Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Who was not influenced by Jack or Elmer?

With all the comments on another thread, (mine included) I realized that I was not influenced by them, as my opinions were determined and set before I discovered them. In fact I never heard of Jack O'Connor until after he was dead.

My first read of his work was a publication put out by Guns and Ammo after his death. Prior to that, I never heard or read a single word of his and by then was already "closer" to his camp for general hunting, but also a leaning towards Elmer with a growing passion for larger bore rifles, albeit with larger doses of velocity than traditionally associated with bigger bores.

In my earlier days, Aussies were using mil-surp rifles and smaller caliber cartridges like the .222, .22/250 and .243 with a .270 considered a big rifle, a .30/06 quite rare unless you ventured into sambar country and Aussies tended to step up to the .375 and to a lesser degree the .458 for bigger game.

A door survey I conducted at an SCI convention many years back determined that the .338 handloaded with 250gn Partitions was by a long way, far ahead of anything else with international hunters.

Most Aussies tended to self determine their needs and only commonly read or agreed with reviews of what they were already using again, through self determination. If you covered "their" cartridge, they bought the magazine. It was commonly called "the flick test" but flipping through the pages on the news stand to "audition" the publication. The 1980's is where the US publications started to become more common and my generation was already an opinionated bunch by then.

Not influenced per se, but learned things from both of them. Elmer: watch the wind, above all else, watch the wind while hunting. JOC: Find a good rest,be sure of your shot and put the bullet, no matter what size, where it belongs.


I was influenced by Bell and Corbett.

I learned how to hit stuff at long range with a handgun directly from Elmer Keith's writings on that subject.

Jack O'Connor's preaching over and over "it's not what you hit'em with, it's where you hit'em" was a major influence on my opinion of hunting rifle calibers and my concentration on field marksmanship. Or as he quoted an Indian guide as saying, "any gun good gun, shootum good." I have observed this to be true on almost every occasion where I've shot and successfully killed or merely wounded big or small game. My sig line indicates my agreement with his philosophy.

JOC - his influence on me was mostly about .270, .30'06, and later his comments on the .280Rem.

Some of the sheep & elk hunting stories were truly formative in my adolescence.

Keith, not so much

Not me, only because they were before my time.

I started reading O'Connor at around age 12. Don't remember exactly when, but paid for a subscription to Outdoor Life with the first money from my first steady job (a paper route) at that age. But also read a lot of other gun writers, so O'Connor didn't stand out until a few years later, due to his writing style, especially in some of his hunting stories.

I didn't read any Elmer until my early 20's, and one of the first articles I remember had a line in it something like this: "I don't consider any bullet under .33 caliber or 250 grains fully adequate for our fine Idaho elk and mule deer." And I thought: Who is this loony tune?

But as I got older I started appreciating Elmer more, as he was also a fine story-teller, though not as polished as O'Connor. Keith also always mentioned the meat acquired during his hunts, which also appealed to me.

Have used the supposed favorite cartridges of both men considerably, and have considerable appreciation for both viewpoints.

I always bought Outdoor Life every month and read everything O'Connor wrote. His stories of Africa, the Yukon and India amazed me. I didn't start reading Elmer until I was in my 20's but once I started I read everything from him I could find. They both had strong views and were products of their times and life experiences. The letters of their squabbles bothered me, seemed more like two grade schoolers than Icons.

Aussie gun writer,

Your mention of Australia is amusing. Most of us had forgotten it existed and heard that guns are banned there now.

No, I wasn't influenced by either one. Although I did read some of O'Connor, I didn't really appreciate his writing at the time. I cut my teeth on Bob Milek, Clair Rees, Layne Simpson, Dave Hetzler, John Wooters, Bob Hagel, Craig Boddington, and even Clay Harvey. These were the guys writing in Guns and Ammo and the Shooting Times when I started.

