Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors LBK... my answer to your private message

LBK...

I wrote 2 relatively long replies to your private message giving you information to help you with your loads for your .250/3000 along with the explanation why RL-15 isn't the best powder for that cartridge.

Unfortunately, when I "clicked" on the "SUBMIT" button, my messages (in both cases) simply disappeared... never to be found again. And so, after more than 2 hours of writing and re-writing a reply to your private message, I have given up.

Here is Nosler's Load Chart net address for your .250/3000 (below)... check out what powders they use and the velocities they got. The fastest load for the 100 grain bullet was a maximum load of 35.0 grains of H4895 for a muzzle velocity of 2952 fps. Nosler has indicated that this maximum load is THE MOST ACCURATE LOAD for your cartridge.

H4895 is one of Hodgdon's EXTREME powders meaning air temperature doesn't affect the performance of this powder or change the muzzle velocity it yields. I have tested this powder in my .300 Savage cartridge and found this claim to be true.

Here's the Nosler Load Chart net address: http://www.nosler.com/250-3000-savage

If you'd like to talk further about this, please send a private message with your phone number on it along with a good time to call... and I'll call you since there apparently is something wrong with my private message system.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

LBK & Ron T,

Not meaning to intrude but I note that the Nosler data is for IMR [though I realize that many frequently substitute "H" powder for IMR without concern form pressure as the two are very similar.]

What initial drew me to the Hodgdon H4895 powder was the efficiency of the powder in producing the highest velocities with the least amount of powder.

All good - carry on!

85 grain Noslers in a premil 99?

Umm..


Ron was referencing 100gr bullets, but that page is for 85gr. I'm guessing the 100gr bullet page in the manual refers to H4895.

Rory... if you scroll down one Chart to the next Chart just below the 85 grain bullet chart, you'll find the Chart for the 100 grain bullet.

And below that chart are charts for the 110 grain, 115 grain and 120 grain bullets.

Ron T.

****************************************************************

Unfortunately, you are probably correct. However, it is foolhardy to do... that is to use one powder's loads for a similar (but different) powder.

To do so is inviting a "problem"... i.e., possible damage to your firearm... and/or possibly injury or death !

Ron

I if may also add a little. H 4895 like many Hodgdon powders are made here in Australia by ADI and re badged for the US market. You can access the ADI by using that name in google. The powder here is called 2206H here. I think they show 33.5 as max.

In my rem 700 classic I use the load you posted 35grn. I also use the 100grn nosler B.T. its an accurate and very good killing load.

As a matter of interest we pay around $50.00 for 500grms a bit over a pound. I believe your price as around 1/2 that. Its a great source of annoyance here that the powder can be shipped to the docks, dangerous goods transport, then shipped to the US & again it has to be packed and freighted to your retail outlets as dangerous goods yet we pay double. Hard to work out, we have a company here that make diff locks for 4wd, its cheaper for three blokes to get together and import back to Australia the very item that was sent to the US cheaper than it can be bought here

Johno

Thanks for your time and effort, Ron. The reason for the PM was so I didn't invite clogging up a collectors forum with a reloading problem that I haven't had as yet and don't want to invite either.

To bring everyone up to speed. Yesterday I took a couple rifles out in preparation for our annual trip to Anticosti.

I shot my 1899-B in .303 Sav shooting through my chronograph and achieved a velocity of a little over 1900 fps. Winchester 190 grain factory fodder. Results were within reason to what I expected.

The BIG surprise was shooting one of my 1899 250-3000's. Again, Winchester silver box 100 grain silvertip factory. Through a chronograph. Average velocity just BARELY broke 2100 fps. I was stunned. I expected in the neighborhood of 28/2900 fps. Accuracy was about 1 1/2-2" at 100 yds. And the bullet holes showed no sign of key-holing.

I went home and started re sizing cases and pulling bullets from my factory stuff. Last year I used the factory Winchester factory in my Model 14. Admittedly I did not check in over my chronograph. I will though and report back. I'm just REALLY wondering if the 1-14" twist had anything to do with my results?

I don't think the twist rate would make to much difference but 2100fps!!! wow!! that's factory stuff for ya ..

plab

I'll load some up of my own recipe, whatever it may turn out to be, and check velocities then. We'll see how it goes. Punching round holes in paper is one thing. Humanely killing a deer is quite another. Has anyone else here ever chronographed 250-3000 Winchester silverbox 100 grain out of a 1-14 rifle? I'd be interrested in hearing the results.

I have never chronographed those Win 100gr loads and granted what I am about to relate is only a example of 2.

I have killed 2 deer with the 250 Savage 100gr Silvertips out of a post mil 1 in 10 twist rifle. In both cases the bullet penciled right through the deer with no evident signs of expansion.

