Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 7x57 or 375 holland and holland for plains game?

which one and why? would have to do double duty as a North Amercian deer rifle

You will get LOTS of help with this one. I like calibers like I like boobs, the bigger the better and especially if eland is on the menu. That said and all kidding aside, a 7X57, especially with today's modern bullets is perfectly suited to the task. I just like Christina Hendricks...

For plainsgame? Depends on where I am hunting. If I am in an area with dangerous game the 375 H&H would be my choice.

If I was hunting an area without DG the 7 by 57 is a fine choice, especially if you want it for deer hunting also.

Not on your list, but nothing to sneeze at: 9.3 x 62. Almost the thump of a .375, not quite the long-range reach, but it will certainly do the trick on most things that walk in North America, and it has a lot of history behind it in Africa.

7x57

I've done a safari with only the 375 that included plains game (don't they all?) I've done a safari with the 375 when the Mrs brought her 308. It is nice to be able to grab the 308 for the smaller stuff like wartys or impala and Mrs Blacktailer has used it on animals up to zebra which are tough critters.
OTOH I have used the 375 on deer, pigs and varmints in NA and it is not unpleasant and gets the job done.
The 375 will take care of anything on either continent, the 7x57 will take care of anything on either continent also but is not legal in most areas for DG and is certainly on the light side for big bears.
Pick whichever you are most comfortable with.

The question real boils down to how many safaris will you be going on in your life time? My guess you will be shooting more White Tail sized game in your life time than anything else and with the costs of hunting in Africa and in general, buying a second rifle is not a major expense. Buy a good 30-06 or 7mm RM and yea it will be a little to much for some and a little light for others but it will get the job done, the 7 x 57 is a good one, but its pretty much a hand loaders deal these days, as for brown bear and such, that too is maybe once in a life time for most!

Brian,

You didn't state if these were your only choices, or something you already have access to, etc.

I have used the 7x57, the .300 Wby, and the .375 Ruger (little speedier than the H&H) in Africa, all on plains game. All worked.
On bigger stuff, the .375 kills with a certain degree of authority, provided you can handle recoil and place your shots well. The 7x57 works well, as it has for many decades in Africa, and as JorgeI points out, there are great bullets available nowadays.
My favorite, for game up to and including Zebra, was the .300 Weatherby. Flat, fast, plenty of punch for the largest game, and with good bullets like the Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frame, a certain killer. Again, if you can handle recoil.

Now that I believe I am about done with African safaris, I seriously wonder of the .375 will ever see use again- certainly not here in NA for deer. And, the 7x57 is not my first choice as an ideal deer cartridge, at least for me, as big mulies in open Western country is my favorite pursuit. Faster, flatter cartridges, like the .257 Wby, .270 WSM, and yes, the .300 Wby, get most of the work.

Unless you are firmly committed to one or the other, IMO a .30 cal., from .06 to one of the fast .30 magnums, would make a better all-around choice. Read up on some of JJ Hack's comments on rifles for African plains game, and Craig Boddington's Safari Rifles II is a great read on just this subject.

This is about the silliest schitt Ive seen on the 'fire in a long time�.


The obvious answer is BOTH!

7x57




.375 H&H

Both.
and
just cause they're cool,
and you can!

I just used the 7x57 for the first time in the Limpopo Province of South Africa and it sure was good to me!

I can't say enough good about the 7x57 Mauser, here's more stuff this old 104 year old rifle took down for me.







In a week I will pick up the 375 and go after my first Cape buffalo... I can hardly wait!

7/57, 270, 280, 308, 30-06. With the very best bullets=no appreciable difference.
Forget the 375 for general plains game use.

Fly swatter or sledge hammer?

Both will kill flies just as dead.

Don't need a .375 for deer. (You've already chosen.)

I've taken 7/57, 270, and 308 with TSX or Interloct heavy bullets. Everyone worked great. It's all about bullet placement. 9.3x62 worked great on buffalo.

30-06 with 180 grain partition or a-frame bullets. 7-08 instead of 7x57. Rent a 375 from your PH when the time comes...

Either will work both in Africa and America. I've shot plains game with both and never had a problem.