I was greatly influenced by both men, but moreso by O'Connor than Keith. I started reading them at an early age, but did not have a subscription. I read magazines in two places, the local doctor's office and at a local drug store that had outdoor magazines, including Outdoor Life. My dad would have delivered a litter of horned toads at the thought of spending money on magazines. As I grew older, and gained experience, I learned that based upon my accumulating pool of experience, I found that O'Connor's writings mirrored mine much moreso than did Keith's. That could be due, in large measure, to the fact that I used much better bullets than were available to either man when they were amassing much of their experiences. I was a big fan of Nosler partition bullets until I found Bitterroot bullets, and then used them to the exclusion of all others for hunting, when I could get them. Partitions then became my fall-back bullets. I got my first .270 in the mid-sixties and haven't been without at least one ever since. I suppose that O'Connor influenced my decision to get my first .270, but after that, my experiences with the cartridge was the major influencing factor to me. It worked very well for me and one lesson my dad taught me very early on was that if it wasn't broken, don't fix it! I did not find that the .270 needed fixing.

As far as the men themselves went, I never had the pleasure of meeting O'Connor, but I did meet and spend a very pleasurable hour or so with Mr. Keith. I found him to be personable, outgoing, friendly and entertaining. I have known many people that knew Mr. O'Connor very well, and have spent considerable time with most of them. They told me basically that he was not nearly so outgoing as I found Keith to be, and that he didn't make friends easily. He was somewhat more aloof, and he even wrote about it in one of his books. Once he got to know someone though, they report he was as good a friend as anyone could want.

Both men were highly opinionated. Personally, I admire that trait and don't think much of folks who aren't. I believe the "feud" between the two men was somewhat exaggerated. I think that, down deep, O'Connor admired old Elmer, and he as much as said so in some of his writings. I doubt that Elmer reciprocated however.

Were we influenced by those two men? I suspect that all shooters and hunters were influenced by both men, whether we know it or not. I also suspect that their influence will remain for a long time to come.

I read both and enjoyed the contrast. It helps to see both sides of an argument. I probably enjoyed Keith more. I especially liked his hand gunning articles and his ideas on reloading big bore pistols.

i really wasnt but im one of the younger guys here at 32.....though my first real hunting rifle i bought myself was a 270 its cause it was on sale at the local hardware store when i had the cash at 15....granted one of my first rifle books was JOC's Book of the Rifle but i considered it an old book i picked up at a garage sale for a buck and actually had the rifle bought first only started reading Kieth relatively recently cause ive not run across his books until recently.....JOC's books are everywhere in used book stores compared to Kieth's which are more uncommon and often command a premium and i was a poor kid and young adult....would rather read Kieth than JOC, prefer Kieth's writing style

Like the whopper that Aussies drink Fosters, which is considered "fly spray", most stories I hear of Aussieland are simply not true or grossly exaggerated.
John

Jack and Elmer would have died in poverty waiting for me to buy their writing...

I mostly got here and read them after their time as stories of how it was.

As a later and only casual reader of them both, I got an impression that most of their differences still stemmed from different starting points. Even later as hunters, shooters, and writers of great experience and expertise; Keith remained a large bit the cowboy guide that might have guided O'Connor the 'dude' client that he a small bit remained.

John we've moved on from fly spray and now generously refer to Fosters as horse p!ss.


Col Allison and Nick Harvey were my boyhood influences in Aussie gun rags. Col for his love and knowledge of fine customs and Nick via the sheer volume of his experience and technical expertise. He also seemed practically minded as well.

Never heard of O'Connor or Keith until - like you - my ideology had been set. More recently I've found Craig Boddington a no-BS writer who's ethos seems compatible with my own.

I really admire John Barsness for his honest writing and accessibility.

Recently I read "Hell, I Was There!" and would like to get my hands on some O'Connor stuff.


As an aside I'm still trawling through several feet of 80s to 90s era Aus Shooters Journals and enjoying your work all over again!

Regarding JOC's reported aloofness -

Since about 94% of all shooters I've ever met have "hey, you stand there and listen to me talk non-stop about me" syndrome, with particular emphasis on the "Igotta" and "Ihadda" subcategories, I can't say as I blame him one iota...

Tsquare, I think you are right. My reading is that J O'C could make a little bit of fun of himself, I don't see that in Elmer's writing.(haven't read it all, so may have missed something)

The one thing I did read, was one of Elmer's "friends" (Truman somebody?) trying to instigate, or keep alive a feud, real or imagined. God save all of us from friends like that.

Sycamore

p/s I'm more on the JOC side, although I've never owned a 270. Had a couple of .280s, and I've read "what one will do, the other will do".

