Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Penetration

Do you generally prefer to have bullets penetrate fully? I've never really thought about it much,as I've generally hunted deer and rarely caught a bullet unless it was a hard angle. As long as the animal went down quick, I'm happy.

I finally got my first bull elk this week, and was a bit surprised. I was shooting a .375 Ruger with 260gr Accubonds,a bullet I haven't used before. Shooting commenced at 200 yards,and the first shot landed straight up the middle of the leg about mid chest. No reaction at the shot whatsoever. Since

I had kinda been trapped in an open wheat field with no rest,so I was shooting freehand and I'll admit that I got a bit frazzled then and sent the next to shots into the wild blue yonder. Gave myself a brief but loud talking to and settled down a bit.

He finally turned to start towards the tree line and turned to show me his opposite side,so I shot him there too. No reaction to the shot. He took maybe 2 more steps and then stood there,head down. I started to move up and got to about 100 yards to where I could rest on a tree. He was now quartered hard away so I shot him one more time, which resulted in a massive explosion of steam from the entry wound. Didn't even flinch. I watched for a few seconds,and finally he laid down.

I gathered my stuff and walked over to him. He was still making noise and kicking a bit, so I shot him in the neck,figuring it'll make it easier to take his head off anyway..

What I found most surprising was that none of the bullets exited. Now this is the first animal I've shot with this rifle and also the first time using Accubonds, so maybe this is the norm with these bullets. I'm certainly not complaining, as I could have stopped shooting after the first shot and been fine, but the lack of reaction made me second guess myself and I figured since I had bullets I may as well use em.

I've been wanting to try the tipped TSX's after seeing the stellar results others have had with them in smaller calibers. I wish now that I had cut him open to see the damage and try to recover some bullets, but it was going to be a warm day and I was a long way from home so i wasted no time. Do you think I would have had a different result with say a 270gr TSX? I should have taken better pics to show the bullet holes, you can just see the first shot in this one,and the quartering away shot. The load was 82gr of IMR4350,which shot very well.

I think it's always better to have an exit wound on game you intend to eat.
It's rare that they just drop dead, and often an entry wound won't let much blood out

Hog bull man, very nice.
I prefer my bullets to exit even though I love looking at recovered slugs. With an exit you have twice the potential for a good blood trail as well as the confidence on future shots that sufficient penetration will be available should you happen to flub a shot or if you have to send one through the shoulders. I belie the TSX would have exited in your case, as the partition likely would have as well.

As for elk showing no reaction, that has been my experience at times. I shot a big 6x7 bull one fall with a 180 from a 30/06, his only reaction was to take a step behind a big pi�on pine where I couldn't get a follow up into him. And then he commenced to stand there for upwards of 20 minutes until he collapsed. They can be tough creatures for sure.

I don't think it matters if the bullet exits or not. So long as the bullet has the ability to penetrate the chest cavity from any reasonable angle or distance,and has the integrity to break bone at either end of the wound channel, the damage has already been done to the important vitals,and the animal will die.

Elk hide is rubbery and will frequently stop expanding bullets of any type I have seen used. Breaking through that hide adds nothing to terminal effect and exit wounds don't always leave big blood trails.If it exits, fine, but I would not lose sleep over it.

Maybe I am spoiled from too many years using Partitions, which frequently(but not always) exit,so don't give it all much thought. Generally the blood trails have not been needed...common occurrence with a Partition,or any other good bullet placed properly.

Actually a couple of the biggest and easiest-to-follow blood trails I can recall, the bullets did not exit;and on one of the toughest trails, it did.....go figure.

I like total penetration. They leak more from two holes in case you need to track them. If you don't get an exit hole, sometimes only one lung will collapse. Most game animals can go a long way with one working lung before they lose enough blood to die.

Yes--moderate expansion, deep penetration. Think along the lines of Partition or TSX/TTSX. Generally a exit leaves no doubt the critter is hit. The elk may not immediately fall down, but you know it's gonna die sooner rather than later.

Obviously your bull didn't didn't run off like the proverbial scalded cat, and hung his head at the second shot--both of those are indications he's sick and probably not going to live much longer.



Limited experience with Accubonds on elk, a lot of experience with Ballistic Tips and a range of other bullets. Based on the AB experience, they perform a lot like BT's. And yeah, it's often not as readily apparent if they're hit (and yeah, a lot of guys are gonna say Ab's perform "just like Pt's"--I be skeptical on elk).

