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The funny part is that Elmer usually did write about "just the facts"...



He had just shot five running jackrabbits with one shot in this photo....

He was a smartass for sure.

I'd drink Old Crow with Elmer before I'd drink Old Rip Van Winkle with Jack O...

I like Krusty the Clown better than J. Robert Oppeheimer. That puts me with the man with the Big Hat, nodding my head to the tall tales by the guy who put campfire talk on paper.

When I was a kid reading magazines in the 1950's I viewed both O'Connor and Keith as blindly opinionated people as many of the men of their generation were more so than now.

Now days it seems that a 338 is not needed to kill a deer or even an elk, as lots of elk have been killed with 270's.
So in hindsite O'Connors opinions are closer to truth.

Also, I remember reading Keith saying he had seen wounded game that had died in the woods without being found and he could tell they had been shot with 270's. To this day I can look at an exit wound and not tell what the caliber was, can you?

Witness the reproductive methods of possums.

He probably missed the marsupial course in college.....deferring to "darkies" and prying the fry got him the "F".

ratsmacker,

If you find that "Gun Notes" column where Elmer Keith wrote "that a 175 Nosler Partition in the 7mm Rem Mag was just about the perfect elk rifle/bullet combination" I would sure appreciate you passing on which year and column. I have read the 2-volume collection of "Gun Notes" and several times, and don't recall anything like that, but am always happy to be surprised.

Sadly, it never stopped him from continuing to write.

O

Boddington wrote that O'Connor didn't much care but Keith truly despised O'Connor.

O

Or...How earthquakes can be prevented with sheep's bladders?

Ive read both of them for quite a while, although Im not old enough to read them while they were still doing their thing. I own a couple books from each of them, and have read a number more .

One thing I find interesting is that while many people have called Keith a big bore fanatic he spent much time shooting, developing and inventing small bore magnums! Offering true small bore magnum performance, launching heavy for caliber bullets and speeds above and beyond normal rounds. His mind seems to have been changed thru time but early on he used and appreciated small bores much.

In his 1948 book on Big Game hunting he lists "the 270 Win is probably the finest small caliber commercial load made today" and other comments about its superiority for long range deer/sheep/goat hunting repeatedly. Yeah he himself hunted with different rounds but he definitely gave the cartridge its due even though it wasn't one of his favorites.

Another quote, "Any time velocity is over 3000 to 3200 feet at most, you are better off with more bullet weight, rather than added velocity". That sounds like a small bore magnum to me, say 7mm Rem with 160 vs 140grs??
He used the .264, .275/.276, .280 and 285 calibers with great enthusiasm for years. In OKH, Dubiel and Dubiel Magnums versions they were his finest stalking rifles. I dont know that those diameters are direct translations to today's bulets but they were below .308 and pushed bullets fast.

He also hated the 30-06, although stating it is the finest factory round for this or that. But its pretty clear he wasnt much of a fan after having some bad experiences with it early on. I think later he took that same line of thinking on the 270??


So even though the man spent his later years being much less forgiving of the smaller calibers at high velocity that's not really representative of his mindset and the way he made his meat while still a cowboy, guide and outfitter in the years before his writing career became his bread and butter.

The deer was wounded by another hunter and escaping, so Elmer gave it a go with his 44 and connected.
What is wrong with that, he put the animal down.

I'm 65 and grew up reading Keith and O'Conner. I enjoyed both but leaned towards Keith because he spent a lot of time and money experimenting with rifles,handguns and shotguns. Just look at all of the wildcat cartridges he (with others) developed. If Keith wrote something he believed what he wrote because he had tested it.
A lot of people think that the Winchester Model 70 is one of the best rifles ever built and Elmer had some input on it's design.
I also think that Elmer and Jacks feud was over blown. They even hunted together on occasion.

This group is: Top Row, L to R; Bill Edwards(Guns), John Amber(Gun Digest), Pete Kuhlhoff(Argosy), Warren Page(Field&Stream), Jack O�Connor(Outdoor Life), Elmer Keith(Guns). Bottom Row, L to R; Ray Ovington(Guns&Game), Larry Koller(Guns&Hunting), Tom Siatos(Guns&Ammo), Pete Brown(Sports Afield), Jack Seville(Sports Afield).

Quick Reply ued.

I always felt EK just didn't consider JOC the real deal. I'm guessing Keith liked all guns, just some better than others. My thought is he gave the .270 the raz because O'Connor liked it. That's always been my take. They my have hunted together but anyone that thinks their egos didn't crowd a room when together is kidding themselves.

The thing that sticks in my mind when reading Kieth is, when a bullet failed the cartridge got the blame.
I'm glad we live in a time with lots of good bullets to choose from but even now, choose an inappropriate bullet and well, you know.
Wonder how his writing may have sounded if all he loaded was Partitions and cast of course.

"Hell I Was There" is very good reading for those who don't understand what it was like when Elmer Keith was in Montana and Idaho and the surrounding area. As far as cartridges go, before the premium bullets and using the bullets people had to use back then, it took a larger caliber rifle to match what can be done with smaller calibers today. My first 264 was only a decent big game cartridge with the then cut on screw machines Nosler bullets, IMO. There wasn't any decent bullets available for smaller than .264 either.
Elmer Keith stated what was fact for him - then. Things may be different now, but to me the 270 is the one of the best coyote cartridges there is for the style of coyote hunting I like. (my brother-in-law says that if he were going coyote hunting he'd pick up his 06 with 150 grain bullets. And I've shot more coyotes with the 06 than any other cartridge. To me Elmer had more first hand experience than anyone who wrote, in his day, including Jack. Jack had to hire guides. Elmer didn't, he was a guide and saw a lot of hunting with a lot of different calibers.

The deer had been wounded by a guy with a .300 H&H, Keith finally stopped the animal at long range.......

Every time Elmer's 600 yard shot comes up there is a lot of confusion as to what happened because some people have never read it or don't remember the facts so they quote what they think what happened that day. Note that he hit the deer (not elk) twice. Once behind the jaw and once through the lungs. Also Paul Kriley had broke the deers leg before Elmer started shooting.

Here's what Elmer wrote;

Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, �Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I�ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.� Paul said, �You take the rifle.�
�I said, how is it sighted?�
He said, �one inch high at a hundred yards.� I told him to go ahead because I wouldn�t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn�t know where to hold it at 500.
I said, �You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.� Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.
When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They�d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, �Is there any harm in me getting into this show?� He said, �No, go ahead.�
I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don�t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, �I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.� There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him �I won�t be low the next shot.� Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I�d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, �I could hit him now, I think.�
�Well,� I said, �I don�t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.� He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, �I�m out of ammunition. Empty.� I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I�d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn�t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across. When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he�d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he�d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.
Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, �Did you get him?� He said, �Yes, he�s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.� Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I�d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I�d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, �Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn�t, never had that kind of shot at all.� There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.
I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, �Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.� After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, �Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck�s ribs.� Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn�t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I�ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.
Elmer Keith

In his 1948 book on Big Game hunting he lists "the 270 Win is probably the finest small caliber commercial load made today" and other comments about its superiority for long range deer/sheep/goat hunting repeatedly. Yeah he himself hunted with different rounds but he definitely gave the cartridge its due even though it wasn't one of his favorites.


The whole 270 thing with Elmer, was just his way of a Dig at JOC. There was no lost love between those two.

I'm just finishing up 'Hell I Was There' after not having read it completely for decades. One thing that I noticed was that smaller - .308 and under - failures were the result of being too small and weak, whereas failures with bigger cartridges just tended to show how resilient and tough the game was.