Since my two favorite CF rifle cartridges are the 270 Winchester and the 375 H&H, I figure they both got to me.

I wasn't influenced by either, but I'm a little younger than a few in this crowd.

I did always like Bob Milek when I was a lad.

Milek was a good guy...nutz and bolts and no BS.

Both men influenced me. While they had different opinions, Each had a great deal of experience. Early in one of his books. O'Connor wrote something about opinions and advised the reader to "pick your expert." He was, no doubt, the better writer of the two, but I enjoyed reading what both men wrote and learned from both.

I liked Finn a bunch too and enjoyed the backpage stories by Gary Sitton.

JOC for me. Outdoor Life when I was in middle school started my love for hunting and guns etc. I belonged to the Outdoor Life Book club and got one of JOC books "The Hunting rifle" . my first big game rifle was a Remington 721 in .270 win. I think I have re-read that book 3-4 times. Pretty spot on. I never read much by Elmer. I really did not find out about him until later. Read bits and pieces of many others, by stuck with JOC. I have to say today I like our own Mule Deer....no non-sense backed with a ton of knowledge. goodshot

I own a 270Win, a 44 Rem Mag a 7mm Mauser and a 338 Win Mag. so I guess both.

My biggest influence was my dad's good old hired man Melvin.

As a kid(12-14 yrs old?) I was fascinated by ballistics and cartridges.

Melvin was the first guy I knew who reloaded.

He shot meat deer with a 22-250 and Breaks cow elk with a 243.
(my first big game rifle was a 22-250 but I do love the 270)


Read a lot of magazines as well.

I have never been influenced by any so called writer and such.I was lucky and always was able to hang out with and hunt with older people,DAD,Aunts and Uncles and learned many things that I was able to pass on the other people that hunted.I just never trusted people I had never met and looked in the eye or shook their hand.That is what and the way I was taught and it always worked out for me.

Dad had a subscription to OL so the early influence was JOC. Started hunting w/ a 30-30 carbine(Mom's rifle) The first rifle I bought was a 243 and I enjoyed much success with it. Got a new neighbor about 26 yrs. ago who was/is an Elmer clone & has ALL of his books which he allowed me to read. I have to agree w/ Elmer's philosophy when it comes to elk!
Cheers

I have grown and prospered reading many authors. Keith, O'Connor, Skelton, Askins, Hagel, Sell, Jobson, McIntyre, Waters, Bear, Barsness, Popowski and Roosevelt, to name a few. There are many more that have enriched life.

Neither, course I'm younger than many here.

I never really read a specific writer or magazine. I read them all and never paid much attention to the writer.

Sorta.

I noticed John Barsness when I read a Nosler manual where he had, IIRC, a custom Ruger in 6.5 Swede. (prob wrong on that) and that's what got me to pay attention and seek out his writing.

I liked Boddington, Barsness, Aagard and Seyfried's writing but I wouldn't say I followed any one of them religiously.

Read both O'Connor & Keith's books as a kid. Elmer made me want a .44 mag and a .375 H&H.

Jack never made me want to buy a 270, but did influence me to buy a 7x57. So did Bell.

I started reading Skeeter Skelton & Bill Jordan as a High School Freshman and was probably influenced by Skeeter as much as Keith. And that's why I'm probably more of a handgun guy than a rifleman.

Despite reading O'Connor as a teenager I was not influenced by him. I got tired of reading about him and the .270. I spoke with Elmer a few times and thought he was a nut because he didn't like higher velocity. One time I wrote to get something from him in writing. He sent me a postcard. He, apparently, put his fingers one line off and typed his answer. He signed it and sent it. Until I figured out the code I couldn't read it.

I read mostly O'Connor in Outdoor Life as a teenager and admit to being influenced by him. My first rifle was a .270 but not a Model 70. I bought a Sako Finnbear in 1969 and still have that rifle.

They were before my time. When I started really reading it was in '82, and by then they had kind of left the scene.

I read Boddington, Jack Lott, Finn Aagard, Bob Milek, and Rick Jameson.