Impala shot with a Ruger #1 in 7x57


Western Roan for with a Rem Model 700 Classic in 375 H&H


Personally, I have a soft spot for the 375 because if you ever decide to hunt dangerous game it is normally the minimum legal caliber you can take. Like the old saying goes, beware the man that only shoots one gun.

I use a 375 H&H for just about everything anymore for that very reason. I know where it hits and I know what it can do. Remember a gun that will kill an elephant will also kill a deer but the reverse isn't always true. And before anyone goes off about WDM Bell and all the elephants he shot with a 7x57 it has to be pointed out that was a different era and doing such a thing isn't legal anymore.

Great post, Pirate AND regarding Bell, not to mention the number he admitedly says he LOST because of the 7X57.

On my one hunt to Namibia, A PG hunt, I had an '06 and a 375 an meant to chose one or the other each morning on a whim-or-whatever. I started with the 375; I liked it and it performed superbly.

About half way through I mentioned to my PH I was going to switch to the '06 and he said, "why?" Stay with what is working so well. I came away with a great affection for this classic cartridge which, as I've said before, is The Great Cartridge--a blend of great power with a more than adequate trajectory, and very tolerable recoil.

As a PH I want every client that can shoot 30 caliber or bigger to use it.

Finding game is exponentially easier the bigger the holes are.

With this stated, if you cannot shoot a larger caliber well, it's a useless choice for any purpose.

The 375 also gives you the any angle every option capability on plains game. No need to wait on everything being perfect. .

The one thing that the 375 H&H gives you is the peace of mind.

For any shot within your range limitations, you know that for any shot, at any angle the 375 H&H will do the job.

Good thread gents. Another thought on the 375 H&H. A buffalo at twenty five yards and a kudu at 350 plus.....

I have run 4 poles on cartridges this year

It's simple

Girl = 7x57

Man = 375 H&H

Just to stir schit.

.30-06 and 180 gr Nosler Partitions.

nah, 3006 is revered at least by many. If you want to stir up schit try 300 Weatherby and Partitions :

I took a Weatherby Mark V in .340 Wby and the PH wasn't to keen on me using it. Did miss a shot at an oryx with it.

Used the same rifle on my first elk though.

Fixed it for ya jorgeI ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I�ve used a bunch of rifles on plains game chambered for a variety of cartridges. The smallest round was a .22-250 belonging to one of my PH�s, used for some culling, the but the smallest I�ve brought was a 7x57 and the largest a .375 H&H. They both worked well when a bullet that penetrated sufficiently (and all did) was put in the right place, as did every cartridge in between.

As I recall, all those cartridges have worked on deer too!

Count me in with the girls according to Ted. I'd choose the 7x57, or in my case, 7mm-08. Find a load for the 120 TTSX and go put a pile of critters in the skinning shed.

It'll also be a deadly whitetail round, which you're likely to use more often anyway.

This also sounds like a good reason to get both.

Good luck!

That sounds almost exactly like my first safari. I took a .300 and a .375 on a plains game hunt. The .375 was mostly because I had dreamed of hunting Africa with a .375 and wanted to at least take one animal with it. We had a long truck ride to the hunting area to discuss the caliber choice and I could tell that he was steering me toward the smaller rifle and even mentioned how well his 7 x 57 worked a number of times. He also owned a .375.

After the normal sight check, we had a bit of time before dark to take a look for game. I asked which rifle and he was quick to suggest the .375. Putting them all in the same hole may have had something to do with it. :)After the first day there was no way in hell they wanted to even talk about switching to the small rifle. I played dumb and asked what happened to all the talk about smaller rifles, and was told that (and I quote) "We say that to everyone, because if you can't shoot the big one it makes it easier to talk you into the small one. The bigger the better, IF you can shoot it". There may be a bit of "if it aint broke, don't fix it" involved too.

Somehow I accidently became a .375 for everything guy for awhile, although it was never planned that way.

For smaller plains game I would say 275 Rigby would be better in style and designation though it is basically 7x57 Mauser. For large game on hoof 9.5x73 would be better though it's often referred to as .375 Rimless Nitro Express Holland.

The .375 is truly the one cartridge to pick if you only have one rifle and want to hunt the world. With 250-270 grain bullets, it will have the same trajectory as a 7X57, but still has the power to take anything on the planet.