If you had done a "bullet necropsy" on the bull, and seen just how far they penetrated, and what bone/tissue they hit and/or passed through, it would have certainly given you a better idea of bullet performance.

Casey

I prefer exits.

I've also found that 'bigger' bullets are more prone to be caught in critters.

The best blood trails begin with "L" - liver, lungs, or legs. A liver shot is awfully close to the paunch so it is hard to suggest though it may make an excellent blood trail. A leg shot will likely make a good blood trail - and long- but it may never become terminal. A solid lung shot will bleed well though perhaps be largely contained inside the ribcage. The best blood trails are short blood trails - which result when an animal is hit well- and will often produce a solid blood trail via the nose.

Shooting again is never something I've regretted when animals are large. It's much better to "admire the shot" when the animal is laying dead and you can see that number two was unnecessary.



.

,

You made two comments in your post which caught my attention. First, you mentioned you shot your bull in the middle of the chest. Your were photos don't show much. You also said you didn't "cut him up."
You may be surprised just how low the heart and lungs are inside the chest cavity. I'm guessing your bullet went through the top of the chest cavity. Also many of the animals I've taken which I thought were broadside were actually quartering away to some extent or another. Remember, animals don't stand in a straight line and their bodies are usually twisted and contorted because they are standing on rough ground and preparing to move.
How did your bull get "cut up?" Therein is your information.
Since you missed your second and third shot, I suggest that you consider using a lesser cartridge with monolithic bullets. I just returned from 30 days in South Africa and Namibia. I used a 270 with 130 grain Barnes & Bitterroot bullets. 28 of the 29 animals succumbed to a single shot thru the top of the heart. One required a second shot. 27 went 45 yards or less. Shot placement with a great bullet always gives these results. I don't consider the bullet you used to be great but that is just my opinion.

Love those dark antlers. Personally, I think penetration/exit wounds are over-rated.

I ain't got a reason to use a 375 anything on this continent.

Funny about the angles, I've shot some stuff and was later amazed at how different an angle the critter was to me than I thought.

Penetration is NEVER over-rated. I'll take a bullet that pencils through as opposed to one that don't make it past the shoulder.

Not me, I love bullets that don't make it past the shoulder. Yep, that's what I said all right.

I've killed 4 elk with 180 and 200 grain 30 cal. Accubonds all 1 shot 3 pass thru's, your Elk was most likely dead after the first shot .

Hi carlo,

I shot a huge (900lbs+) last Sunday with a 160 grain Partition fired from my 7MM Rem Mag. It was through & through with a huge exit. I didn't have to fire a second shot.

I always prefer through-and-through shots.

I agree. Anything in the '06/.308 Win family will do the trick.

CONGRATS ON A FINE ELK!
every elk and every hunt is different, but the one factor I read I think a bit odd, is you stated you hit the leg mid chest, and go no reaction"the first shot landed straight up the middle of the leg about mid chest. No reaction at the shot whatsoever."
the reason I find that a bit odd is I've spent some time hunting with a rather similar 375H&H carbine, and I've always seen a rather marked impact reaction

375 H&H, loaded with 80 grains of WW760 under a 270 grain hornady and a 215 federal primer has worked in my sako carbine for decades, its my go-to heavy timber carbine most years, in fact most of the guys in our elk camp refer to that carbine as " THUMPER" because several guys swear it knocks elk silly

I much prefer exits

Me too, I'll pick the path to the vitals, animals seldom offer it up, nice bull XX.

Let's see some pix.

I typically hunt in south Texas "brush" country. An exit wound is almost an imperative. If there is no significant blood trail, the time required to recover your game, if you can find it at all, increases seemingly exponentially. And, the blood trail from an exit wound is much more impressive than from that small-diameter entry wound.

I haven't lost many animals over the years, but of those I eventually found only because of an exhaustive search, they almost always lacked an exit wound.

Someone cue the heartshot buck video..

I'm amazed they found this deer.. An exit wound would have bled much more, and made an easier tracking and recovery.

In a life time and 38 elk I remember 2 that dropped at the shot. Through the yrs. I've used everything from 243 & 250 Savage to a 375 H&H. Experience has shown the Nosler Partition in any caliber to be better than......
Yes as others have stated I have come to like total penetration.
Cheers

I likely won't be using the .375 again on elk for some time, but I had it and wanted to use it at least once. I do have a moose tag in pocket which I hope to take with the bow, but if that fails I may use it once more this season. This time I'll be close to home and a cooler, so autopsy will be performed.