Finn Aagaard and Milek were favorites. I was also influenced by some of the Hoffman's writings that along with Agaard got me started thinking about Africa. Also liked Boddington's writing back then and read some Chuck Adams, too. Our scool library had several O'Connor books, which I enjoyed and still think he was a great writer. Those books are the reasons I like .270s, .257s and 7x57s, all of which O'connor advocated. Hemmingway also had an effect on my hunting thought process, but in a different way. Never got into Keith despite being a huge handgunner my whole life and a mega fan of the .44 Mag. Never gotten through his book and don't remember being that interested in his articles.

I enjoyed reading JOC & by assimilation, probably learned a bit.

Never read a thing of Keith's, probably never will.

Learned a lot about loading & load development from Hagel, The Colonel & shooting from Carmichael. Picked up a nugget or two from Barsness.

MM

Nearly all my early hunting was with bows. So, Chick Adams was a guy I liked to read. I also read Randy Ulmer for his technical and shooting technique writings, and Cameron Hanes DIY Backcountry Bowhunting book definitely influenced me. Now I just choose to take a rifle instead. Since I like .308s and .338 Federals I guess Jack and Elmer didn't influence me.

Finn was my favorite ever.

Zumbo, and Wayne Van Zwoll and BobinNH are some of my favorites

Aagaard & Barsness for me. I suppose it helps that I've hunted with both, and know them to be good men as well as great writers.

I've hunted with another writer or two who were excellent with the written word, but turned out to be royal pricks in person!

Between JOC and Elmer, I'm definitely more of an O' Connor fan, and enjoyed his writing growing up.

Both were way before my time. If I had to choose I'd say I lean more towards the JOC side of things but I'd wager Keith left a larger mark on the shooting world as a whole.

Jack Lott cost me a lot of money on my early short fat seven wildcat. I don't know if I'm still angry or not and it's been about thirty years.

Okay, that made me laugh. Thanks.



My aren't you the well read fellow. I do find it amusing that your "opinions were determined and set". Do you reckon your set opinions will now never change? Got it all figured.

Personally for me both were influential.

Keith was an influence with heavy Sixguns and O'Connor seemed to strike a sensible balance on rifle cartridges for big game.

As a funny side note I started using a .338 Win Mag for everything and my dad started buying me JOC hardbound books. Seems he was trying to swing the balance back to centerline.

That's an interesting comment. I would agree Keith left a bigger mark especially because he gave us Hagel as well.

John Barsness is a terrific writer because he never tells you everything he knows on a subject, not to withhold a % for superiority, more an instinct to know when enough has been said.
Liked Hagel and Sitton very much. Wooters was a genuine teacher and always an easy read. Many others today, are too thin on knowledge to be writing.

Thanks for the kind words Bob. You may remember Col Allison had a .30/06 converted to 7mm RM before his epic 3 month hunt throughout the US back in the 70's? When I hunted Reds with him just before I came here he was still using it. Never saw that many 7 mags in hunting camps over there but it really would be a good choice for the majority of it.

Yeah you're right John, seems its 308s, 243s and 223s for 90% of hunters in this country. The other 10% of hunters will experiment with any number of cartridges but in the main Aussie shooters seem like an unimaginative bunch; hence a dearth of cartridges like the 7mm RM. Having said that the 7-08 is really catching on now.

Last piece of Col's that I read he was using a Zastava 30-06 and 125g NBTs on hog deer. Semi retired on the NSW mid north coast now. He's certainly one writer I'd enjoy having a beer with. His knowledge of customs and stockwood is something that would be interesting to tap into.

I started reading O'Connor at about age twelve; I was given old Outdoor Lifes from a favorite uncle. Mr. O'Connor got me interested in bolt action hunting rifles as apposed to military weapons and lever actions from the Westerns. I started with Keith at about 14, he was entertaining; but about his only influence on me was making me want a .44 magnum a long time before Dirty Harry. If a rifle is accurate, at least somewhat practical, or is historically interesting, I like it.

I had a subscription (thanks to various jobs I did as a youngster) to Outdoor Life so read O'Connor. However it was the fact that the single best hunting book and almost the only gun related book in the 'local' library was an O'Connor tome which I nearly wore out - and I 'knew' I would someday own a M70 in 270. Another useful book was "Hatcher's Notebook" which lead me into the world of ammunition curiousities - which lead to the blowing up of a 22 rifle (using the powder from a couple gallery shorts in a LR case) as well as my continued interest in dumping powder into and pressing primers and bullets into the cases of various cartridges. Keith arrived on my horizon when I bought "Hell I was There" in order to fulfill the purchase requirements of an Outdoor Life Book club commitment.

