Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Which Rifle Starting Out?

I have never owned a muzzle loader and have little knowledge of them.

Where I hunt there are no restrictions of any sort on rifles, ignition, or bullets. If it loads from the muzzle, it's legal for deer...

What is my best choice in rifle and load to begin with.

Assume a rifle price of around $500... If I can spend less, well, great.
If I need to spend more, tell why.

I have an assortment of steel tube Weaver 2.5s and 4Xs that I can use.

This rifle says discontinued rifle but seems to be in stock. I think this is the same rifle that I bought from walmart a long time ago that was branded as a Woods Rifle instead of a Black Diamond. They look exactly alike. Mine has been great and I have killed lots of stuff with it. Deer along with a couple of coyotes and one bobcat. I have never had any trouble with it using the musket cap although I have the shotgun primer nipple. I would also go .50 cal no matter the rifle chosen. miles

This place has one Black Diamond XR in stainless left in stock
http://store.thirdgenerationshootingsupply.com/browse.cfm/2,4385.html

They are very well made rifles with great triggers but a novice might be better off with a T/C Impact, CVA Optima V2 or new Wolf in SS.

The XR is a older plunger design and a novice might not enjoy the extra care in cleaning needed. It also is not compatible with Blackhorn209.

If you dont mind the extra blowby and dont care about BH209, the XR is a fantastic ML.

What is blackhorn 209?

OK...
Googled it and it seems to be what all the cool kids are shooting for powder...

Can someone boil down the advantages for me? And Vs. Pellets?

It's stable, clean, and gives excellent accuracy and velocity. It's a little pricey and not all guns are compatible. You save a little with it because it requires standard 209 or 209 magnum primers instead of the expensive special 777 primers. It's not available in pelleted form.

Pellets are convenient, expensive, and probably not quite as accurate as loose powder, although that may not be such a big deal.

Midway has T/C Omegas still in stock and in your price range. It's discontinued, but very popular, for good reason.

You can also get a lower end Knight at a discount and they are good accurate rifles, at least the inlines. Someone else can tell you about the Vision, perhaps. Others like the CVAs, but I don't care for them myself, or most break-actions in general. That's just my preference.

That Black Diamond that I showed a link to, was better balanced and lighter than the Knights and Remington frontstuffer of the same time period. miles

I have a CVA and it will get the job done, but I much prefer the Thomson. miles

Generally speaking, how hard is it to find scope bases for a muzzle loader?

And do most rifles come with enough of the basic accessories to get a guy into shooting and hunting for a season or 3?

Will buying a ML set me on an endless round of the "gotta have this"???

Am wanting a ML to increase my time spent hunting... NOT looking for an additional hobby or extra project time...

Depends on which one.

No.

Endless is a strong word, but probably, at least until you figure out what works in your rifle and for you.

There is a certain learning curve associated with MLs that you will have to overcome to be successful and safe. There's also a bit more maintenance associated with them, and shortcutting that will leave you with a damaged or ruined rifle and may cost you opportunities in the field. You may find that you like muzzleloading well enough to give up something else.

"Will buying a ML set me on an endless round of the "gotta have this"???"

Probably. It does to most people.

The reason there are special seasons, like archery & muzzleloading, is that it takes a little extra effort to participate,(although a little less every year it seems). The sport of muzzleloading is enjoyable and not all that hard, but, there are many things you'll find you need and learn along the way to make it that way. There are many people that will offer advise based on their experience, but it's up to you to figure what works best for you. If you don't want to learn and practice the disciplines of the sport (hobby?), don't participate in the season.

And the original Knight MK85s and even the MK95s had real Timney triggers. White rifles from that period had Bold triggers.

All were darn nice and balanced well depending on the model variation. Non XR Blackdiamonds and old ThunderHawks were very handy. MKs were also made in 2 barrel lengths, possibly more.

I have a "thing" for those first generation inlines, especially the Whites. My LGS has an immaculate in the box Knight MK85 stainless/laminated for two bills I am sorely tempted to take home, and a like new H&R .58 cal Huntsman.......... but already have 2 new-to-me MLs that I haven't even shot yet. I'm a hoarder.

$200 for a NIB MK in SS/Laminate is a steal!!!!

BTW a new Bighorn stock is supposed to fit them if you want to keep the laminate in like new condition.

Yep, so is $165 & I had to "adopt" it. I justified it because I already have a 209 kit and bases for it. It'll have to go to the back of the line for awhile though.

So...

What is my best choice for load and rifle to begin shooting and hunting deer?

Assume please, that I will use BH209 powder...

I am curious about the T/C Impact and the CVA Accura. What else should I be looking at?