If there's dangerous game (buff and Elephant especially) in the area, then the .375 is really a no-brainer. I get a shudder up my spine when I think about how many times I jumped off the truck in Matetsi with a .22 Hornet chasing small plains game. If we'd run into a pissed off buff or elephant, I would have been dependent on my PH to save my butt.

For duikers, klipspringers, etc. the .375 with solids will do much less damage than the 7X57. For deer sized game and up, the .375 will kill all of them with authority. As far as using your .375 for hunting deer in North America, you'll always have an entrance and exit would, and it destroys less meat than most mid-caliber cartridges.

The downside is that ammo is more expensive, and the recoil is more than some folks can handle.

Exactly, well said sir.

My previous answer was basically a joke. On serious note from pragmatic point of view neither should be considered for your intended use. The evalutation of PMP-Denel site reveals that .30-06 or .300 Winchester Magnum should be chosen instead. Buying a rifle in given caliber is exactly like buying printer or glucose monitor. Always check price and availability of "print cartridges" and "testing strips" first.
You live in Wisconsin USA. Walmart does not seem to carry wallpaper but I bet every one you visit will carry .30-06 and .300 WinMag ammo.

I will vote for the 7 X 57 as a great choice for PG. With TSX's, Partitions, or the equivalent, it will take care of business. It is pleasant to shoot and does not beat you up to practice with. More practice will make you more confident. Shooting 40 rounds of 7 x 57 at the range is no sweat. 40 rounds of .375 H & H is more taxing, to be kind.

I would have to look at my hunting notes to come up with an exact figure, but have no doubt that I've seen far more plains game wounded with .375's and similar cartridges than smaller rounds. This hasn't been due only to the shooter not being able to handle the recoil, but harder-recoiling cartridges breaking more scopes.

I will also note that a few shooters find rifle that didn't make them flinch back in the U.S. does cause a flinch when they shoot it almost every day on a plains game safari. Have seen the shooting ability of several hunters decline during a 10-day or 2-week safari as their magnum started wearing them down.

Of course, none of this could ever happen to any member of the Campfire.

I have had hunters use a 375 for 3-4 days and then start shooting horrible.

This is a huge problem when the remaining days are limited and there is too much time spent looking for wounded or lost game.

I have more then a few times offered up my 30/06 because their rifle is " off" the results were back to good shooting and a great finish to the trip.

On occasion ( and I should not give up my secrets here in public) I have asked the hunter to check zero at the range. I also take the rifle to shoot myself to verify it with my shooting first. The offer is to reduce the recoil pounding for them. This is always a welcomed offer!

When I'm done I hand the unloaded rifle to the hunter who believes it's ready to go. At the " click" of the trigger when the rifle jumps off the bags its obvious what the problem has become.

It's a really nasty thing to do by me, however there is no argument about going to the 30/06 after this. They shoot my rifle off the bags and we go kill stuff again.

Two thoughts here. There are a large majority of shooters who do not flinch or jump at all with the 375HH cartridge. There are much harder recoiling rifles then this.

There has been a large majority who have had flinching with the 300 mags. Based on the cross section of hunters I have had in my camps, the 300 mags are by a very wide margin the most flinch inducing cartridges I have ever seen my hunters use. Actually, It would be a comfortable bet for me to say that less then 50% shoot the 300 mags without any care or concern of recoil.

The difficult part of this is that the owner of the rifle either does not know this and blames the scope, ammo or rifle. He may also have an ego issue so he will not accept switching to a smaller rifle to make hunting so much more fun.

Of course none of the campfire members fall into this category as John suggests!

Yip, have to agree with this. Spot on.

I like your style, most people show pictures of antelope ,cats , and other graceful animals, not you, a baboon ,a bush pig and a honey badger, no grace in any of them.......KUDOS to you.