Then there was Hagel, Jamison, Waters, Timm, Howell, Barsness ( ) and a whole bunch of others. I have bought things as a result of reading most of them. (Some have cost me a lot! ) Does that mean they influenced me to some extent? (Still don't have a M70 270 )

While I don't think of myself as either a Connor or Keith devotee like a lot of kids of the 60's &70' s I read every outdoor rag I could get and as such was no doubt influenced by both . I do agree with what someone has already mentioned Connor did preach about bullet placement over sheer power and my limited experiences have reflected this to be true. Since I mainly deer hunt big bores have never been my thing.

Like others have posted, I can't say that I was influenced by either Keith or OC, as they were a touch before my time.

I will say I have spent the weekend reading "Hell, I was there." and I gave up on an earlier attempt to read "Sixguns".

I don't know that I have ever had an opportunity to read OC, per se.

Aagaard and Askins were two of my favorite writers when I was growing up.

12 seems to be a magic age; I discovered my 1st Outdoor Life in a Drug Store for 25 Cents, August, 1955 issue. Still have it. Do not recall how long I bought off the newsrack until I subscribed, but was not long. I tried to read everything I could get my hands on in those early years. Let my sub expire to OL when O'Connor left. Enough of an O'Connor fan that I have pursued acquiring all his writings.
For those who comment they prefer one or the others style,
O'Connor was a Journalism Professor; Keith was a Cowboy/Guide, with not much formal education. His style you see in print most likely had a lot of Editorial assistance. Not to demean his content; he had me wanting to shoot a deer with my 44 Mag, and handguns were not legal in Texas in 1961. There is a story about when the Game Warden found me in the field one evening with it. Good thing my family was friends with the Sheriff!

John,
My apologies for incorrect internet interpretation.(The dreaded iii Factor)
My opinions were set at the point of firstly discovering JO'C meaning were found to lean towards his view, secondly, you cannot be a "learned" or "well read" reader for something that is not available to read. We are after all, talking pre computer and internet stage.

And again, Because my experience with handloading and cartridges measure better by the wheel barrow load in consumables, it is an incorrect assumption to assume I am inflexible to learn after any point.

The internet teaches me both the value and detriments associated with what we assume, is communication.

John

I am too young to have grown up reading Keith or O'Connor. I grew up reading Carmichael though and always enjoyed his writings. One specific article that struck me was "Wind, Wolves and the Golden Boys." He is a big reason I grew up enfatuated with the .338WM...and the .260Rem. I always thought he was a class act.

My wife is from Idaho and while visiting family a couple of years ago we checked out the O'Connor center. It was great and I picked up several pieces of his works while I was there. I loved his writings too.

I gradually started picking up some of Keith's works over the last couple of years too. He amazes me. Not for his remarkable skill but his sheer tenacity. The knowledge he had was completely based on living in his time, in his wilderness and on his ranches. That is experience so many of us will never have or even have an opportunity to gather. Instead we depend on literature.

Neither Keith nor O'Connor were truly remarkable shots in my opinion though. Each have written extensively about the shots they miss and walk into game. Practices like this would be highly criticized if today's writers printed such. Instead, practice at the range is preached so single, accurate shots can be taken. Practice wasn't touted so much in older writings, probably because of cost factors and "wasting ammo" in bleak economic times. Could I have done as well in the field next to them? Probably not, .

My biggest influence though comes from my Uncle first, the man who really introduced me to hunting, and social communities secondly. Sites such as this have moulded my thought processes more than any single thing up to now.

Burns you really ought to write a book perhaps named " Astonishing Tales of Bedding Blocks...."

Sounds fair, but by your explanation JOC had some degree of influence if only to add validation to your opinions.

Anyway just take a note from my playbook and error on the side of modesty. Such a tactic has served me well and I would bet not more than half the members here think I am a pompous ass.



If anyone could write that book it would be me.

When I was a teenager, I was an avid rifle-guy; Jack was my go to reading each month and I was heavily influenced by him - except for the 270 Win; I loved the 30-06.

