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The laws of physics positively states that all things being equal you would have the same exact amount of killing power. However the two equations that are not equal in this equation is bullet weight and diameter. The equality argument can be made for each existing caliber directly under the next however at some point you realize that you've talked yourself all the way down to a 22 long rifle or maybe even the 22 short. This is the point where the realization finally sets in the you have indeed been slowly talking yourself down. Is the 7 mm slightly less than the 30 cal? Yes, slightly! With that being said I personally prefer the 7 x 57 mouser. For me it is the perfect ballance of range, recoil, shot placement, etc. Shot placement I believe is the deadliest equation of all!

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Originally Posted by Shod
The laws of physics positively states that all things being equal you would have the same exact amount of killing power. However the two equations that are not equal in this equation is bullet weight and diameter. The equality argument can be made for each existing caliber directly under the next however at some point you realize that you've talked yourself all the way down to a 22 long rifle or maybe even the 22 short. This is the point where the realization finally sets in the you have indeed been slowly talking yourself down. Is the 7 mm slightly less than the 30 cal? Yes, slightly! With that being said I personally prefer the 7 x 57 mouser. For me it is the perfect ballance of range, recoil, shot placement, etc. Shot placement I believe is the deadliest equation of all!


Well stated.


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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd


I don't know that you can ever truly know-shoot two hundred elk and maybe you can close in on a legitimate opinion but you can never get rid of all the variables..


May take 2,000 and even then not be conclusive. Statistically, the smaller the difference, the greater the sample size required to establish a credible difference. And throw in the variables of shot placement, state of the animal (at rest or in the rut), etc, etc, like you pointed out.

IMHO, this is always going to be anecdotal and subject to each shooters experiences and biases. But, that's what makes it fun and will never allow it be a "science". Besides, science can be boring... grin

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I shot a cow elk with 308win/180SB thru chest and broke offside upper front leg bone, lodging under off side skin.
Shot bull and cow with 284win/160NP and 200 and 300 and both were pass thru only hitting ribs and lungs.
Also shot several with 270win/130NP,150SB and most were pass thru.
Of course everything died, so bullet performance was great.
I personally think the 284 win with 160NP is a real butt kicker and with the 120BT rounds out its ability to handle about any task.
jmho
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Ive seen a good many deer and elk shot with the 270-280-30/06 class cartridges, they all seem to give vary similar results in my opinion, stepping up velocity with the 7mm mags and 300 mags sometimes seems to produce faster kills and more bullet failures, Ive dressed out dozens of deer and elk, and at least in my case Ive seen that the larger calibers and heaver bullets in the .270 -.300 sectional density range in the .338-.375 calibers moving at sub 3000fps velocities seem to produce the more consistent results and deeper penetration.
but the fact remains that almost any projectile that impacts the heart lung area and penetrates 10"-12" thru that area ,potential delivers a mortal wound, its the projectile destroying vital organs that matters, and its both shot placement and the fact that both impact angles and ranges are unpredictable and most hunters CAN,T consistently place bullets correctly under field conditions that causes the problems, selecting a bullet that has a higher sectional density (weight for diam.)tends to increase penetration allowing raking angle shots to reach and destroy vital organs, but the main factor its the LACK of consistent hunter skill in proper bullet placement in my experience.
In my experience ,you have a better chance of a single shot kill if you limit shots to ranges where you can place shots consistently in a 5" circle and if you use a heavy for caliber expanding bullet, and on animals as large as elk Ive found the
150 grain 270
160-175 grain 7mm
180grain-200 grain 30 cal
to work reasonably well
but once you see what a 250-270 grain 338-375 caliber does its just obvious that the medium bores have a slight advantage
any of the better bullets can and do produce mortal wounds, with proper shot placement.
but Ive noticed the heavier medium bores consistently seem to impact harder and get a more pronounced reaction from game
IVE found no reason at all to swap from a 250 grain speer in my 358 win or 35 whelen, or a 250 grain HORNADY in my 338 win or 340 wby.
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 42 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
or If I put a different perspective on this, if wounded elk consistently used those antlers to impale and kill elk hunters that could not properly place their shots I think you would find far more proponents suggesting a 35 whelen-375 H&H was a better selection than a 25/06-30/06 for use in elk hunts

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Originally Posted by seattlesetters
With today's bullets (say, a 150gr TSX), the .284 is about as good an all-around cartridge that you can find that is still pleasant enough to shoot.



'Zackly. But, I'd be packing a 280.


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About that time of year again.



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For what, to dig up a three year old thread? Just kidding. I love these type discussions.

I only began hunting seriously in 1998. From 1977 to 1998 I only dabbled in it. Considering myself a kid in 77, I purchased what must have been the hardest recoiling rifle I have ever owned. It was a Rem700 BDL in 308 Winchester. I honestly believe if I still owned that gun in its original configuration it would still be the same.

After that, I embarked on 7mm Wby's & 280 Rem's. I fell in love with them. But, I never lost my desire for a short action 30 caliber. When the 300 WSM & 7WSM came out I tried both. I could not get the desired velocity from the 7 WSM, so I stayed with the 300 WSM & purchased a Sako 85 in that chambering.

I quickly developed a very fond attachment to this chambering and haven't hunted with any of the others since. The 300 WSM supersedes the 7 Wby, 280 Rem & 308 Win. Relatively soon I will be selling most of my other rifles and focusing all my effort on the Sako & my new Borden custom in 300 WSM.