I always thought that the 100 gr Silvertip bullet was too "hard" , but perhaps the velocity of this load is just too low ?

.....or maybe it's a combination ?

YMMV


Mike

Time to change your leaders.

Nothing to do with leaders mate, its our whole retail industry

Johno

LBK...

My "Personal Message" center seems to be working again... and I've left you a message there. Check it out, my friend...

Ron T.

Watch for the flashing envelope!!!!!!!!

Johno, ol' cobber...

Sounds like you really have a problem with the price of the powders which are, as you stated, DOUBLE the price of about the same powders here in the USA.

But you Aussies surely have got one h*ll of a FINE Prime Minister!!!!!!! I see, on the net, that she's been "telling it like IT IS... and how it's GONNA BE!!!"

BRAVO for her !~!~!

Buttttt... as "usual", I digress... (shucky-DARN!!!)

Unfortunately, the cost of ALL powders here have doubled and tripled again and again. When I first got "into" reloading, I was paying $1.25 (U.S.) for a pound of powder and the same price for a 25 lb bag of shot for my trap and skeet shooting. Now... HA!!!... their costs are UNBELIEVABLE to an old shooter/reloader like me.

I know the "younger set" here won't believe me, but truth IS TRUTH whether one likes it or not !!!

I was also paying $5.95 a thousand for shotshell primers and $4.50 a thousand for rifle and pistol primers. And now? OMG, they're a whole LOT more costly!

Yeah, I "know"... the prices have "changed", but THAT MUCH "CHANGE"???

But then, I come from an era where BIG candy bars (Baby Ruths, 2 bigger-than-they-are-now Reese's Cups. Clark Bars, etc.) were a nickel each... and those little Coke bottles with the curvy sides were also 5� each... a hotdog was 15�, a good sized bowl of really great chili was 25�, a McDonald's hamburger was 15� and a small pizza (9�-inch) with onion, sausage, pepperoni and plenty of cheese was... (are you sitting down?)... all of $1.25 each from a good pizza pie retailer who made excellent and very tasty pizzas.. the BESTEST pizzas in town!

Oh, yeah... and a bottle of good beer was 25� or maybe 30� in the higher-price places... gasoline was 21.9� a gallon for "regular" and Boron hi-test gasoline, which I HAD to run in my "hopped-up" Ford V-8 with milled heads, headers, dual exhausts, a 3-deuce set-up of carbs and a "blower" (supercharger) on top was all of 25.9� a gallon. Ahhhh, YESSSSS, "those-were-the-days" !~!~!

A new 1954 Ford Victoria Hard-Top sold for $2400 (I know, I had one) and that was with a "fake" continental tire half-way protruding from the trunk-lid and a VW "Bug" sold new for $1700. My 1958 Corvette bought "used" in August of 1958 with only 3,000 miles on it cost all of just $3900 (283 cu.in. engine with two 4-barreled carbs and a "warm" factory cam) made 270 H.P. and had "4-on-the-floor" and Pos-i-traction... it ran like a scalded-azz ape !!!

Yeah... "times" sure the heck have "CHANGED" (!!!)... but not so much for the better, in this protesting old guy's mind.

Buttttt... enough of this... nobody really cares, anyway.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

You're WRONG......................I care WAY more than I should!!!!!!!

Awwwwwww... LBK... yer just an ol' SOFTY...

But let me read your message... brb...

NOW, "Beardy".... YOU watch for the flashing envelope!!!!!!!!

Thank you..................I more ways than ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

change is not always for the better

plab

Change, in and of itself is neutral. Those of us that have to live through it are the ones that have to decide whether it was good or bad. It's a lot like "progress." Progress is. It's effect on us is up to us to decide.

Well said... and very true, Skid...

How can someone who hasn't live through it make ANY determination at all as to whether or not the change or changes which have occurred are for the "better" or "worse" since they have no REAL experience in the matter, but can only read someone else's opinions or be told by another their thoughts on how good or how bad the change(s) made in THEIR lives.

Naturally, one can have their own opinions, but "being there" is the ultimate and most "valid" & deciding factor.

Jus' my 2�...

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...

....but they can't always remember it.

That was mean.




But by this time tomorrow I will have forgotten you were mean to us old guys.

Thats the beauty of it.

Kind of like when the wife goes over to the 15 year old movie collection and asks, "What movie do you want to watch?" and your response is, "I don't care, I haven't seen any of them."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... that's a good one, Fireball2 !~!~!

It's not funny, it happens in our house often!

saves tons of money! always new!