John
Let me clarify and then I'll drop it.
1. I never heard on O'Connor until that G& A publication after his death.
2. Most of the cartidges in that publication, I had already used.
3. I had formed some opinion of them through that first hand experience.
4. By coincidence, I read that he had similar views to mine based on his experience.

It is as simple as that and there was no pomposity stated or implied by myself though we are back that that internet interpretation again.
JW

Glad to find someone else who found it a difficult read - pictures apparently thrown in at random and definitely a stream-of-consciousness style.

Being born in 1971, and in a Philly Suburb, JOC and Keith were before my time. I read a lot of stuff written by Bob Milek and Finn Aagard, enough of each to have been influenced by them. In hunting style and gun tastes...... And now I live on the opposite side of the Bighorns from where Milek did.but its only about 130 miles or so!!!!!!!!

Jack O'Connor for me. 100%.
Oh how he could write and take you right along with him on his hunts.
He told the truth about rifles and calibers and had the experience to support it.
His writings still hold up today and he set the bar so high for outdoor writers that it may never be equaled.
Elmer was okay in short doses and informative regarding handguns.

I didn't read many articles of Jack and Elmer until in my 20's.

As a teenager Skeeter Skelton influenced my love of Ruger and S&W revolvers, Jon Sundra my addiction to Ruger # 1"s, Ross Seyfreid to unusall guns and cartridges.

Other favourites were Bob Milek, Clair Rees, John Wooters, Gary Sitton, Rick Jameison.

Current writers that are I find worth my time to read are John Barsness , Brian Pierce , and Craig Boddington.

Flyer

Many on your list mirror mine. I'd add John Taffin as well.

They both influenced me, long before I was more than an armchair "hunter."

Then hunting big game, especially in the West, swung me closer to Elmer's point of view.

Fortunately, I was a pretty good shot by then. Often scored higher than our champs in range practice but was woefully shy of their dog-biting "gotta win" attitude in official competitions.

Jack and Outdoor Life? A lot.
Elmer? Not so much.

I started reading Outdoor Life in the barber shop in 1965. I was 7. I know that for a fact, because that was the year my home town celebrated their Centennial, and there was a lot of hoo-haw going on over the parade. Bud Scholl was my barber. He was a drummer in the local big band orchestra. The guy at the next chair was the colorful Johnny Wade. Johnny was an "artiste." He took an hour to do one head of hair, and took three smoke breaks. I had Johnny for a barber for a few years, and then started with Earl Rachel. Everyone in that shop grew an elaborate beard for the parade.

This is probably the cover of the first issue I read:




I don't remember much about Jack O'Connor at first, but I do remember discussions among the barbers and the patrons. Everyone had an opinion on 30-06 vs 270 WIN, even though Ohio was a shotgun-only state. As I remember, most guys went to Michigan to hunt deer.

We moved out in 1969, and I started getting Outdoor Life at home-- by then I was hooked. Earl moved to-- opened a store a couple of miles from our new house. I was still having him cutting my hair until about 20 years ago.

Jack and Elmer were two writers who lived the life and gave you the plain unvarnished truth in their writings. Elmer was a little full of himself at times and some things he wrote about were a little hard to believe. He was the driving force behind the development of the .44 Magnum as Jack was the champion of the .270. Skeeter Skelton an John Taffin were more focused on handguns whose writings did much to advance handgun shooting and hunting

. . . Sorry, but I got pulled away.

The thing about Jack and Elmer' feud really didn't impinge on my consciousness until fairly late. Back at Bud Scholl's barbershop, there were opinions, but for the most part folks saw this as an "Out West" kind of thing. Easterners hunted with shotguns. When a rifle was an option, there was the 30-30 or the 30-06. You used a 30-30, unless you were a Vet and then you usually picked a 30-06, because that was what you were used to. 270 WIN was for Out West where you shot at long distances.

John,

Sorry but I was making a joke with the pompous. The saying here in the US is that if you have to explain the joke then it was not funny.

I tend to treat posting here like I would discussions at a real campfire so keep that in mind if one even bothers to read any of my posts.