Best... who the hell knows?

If you want advice on something that should work for you until you gain some experience, then buy,

A TC Encore FX and mounts or an Omega
A couple of packs of Harvester Crush Rib .45/.50 sabots (.45 caliber bullets in a .50 caliber rifle).
A couple bottles of BH209
100 Hornady 250 grain XTP .45 caliber bullets.
200 209 or 209magnum primers (not 777 primers)
A pack of good quality cotton .50 patches and a .50 bore brush.
Cleaning solvent
A ML range rod with a muzzle guard and a .50 caliber jag.
An adjustable powder measure with a sliding funnel on the end.
12 to 18 BH209 charge tubes.
A small possibles bag for your stuff.
A 209 primer holder
Although you may not need it, a polymer short starter might be handy.

Anywhere from 80 to 100 grains (by volume, not weight) of BH209 is all you'll need to kill deer.

Do some reading. Follow the instructions that come with the rifle, especially the safety and maintenance stuff. Go to the BH209 website and read everything.

The list above ain't perfect, and others can and will disagree about some or all of it, but it should work. Put in the time it takes to get familiar with your rifle and the loading sequence before you head out to the woods. As others have remarked, muzzleloading takes time and effort and if you think it sounds too involved, maybe it's not for you.

If anyone notices that I've left something out, please chime in.

I'll take a stab at this, although I am far from an expert. I have been hunting with muzzleloaders for over thirty years, but like you, they only interest me as an additional hunting opportunity.

How will you be hunting (treestand, still hunting, in the woods or over crops, etc.)? If extended range is a requirement, you need to look at rifles that are capable of an 150gr load.

I have never used Blackhorn 209, but it is my understanding that some rifles may require a modified breech plug to use it. I also understand that to get consistent ignition that the projectile has to fit the bore fairly tight, which means it will be harder to load.

All propellants have drawbacks. 777 pellets tend to leave a crud ring in the breech that makes bullet seating difficult if not brushed out after every shot. Both 777 & Pyrodex pellets have a short shelf life. Once you break the seal on the box you better figure on using it up that season. By next season you will be getting inconsistent ignition and velocities. Pyrodex and 777 are both hydroscopic and corrosive, even in unfired form.

After using pellets for several years, I'm back to using Pyrodex RS granular. If I could find a good supply of FFg black powder, I would use it instead of the Pyrodex.

What I look for is a rifle that is relatively light, has a decent trigger, and has an easily removable breech plug with 209 shotgun primer ignition. My hunting rarely offers shots over 100yds, so I'm not interested in long range capability.

I use a load of 80gr Pyrodex RS with a Hornady .430 265gr flat point bullet (the one for the .444 rifle cartridge) in a Harvester crush rib sabot. This combo loads easy in my current rifle and groups 3 shots consistently within 1-1/2" at 100yrds.

I haven't looked at any of the newer muzzleloaders recently, but you should be able to find something in the price range you're looking at. I would try a few and see what fits the best. Also, if you are looking to keep cost down, I wouldn't spend any extra on a stainless model, they will corrode almost as fast as CS if neglected.

There's a review on the Impact on Chuckhawks ML section. Looks pretty favorable.

Be prepared; the writer, Randy Wakeman, is a confirmed CVA hater.

Find yourself an older T/C Hawken or Renegade in .50 caliber that has a good barrel. Might cost you $350, more or less. Buy bullets, buy powder and caps. Load 90 grains of 2fg BP and a 370 grain maxi-ball, go kill stuff. It isn't that complicated.

They shoot well and are reliable. Get one that was built before the QLA feature came to be.

"Be prepared; the writer, Randy Wakeman, is a confirmed CVA hater."

One of his redeeming qualities.^

If you check the online reviews from retailers like Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, etc., the guys that actually bought the T/C Impact give it very good marks. It's priced low enough you can put some decent glass on top and still be within budget plus you get an American made product.
I would also agree with DDan if you're inclined to go more traditional. That's how most of us started out.

I don't believe our boy is so inclined. He's decided to use BH, which precludes the sidelocks unless he gets a 209 conversion nipple. I think he wants it easy-peasy, which is fine. Everybody has their own pain threshold.

My brother has an Impact and it is very accurate. It has the usual TC tight bore and can be hard to load. My brother uses the Hornady 250 grain SSTs in the easy load sabots. The rifle is an easy 150 yard deer rifle. The trigger is great too. The shroud that covers the back of the barrel takes some getting used to, but all in all it is a fine rifle.