The next objective is to start hunting in full force, enough so as to wear the paint off those two new 300 WSM's. In contrast to the original 308 Win, they both have 1/2" recoil pads and NO muzzle brakes. I just can't get enough.


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.284 and .358

Taking it as bores, rather than cartridges, I changed it to the only two that you must have.

You may have others, if you must, but they are just frivolities.

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I'm glad you are very found of your 300-WSM. They look nice and shoot nice from what I hear. I have yet to shoot any short mags. I have thought about building one, just a thought.

I go back to thinking------300 or 7MM short mag. Yeah, I know about BC and gack. Then I wonder, would I like them more than my 30-06? Prolly not.
That's just being a rifle loony

Have a great day.


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I own a 7MM Rem Mag. I have no trouble SAFELY breaking 3000 FPS with 175 grain Partitions and 3100 FPS with 160 grain Partitions. But speeds kills nothing if bullets miss targets. I'll take accuracy over velocity, within reason, every time.

From pragmatic perspective, there are too many variables associated with killing animals. Were a 45 grain .22 Hornet to whack a ton Yukon moose in the head killing it instantly, it would not make the .22 Hornet a moose rifle. Were a 700lb elk struck square in the thorax with a 400 grain .45/70 round at 1800 FPS and wander a 100 yards before dying would not make the .45/70 an inferior elk round. In fact, were I to know that all of my shots would be within 150 yards, I'd buy a 22" barreled .45/70 and never look back. There ain't an animal that walks Earth that the .45/70 won't kill.

While these debates are academic, there is modicum of science contained therein. Why destroys important original equipment is immaterial. That that equipment is destroyed is. According to the science of biology, nothing lives but seconds sans heart. You might be able to double remaining lifespan sans lungs. Oxygenated blood to the topside organ is required to keep four hooves on the ground.

Just shy of a week ago I heard a guide say while he was quartering a bull that he'd much rather have a hunter show up with a .270 Win that he can shoot than a magnum that he can't. And that right there is the answer. It ain't what you use, it's all about how you use what you use.

So, captdavid, if you put a bullet from any suitable centerfire rife into organs that are essential for sending oxygenated blood to the topside organ of any animal, it will die. If you're intending on breaking shoulders before killing an animal, I'd go with heavy-for-caliber bullets. (Guides like shoulder shots. That way they don't have to track dead animals that refuse to accept the inevitable).

When I was older and a whole lot smarter and knew everything there was to know about everything there was, I up & went and bought a 7MM Rem Mag specifically for elk hunting. After all, I had read O'Connor and knew that Remington's Big 7 was designed to be a long range elk rifle, and that the Big 7 worked as designed. Now that I'm a lot younger and less knowledgeable about important stuff in life, were I accorded a life do-over I'd buy buy one and only one rifle: the best quality .280 Rem I could afford and never need another rifle.

Translating the sage words of that guide who was quartering a bull last Monday morning: it ain't what you use, it's how you use what you use.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by captdavid
Given similar impact speeds using the same bullet, ie Nosler Partitions or whatever, 160s in 284 and 180s in 308, does the larger caliber bullet kill better? It would seem that it would, but I wonder, if in the field, is there any practical difference? thanks, capt david


This is hard to answer,and I don't profess to be the last word on tis or anything;just my point of view cause we are in a grey area.....I can only tell what I have seen.I think bullet action has a lot to do with it....

From the standpoint of tissue destruction(mostly fired from 7mm and 300 mags cause that is what I have seen the most),I've traced bullet paths through elk killed with both,seen the destruction,and would say (guess)that the 30 destroys more tissue,or seems to....

..after a long stint with 270's and 7mm's on large buck deer, I whacked a big bodied Saskatchewan buck 350 yards across a field with a 165 Partition from a 300 Win Mag started at 3250 fps.....I was a bit surprised to see the damage and size of exit wounds. I have seen the same thing on other animals and bullets fired from 300 mags.

But does the 300 "kill" quicker or "better"? I suppose it should....but I have not been able to detect it from the standpoint of how far the animals travel,given similar hits and comparable bullet action, and considering that no two shots are precisely the same.......

I think this is because,all things being equal,the 7mm destroys "enough" vital tissue,penetrates well enough,and creates enough damage, that the animal simply cannot handle the trauma......and I think also this is because ballistics is "Physics",or science,and in contrast to what happens to cause an animal to die from a bullet is something else,hard to quantify in certain terms.

I'd say the animals is in tough straits regardless which of the two he is hit with.....

These are my thoughts and observations on the matter....all contrary viewpoints welcome.. smile


Bob,
I think those of us that have used the 7x57 have seen the same thing which confirms the adequacy of both 7mm caliber and general bullet integrity for the caliber, as being "enough".

John


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its how you shoot it for sure. Its also bullet choices. I just read a bunch of bullshit by Horace Gore in a magazine..... to many generalities for me to care for his writing.

I prepare for the worst case, and in this case I think the two rounds are very close, but I'd be going 284 personally and see how far I can get energy out of it. Enough energy.

Then I'd do what I had to, to get as close as I could.

Its all pretty damn simple though, take what you want, know its limits, then know YOUR limits in EVERY situation.

Believe it or not I passed shots for over an hour on a bull moose at under 75 yards because I never had a clean shot. Shots to the body at angles and such, yes, but not the clean sure shot I wanted.
But it worked fine, I got the neck/shoulder about 36 hours later with one clean shot.

I'd certainly not question a decent weight TTSX in either round for elk though. Shot within its energy and the shooters abilities on any given shot.


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