I was in no way influenced by either writer. Matter of fact, Hell I was There is one of the worst books I have ever read and I just made it to chapter 2 of Sheep and Sheep Hunting before giving up.




Travis

As far as magazines go, since I'm under 40 neither Keith nor O'Connor were still writing so Jim Carmichael is the one that stands out as having a big influence on me.

From what I can remember of my childhood I began hunting with Dad at age 8 in 1947. As I remember there were always new Sports Afield, Field and Stream, and Outdoor Life magazines each month. Those advertisements sure did elevate this kid's imagination. Later in life I did enjoy both Jack and Elmer but the person whom I really looked forward to reading was John Jobson. It was his wit that caught me. I had some great laughs reading his material. Miss his stuff. He too was a great fan of the .270. Me? Not so much. Never owned one. Correction, I purchased two because I have a son who is partial to them.

Jim

I had a very nice Jovino, round butt, 3" S&W Model 624 that Elmer influenced me to rattle loose with way too much 2400 and hard cast 429421's.

I never did blow up a revolver with Elmer's loads. but I punched enough of 'em through model 24's and Model 29's to find out that you can definitely loosen up an N frame .44.

People can argue with me all they want, but a steady diet of 22 grains of 2400 capped by a Lyman 429421 will make a Model 29 rattle like a coffee can full of marbles in pretty damn short order.

I finally started using big frame Rugers for Elmer's loads.

I cooked the forcing cone out a few Superblackhawks with his loads, but I never shot one loose.

Well,...the grip frame would shoot loose, but not after I started using Locktite on the screws.

I grew up with family in Salmon, Idaho. As a youngster, when visiting my family, one of my 'summer' jobs was to mow my Aunt & Uncle's yard. My uncle 'loaned' me out to a 'friend' to mow his yard. That was my first meeting with Elmer Keith. He took me up to the city dump and tried to teach this youngster all about shooting a handgun.
As for influencing me, primarily he influenced my ideas on handguns and handgun cartridges. One of the things he taught me was to pick a cartridge I was comfortable shooting. Seemed a bit different from his thoughts and ideas on rifle cartridges after the fact but, though he liked the bigger handgun calibers he understood that a 12 year old kid probably wouldn't enjoy shooting a 45 LC.
I have three autographed books by Elmer Keith; one was to my Dad the other two were to me.
I didn't read much of JOC and still haven't though the one's I have read have a lot of good information in them.
Finn Aagard and JB have had a lot of input into my shooting but the # 1 influence on my has been my Dad and all of his brothers. Each served in WWII and each had learned to shoot prior to joining their respective branches of service. None of the pushed one type of cartridge over the other, rather, they pushed learning your rifle by shooting as much as you can at what ranges you hope to take game and, to them most importantly, hitting your target where you will do the most damage with what you are shooting. Their ideas still color my thinking though all are long gone.

Elmer has been my mentor since i was a kid. I liked Jack writing but he couldn't have walked a mile in Elmer Boots

Indirectly, I was influenced through Jack because of my Grandfather, who was definitely in Jack's camp.

Elmer had it right , big bullets , big holes, kill big game

Better give me your 4" 29 then, you blasphemous COCK.

I don't think that he could have even gotten into them.

Heehe. I saw that coming from 50 miles away.

I sure was. I love to read, and especially love to read about guns and hunting, and O'Connor and Keith were important to me as a youth. I have a copy of Sheep and Sheep Hunting. The chapters on the biology and ecology of the various sheep species could be a college level textbook. Might not be as interesting as some of O'Connor's other work, but it is darn well researched. And I, by golly, made it through the entire book!

Frankly, I can't remember ever reading anything by Jack O'Connor in my formative years in the early 1970s, though I probably did, being a devotee of Outdoor Life. I do remember Elmer Keith's columns and Articles in Guns & Ammo. Keith's writing and his opinions were interesting, entertaining, and memorable for their color, but Keith's experiences seemed exotic and irrelevant to the hunting and shooting I did (and still do) in the Midwest.

I much enjoyed the writing of Skeeter Skelton, and still do enjoy that of Ken Warner, whose laid back, tolerant and philosophical attitude toward his subjects I greatly admire.

Ken Warner is indeed a laid-back, tolerant, philosophical guy. Laughs at himself easily.

