'Connor the 'dude' client that he a small bit remained.

John we've moved on from fly spray and now generously refer to Fosters as horse p!ss.


Col Allison and Nick Harvey were my boyhood influences in Aussie gun rags. Col for his love and knowledge of fine customs and Nick via the sheer volume of his experience and technical expertise. He also seemed practically minded as well.

Never heard of O'Connor or Keith until - like you - my ideology had been set. More recently I've found Craig Boddington a no-BS writer who's ethos seems compatible with my own.

I really admire John Barsness for his honest writing and accessibility.

Recently I read "Hell, I Was There!" and would like to get my hands on some O'Connor stuff.


As an aside I'm still trawling through several feet of 80s to 90s era Aus Shooters Journals and enjoying your work all over again!

Regarding JOC's reported aloofness -

Since about 94% of all shooters I've ever met have "hey, you stand there and listen to me talk non-stop about me" syndrome, with particular emphasis on the "Igotta" and "Ihadda" subcategories, I can't say as I blame him one iota...

Tsquare, I think you are right. My reading is that J O'C could make a little bit of fun of himself, I don't see that in Elmer's writing.(haven't read it all, so may have missed something)

The one thing I did read, was one of Elmer's "friends" (Truman somebody?) trying to instigate, or keep alive a feud, real or imagined. God save all of us from friends like that.

Sycamore

p/s I'm more on the JOC side, although I've never owned a 270. Had a couple of .280s, and I've read "what one will do, the other will do".

Since my two favorite CF rifle cartridges are the 270 Winchester and the 375 H&H, I figure they both got to me.