I have been using the Barnes expander sabots in my TC woods rifle, and they were hard to load, but I tried and it works, seating the sabot by itself and then dropping the bullet in and seating it. Barnes expanders are tapered on the base and work well using this method. I have my ramrod marked to ensure that I have everything seated proper. I have noticed no loss in accuracy by doing this. miles

I read here in this thread all the drama related to inlines and related components. He may have made up his mind but the only pain one might experience with a rig such as I suggested happens if you are the target, or maybe shoot youself in the foot.

I read this earlier and called around. There is no one who sells black powder in my area... can the substitutes be used in the rifles you mentioned?

buy a tc triumph ,blackhorn 209 powder ,win 209 primers,295 powerbelts and hunt.

tc has a very good trigger and its easy to clean

blackhorn is clean shooting accurate

win 209 work very well in the triumph

295 pb kill great but don't go over 110gns of powder.

if the triumph is to pricey for you then buy the impact.

Substitutes don't work as well in the traditional rifles without some conversions. A musket cap nipple will help with Pyrodex in a traditional gun. 777 degrades ridiculously fast (better shoot it all in every year). I can't speak for BH209 in those guns at all.

BP is very stable and works well in all of those MLs; tradition, inline, or modern. There are several online vendors that will ship it directly to you. You can probably find a traditional shooter in your area through here or through other boards that have a greater population of traditional shooters. Not only would they be a great resource to get your going, they'd likely be a good source for BP and/or a split order on BP.

If you like the traditional guns, get one and work through it. If you're sold on an inline, go that route. If you want a modern gun, get one. Each will have it's own needs that you'll have to cater to.

For what it's worth, I shoot or have shot several in each category.

Go total balls out stupid simple for your first go round into muzzleloading.

Stupid easy to load.

Stupid easy availability of bullets.

Stupid easy to clean.

I'm liking regular black powder more than subs, but that's me.


Any perceived deficiencies of the gun not having all the bells, whistles, latest and greatest, etc are either perceived, or easily overcome.


Just my advice.

That advice is solid and sounds a lot like a modern inline that can be cleaned from the breech, stainless barrel and action, in .50 caliber, using 209 primers and any choice of powder. I agree with you on preferring BP to substitutes.

OK...

This may be a stupid question, but can BP be used in any modern inline such as the Triumph or the Impact?

If used do i need to change ignition sources?

I'm gonna be away for the next couple of days. can access the 'fire on my phone but a PITA to post.

Thanks for all replies, and consideration...

As I'm traveling thru some urban areas in Wisconsin, I just may bring home a new ML, depending on what I find...

Absolutely it can. It will work with the inlines and with 209s. It'll also work with traditionals and musket caps or #11 caps. And, it is all that works with flintlocks. I do that with each every year.

FFFg in a .50 caliber will be JUST fine. FFg will work, too, if that's what you can find.

I agree that the setup you suggested is a good one, but maybe not as simple for a newbie as it seems to those of us that have been using this stuff for years. Tho OP wants to use a scope, which is awkward on a sidelock, and can't find BP locally. As a novice, buying a used, discontinued, sidelock is fraught with peril, as many have issues, such as pitted bores and split stocks that he has no experience with. He's pressed for time and just wants to hunt.

If he indicated that he wanted to go traditional, I would have suggested a Lyman Great Plains Rifle, or the Hunter version for conicals and sabots. They're good guns that are still in production. There are a lot of used TCs out there, but many are in bad shape. I bought a very clean .45 Hawken earlier this year, but good ones are getting harder to find.

BP is available from Grafs, among others, but the Hazmat fees jack up the price unless you buy a lot.

A big plus 1.






So what. Go on the hunting rifles forum and read all the drama people encounter with centerfires. It's more a reflection on the operators than the rifles.

I'm going to offer a slightly different opinion that agrees with Leon's brother on a great TC load.



AFAIK, all TC barrels are the same 1 in 28 twist shallow groove rifling that were designed to shoot sabots and do it extremely well ... as in very accurate.

I've tested five different sabots using a 250 grain SST and the most accurate, and easy to load, is the red Hornady High Speed Low Drag sabot. This sabot/bullet combo has shot very well in my TC Omega with 777 or BH209.

I chose to go with a SST because they can driven at higher velocity, have a slightly flatter trajectory (vs a PB), and they're one of the least expensive projectiles @ $15.99 per 20.

My go to load for deer is ...

250 SST HSLD sabot
WW 209 primer (less blow by than a CCI 209)
BH209 110 grains by volume (77.3 by weight)

Ten shot average speed: 1992 FPS

This load will produce 1" groups @ 100 fairly consistently (wind is often a factor where I shoot) but never over 2".