Shooting shoulders seems like the way to go, and if the opportunity presents itself again I will try to do that. I'll make sure to remember my damn shooting sticks too. I'd like to have just a single load for the rifle, and I'm thinking the TSX would assure adequate penetration even if your shooting bone.

A critter not dropping at the shot doesn't always mean it's not dead. Sometimes they just don't know it yet..

xxclaro,

FWIW-
I also own and shoot a .375 Ruger, and use Barnes TSX 270 gr. and TTSX 250 gr. bullets exclusively. Both shoot with fine accuracy.
Just returned from Africa, where I used the 250 gr. on Sable and Black Wildebeest, among other critters. The shot on the Wildebeest was at 275 yards, and penetrated fully, resulting in a sudden kill. The shot on the Sable was a high shoulder shot at 200 yards. The bullet didn't exit, but dropped the bull like a stone.
I have had similar results on a Nilgai bull, just inside 200 yards, with the 270 gr. TSX. Bull dropped in its tracks, with the bullet under the hide on the far side.
Whether the TSX or the TTSX, recovered bullets are boringly similar, with the signature four petals folded back, and with full expansion.
I can't imagine what happened with your elk- I would have expected a much different reaction than what you described. In the end, you wound up with a dead bull.
I can understand your lack of confidence in the Accubond, although it is a great bullet. A switch to Barnes, however, would never be a bad decision, not just based on my limited experience with the .375 Ruger, but with many other calibers as well.

Never seen that happen....I have seen the off side lung unscathed by a bullet that could not (did not not)make it to the offside.

Mmmmm.....this isn't supposed to happen. After all, we are talking a 270 Winchester


Rick any correlation between distance animals traveled and bullets that exited vs those that did not?

You doubtin' me?

xxclaro;
Congratulations on that nice bull sir, he looks to have a nice big body on him and as others have noted the dark antlers look very cool.

As an aside, I'm more than a wee bit envious of the terrain where the bull is laying. We're mostly in pretty rough country where we chase our game and there have been a few times like this morning (daughter/black bear) when we pass on game in the warm early season because we might not get it out without the meat going off.

I suppose too the country we're in is part of the reason why we've come to prefer exits if we can get them on game. Perhaps better said, we're going to try to break one or both shoulders if at all feasible - or on a front on shot the spinal column - so penetration is certainly desirable.

We went to monometal bullets about 8 or 9 years ago and the type of tissue damage that results with them is such that we're able to break shoulders and still eat them. As well, I think we're getting better results/reactions from the game shot with monometal bullets - TSX, TTSX and GMX - when they hit large bones as opposed to only say ribs and lungs.

Anyway sir, hopefully that made some sense and was useful information. Again congratulations on the fine bull and good luck on your remaining hunts this fall.

Dwayne

Rancho,

I was in a PETA approved CRP elk unit. I was armed with a weapon that was up for the task. I stalked within distance. I caught a huge bull, photographed him, & released him.

Here's what I used to do the PETA deed:

carlo,

That is a gorgeous bull. Congratulations. Did you kill him Alberta? He looks to be a 6x6. He has beautiful antlers.

When my guide sends me photos of the bull I killed, I'll post them. He was a huge old-timer. A Division of Wildlife Resources game warden, who has a masters in biology, took a look at a couple of my bull's teeth and put his age at 10 years. In the meantime, you can take a look at a cellphone shot of him at Eastmans.

BTW, I have always had good luck with Partitions. The .375 Ruger is a big gun. It'll put anything down. I used my 7MM Rem Mag. A single 160 grain Partition destroyed its heart & he was mine. It was a through-and-through shot.

If your bullet didn't punch right on through, it ain't a big deal because your bull is aging before processing.

Again, Carlo, great job. I wish you many more successful seasons.


Take care,

SS

Carlo, do you hunt the states?

Sounds like bullet gave up all its energy in the animal.. Should have dumped him
Any time I found a bullet inside an animal he fell in his tracks..saw a guy shoot a huge moose in northern bc with a 180 gr fusion about 125 yds. Dropped like a brick and we found the bullet in the hide...