Nice guy. One of the best in the business. I've hunted with him several times and shared at least a few motel rooms with him.

I like him a lot as a person, as an editor, and as a writer.

He bought an article from me once that he never published � sent it back to me so that I could sell it to some other editor. Ne'er a mumblin' word about returning my fee.

A rare thing in this business � this is the only occurrence that I know of.

moosemike, though I was disappointed when Jack O'Connor left OL (1972?), it didn't take me long to begin to appreciate Jim Carmichael's work. I found myself equally disappointed when he recently retired...after a longer run as shooting editor at OL than Mr. O'Connor! I also have Carmichael's book "The Modern Rifle" and wish he'd written more books.

I try to read all that i can of all the writers that interest me.

The one that i really like is Ron Spoomer.
He shows everyone that without a sense of humor,it don't matter.

I try to read all that i can of all the writers that interest me.

The one that i really like is Ron Spoomer.
He shows everyone that without a sense of humor,it don't matter.

Double post!!!

I can't say that I was "influenced" so much by either writer, but I definitely agreed more with Keith than O'Conner based on my personal experiences. I grew up at a time when bullets were not as reliable as those we have today and hunted in areas that featured heavy brussh. A quick put-down and great blood trail was critical, so I learned early to trust heavy bullets and big bores more than velosity.

I always felt that if I'd grown up in the more open west where an animal could be seen after the shot, I might lean more to flat shooting faster rounds......but I didn't.

I also was more drawn to Keith and viewed him as a true "hunter" who could take game based on his talent and ability. O'Conner I always saw as a "dude" hunter who drank champaign with the local prince before having a guide do ther real work for him. He could, however, spin a good story and was a much more pollished writer than Keith.

I learned to read by Outdoor Life and Field and Stream, but to be honest, it didn't take long to figure out that most writers are writers...not experts in anything else. Pat McManus was my favorite.

I read them both extensively. I still pull out my copy of Keiths "Hell, I was there!" from time to time.

There was a time in my childhood when I knew what a .30-06 round and a .22 LR round looked like and that's about all I knew. I was reading some of my buddies dad's Outdoor Life mags and remember reading about a .270, which I'd never heard of. So in my childish ignorance I pictured the physical size of a .270 round as someplace about halfway between a 22LR and a .30-06; cause one's a 22 and the other's eight calibers bigger at 30. A year or so later I saw my first .270 and it totally blew my mind. I guess that experience could be called: "Birth of a Rifle Looney".

Not me I found Craig B. Ross S. and I own John B. Here the ones I first read and still read.

Sounds about right.

Three replies, that has torn it...now burns will send you a selfie!

same here but as i said in an earlier post at 32 im one of the younger guys here and those three are some of the ones that were writing when i started paying attention

Aus..,

I am thinking of building a new custom rifle so decided to go 'back to basics' and re-read two of JO'Cs books just last week. It was a surprise to learn everything I hold to be true about modern rifles came from O'Connor. And it's just as true today.

Elmer Keith's opinions on buffalo rifles, double rifles and handguns was spot on because by 1935 their development was pretty much done. And that's where Elmer stopped learning. Not trashing Elmer, I've been a .44 fan all my life mostly because of him.

But around 1935 is where O'Connor picked up the thread of the modern rifle and never looked back. Some of his writing is a little dated but by and large his stuff is going to remain current until we are shooting ray guns.

O

If you read something for the first time and find it aligns with your own views, I fail to see how that is considered an influence. It simply means 2 people traveled their own road and ended up in the same town.
The 2 learning's and opinions are mutually exclusive in the pure sense.

I did not have access to gun rags in my youth. By the time I started looking for shooting mags, Jim Carmichael was writing a rifle cartridge column in Outdoor Life.

I read and studied Carmichael's words. I even clipped his monthly column and kept the pages in a binder for a couple years. Carmichael's are the only books I have purchased on this subject.

His writing influenced me to purchase a 22-250, a 25-06, a 264 Win, and eventually a 260 Rem.

Aus..,

My dad was a follower of JO'C. Outdoor Life was the only mag that came to our house in those days (1950's). I was just a kid so I didn't have any basis for an opinion. So when I reread my O'Connor books for the first time in years, I was surprised at how much I had been influenced.

O