As a follow-up to this. I did in fact make up some handloads for this rifle using the same components EXCEPT for a powder charge. In using the powder I used, I also went against some very good advice. I found loads that would work using BOTH IMR as well as Hodgen 4895. I used RL-15 which I found in every recent manufacture manual I have, and I have a bunch of different manuals. The load I worked up to was a Hornady load out of their 7th edition manual. The load started at 32.1 grs and I worked up to 33.4 and settled on that. The manual claims 2800 FPS out of a 24" barrel in 1-14 twist. My 1899 250-3000 has a 22 in barrel and my average velocity was 2709 FPS and I figured the muzzle energy to be 1629 foot pounds at the muzzle. I was really quite pleased for this load and how much it out performed factory.

As an aside. This rifle will be 99 years old on November 22nd. This will be day number two of the hunt, so I make this prediction. I will kill a buck on that day with this rifle.............




I also decided on taking my .308 EG to the island again. I have plenty of handloads on hand for this rifle so it will help keep the work down. I fired a total of ten rounds through my chronograph. All 10 rounds were within the minute of deer kill zone. What I WAS surprised at was that a 165 grain round nose was faster than a 165 grain spire point. Both were Hornady bullets.

Thanks for the report! I have been using nothing but RL-15 in both the .250 and .300 for several years now. Velocity and accuracy are both top notch!

I've found RL15 to be excellent in the 250 and 300 Savage cartridges.

It's great if you want to make a 250 a real 250-3000 with 87 grain bullets. The accuracy in my rifle is superb, and the pressure appears to be modest.

Up until now, I have ONLY used 87 grain pills. I bought a model 14 American Classic just to try something different. It worked OK but lacked the "explosiveness" of shooting one with that tiny little bombshell. Then with all the talk of certain bullets bullets keyholing in the 1-14 twist barrel I wanted to see for myself. I haven't fired a silvertip yet that didn't fly perfectly. I am certain that once I kill a deer with this particular rifle it will be back to my 87's and 3018 FPS.

The 25 cal 100 grain Silvertips I've had were rather blunt flat bases. It would be a likely candidate for a 100 that would work in a 1-14" barrel.

Steve (Longbeardking)...

This only goes to prove that old axiom... "Different strokes for different folks.", n'est pas, mon ami?

Glad you checked out those different loads and that you are completely satisfied with your old load with the 87 grain bullet. It's been very effective on deer for close to 100 years.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

The Nosler load with H4895 and 100 grain Ballistic Tips has been great for me too.

My load for the Model 14 250SAV is Nosler's book max H4895 with Fed 210 primer,100gr Partition, and Remington brass. The accuracy tighten up right at book max. Worked well on Anticosti last year. Nice to watch the deer drop through the scope. The 1 in 14 99F does very well with R15 and 87gr Speer. Maybe I should bring that in case LBK needs a backup.

Yes, you should. But LBK won't need no stinking back-up. I can make deer drop just being close by. The minute they even THINK there's a Savage in 250-3000 in the immediate vacinity they just line up to get shot............

I got to go find my "REALLY TALL"boots now !!!!!!

Dr. Schofield PHD.........Piled high and damp!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had factory .25-06 ammo in the past, that was a good 400 fps under rated speeds. And the last box of factory 150gr .300 Savages was in the 2300's. I'm almost of the opinion one needs a chrono, even if you don't handload, just to be sure of the factory velocity.

I don't know what to tell you other than this. Whether you handload or not chances are you're going to check your rifle before you hunt with it. You can kill a deer with a pointy stick from a bow. You aren't depending on energy to achieve your goal. You are looking for a lethal cut. Not so with a bullet. You (I) want as much energy as I can safely get and without proper velocity (adequate) your downrange energy suffers. At ranges of 100 yards or less it isn't much of an issue. But you start stretching your barrel, for the animal's sake please know your velocity. This last week I set up and pulled every bullet out of EVERY factory round that was in my ammo chest and dumped the powder. It will all get reloaded as needed. I know guys that have never reloaded a round in their lives and that's OK. I am just not that person. I'm not out there to hurt the animal I'm out there to kill it and do it as humanely as possible. Sorry for the rant.

Steve (LBK)...

I'd bet that most of us who hunt and reload as well feel the same as you feel about making "clean" kills with a minimum of causing any unnecessary suffering by the game we've shot.

To do less is unsportsman-like and not in a REAL hunter's "book".


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Just now messing with my pastors 250-3000 99F. He's not a handloader. 87 grain Speers- Top loads of Varget and H4895 got 1 1/2" groups at 80 yards. Went to IMR 4064 35.5 grains and found the sweet spot, 5/8"-3/4", book velocity 3080 fps. Have not chronied yet.
Very nice load at 35-35.5 grains.