I tested the 260 ab and wasn't impressed.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...19652/all/30_cal_bullet_test_cow_femurs_

Doesn't seem like it performed poorly in your tests.

I've got some 250gr TTSX loaded for my .375 Ruger that I will be using next month for moose hunting. I'm expecting an exit on most reasonable shot angle.

Necropsy and photos would be most telling, and playing Monday morning quarterback, would have made an interesting thread on shot placement and reaction to the shot. Without, lots of speculation without all the facts.

Is it possible your shot hit high lung, while missing any major bone in the area of the shoulder/spine. Possible that would be a large volume of lung(s) to fill with blood before the brain was starved and/or the elk drowned in its own blood.

Sounds like your elk didn�t travel too far and you kept on it until it was down. That sounded awesome, especially how you caught yourself getting rattled for a shot or so, and then managed to pull yourself back together to focus on the subsequent shots until the bull was down. Great Job!!

I�ve seen much smaller deer take a fatal hit and show no overly obvious reaction. I�d not expect a much larger game animal, the likes of an elk, to drop to the shot unless the hit somehow involved major bone and/or its central nervous system. If the animal was calm and never became aware of your presence, nothing dramatic like its heart being torn out of its lower chest or any major bone or CNS hit, it certainly seems plausible. Your very testament underscores the possibility of such a reaction, or lack of reaction. If I were you, I�d be happy. I suggest not reading too much into a lack of bullet performance absent the recovered bullet and necropsy.

Thanks for sharing.

Best

Not poorly, no but considering many .30 cal bullets performed better and a 375 is supposed to be a step up I wasn't impressed. I'd be using the 250ttsx/gmx in a ruger/h&h for elk and moose if not a 300.

xxclaro,

I have some experience with the two biggest AccuBonds, the 260-grain .375 you used and the 250-grain 9.3mm, and they're built a little differently than most AccuBonds. Like heavier Partitions, they're designed to retain a higher percentage of weight.

A lot of hunters think higher weight retention automatically means deeper penetration, but the frontal spread of an expanding bullet is actually more important. When either big AccuBond expands normally they penetrate pretty deeply, though usually not quite as much as a Partition of the same weight, because the "mushroom" of a Partition normally peels back over the rear of the bullet, leaving less frontal area. The bigger AccuBonds tend to result in a wider mushroom, because of the thick jacket and bonded core. If they hit relatively heavy bone, like an elk's leg bone, they expand even wider.

This often results in the bullet ending up under the hide on the far side, where a Partition might have punched through. But on the way they make a big hole. I've only seen a few of these bigger AccuBonds recovered, all from game of 500-800 pounds, and all were either on angling shots or they hit some heavy bone on the way, whether shoulder or spine. All were under the hide on the far side, retaining 80% or more of their weight, and widely expanded.

Some other bonded bullets tend to do the same thing, or have an even greater tendency. I've seen it with Norma Oryxes, Swift A-Frames and Sciroccos and, especially, Woodleigh Weldcores. Personally, I'm not as concerned with an exit hole as some hunters with such bullets, because if the bullet didn't exit that means it made a big hole and the animal will be dead shortly. But if for some reason I do want an exit hole, such as when hunting thicker cover, I tend to use bullets that don't mushroom as widely, such as heavier Nosler Partitions, North Forks, or "petal" type bullets, whether Barnes TSX's, Hornady GMX's or Nosler E-Tips.

An autopsy would have been helpful, but sometimes animals just don't die very quickly, even when hit in the right place. I've seen a few like that over the years.

Nice bull!

People who 'need' blood trails would probably do well to rethink their shot placement as well. A shot through 'shoulders' which doesn't break major bone and disable an animal (so that it dies nearby) is not a reliable way to create a blood trail via the voluminous chest bleeding it will likely produce; the muscles tend to help seal the wound. On the other hand a shot behind the shoulder/leg area, especially a through-and-through side-to-side chest shot with a well-expanding bullet, will often lead to rapid lung collapse which allows blood to pool inside the chest cavity. If the holes are low there will likely be a good blood trail. If they are higher up the blood may never reach the level where it is expelled from the hole(s) in much volume.

Big animals can surprise people who are accustomed to killing smaller, couple-hundred-pound animals. Being closer, hitting them (well) more than once, and hearing sound evidence after the shot are all useful ways to find an animal after the shot(s).

Then there are the "shoulder" shots that don't get much of the vitals....