Well maybe I'm just odd then, cause I can admit, that a flinch can occur when shooting a lot. I don't usually shoot a hundred rounds, with my 375H&H , in one outing. But I do a lot when shooting a sporting clays course, with my clays shotgun. As I get older I find I start having discipline troubles concerning trigger & gun control late in the round. It's like the yips in golf while putting. I just have no control over the shot. Drives me nuts. I'll go as far as admitting I've almost fallen out of the shooting stand before. LOL

With that said, I don't seem to have the same troubles while shooting, with a 10#+ 375H&H, 40 to 50 rounds at the range. Some bench but most off sticks. If I had to shoot that much on a plains game hunt in Africa my wallet would not be able to cover the fun. So I doubt I would have to worry about it.

I'm in the school that bigger is better when it comes to throwing bullets at animals. So my choice is and has been since the mid-90's the 375H&H for everything that I hunt here in the states. Although that will soon change with an addition of a 300H&H to the rack. But it won't be a mountain weight rifle either. I think most flinch and scope breakage comes from rifles that are to light in mass weight for caliber. I once owned a 700 mountain rifle made by Remington in an '06 that made me flinch every time I pulled trigger. Damn thing kick like a mule. And it did brake a fixed 4x Leupold to boot. I sold it to a fella that decided he need a real light rifle to hunt elk with.

Jack O'Conner suggested a 30-06 and a .375 would do it years ago. I replaced my 30-06 with a 7-08 as I got older and did not notice any less dead critters. It sure made my PH grin.

Many Americans like "crowbar" game guns and light as a "feather" rifles. While typical laddie would be best served with .30-06 occasional round of skeet or trap with Mossberg Ultimag and bunch of 3.5" shells would be good practice to get used to heavy gun recoil. The only downside is pump action of said shotgun so perhaps smoothbore 3" Marlin bolt shotgun would be a better choice.

I don't see the flinching problems apples and apples with a shotgun.

It's the moments of concentration with a rifle before the trigger is "pulled" that cause the thought of recoil that it is gonna hurt or "shock" you.

With a shotgun on clays it's so fast I don't think there is the same type of thought process or loss of trigger control. Heck maybe that's just how my brain works?

Jim,

Finn Aagaard said only about a third of his Kenya clients who brought .300 magnums could shoot their rifle well, and a Montana outfitter friend says 20%. The Montana guy is mostly guiding pronghorn and mule deer hunters who think the .270 or .308 they use back home for whitetails isn't enough for trophy bucks Out West.

Another Montana outfitter I know who packs hunters into the Bob Marshall Wilderness carries a .375 H&H. I asked if it was for grizzly defense, and he said, "No, it's to finish off the elk my clients gut-shoot with their brand-new .338's."

John,
Seems that there is at least some consistency with the guys doing this for a living then.

I may have been conservative with the less then 50% comment! The 300 mag in my somewhat humble opinion is probably responsible for more flinching problems then any cartridge in history.

When a guy shoots it good, it's a devastating beast of a cartridge. It is however equally devastating on both ends! Most guys can shot it good to great for a few rounds. I have not come across but a handful of folks that can pound away with it to be as good and comfortable as with a standard round.

I owned a 300 weatherby in my life, for about 3-4 years. Sold it 20 plus years ago and replaced it with this current 30/06. I'm not recoil sensitive, I also have a 9 pound Lott. I am not sure I could say this had I kept the 300 Weatherby and shot as much as I do the 30/06!

Dang it you two (John & Jim)....Stop!!! I'm not changing my build to an 06. I'm sticking with a 300 H&H MAGNUM.

I'd take the 7x57 with 175 gr Partitions, if i ever get to go it will be the .35 Whelen and 250 gr Interlokts.

Mike

I carry a 30-06 mostly in this stage in my life. I'm 45 these days and so far it has never left me in doubt.

Wise choice indeed. Looking at RWS/Brenneke 2013 catalog reveals five loads including affordable 'Basic' plus California compliant 'Nature'. What this means is one will be able to get ammo anywhere in the world though not 24hours a day like in 24hr Walmart in USA.

The recoil of the .300Win is very sharp, but its a killing machine.
I went ahead and fitted a small suppressor on the .300Win
The recoil is now equivalent to a .308Win and it absolutely destroys any life on the other side. Best piece of weaponry I have to offer as a rental.
Have a look at how small the can is I had fitted on the front. Weight of the suppressor is 9oz.

I will attest that shooting a rifle with a suppressor is a wonderful experience. It takes a good bit of the felt recoil away, and sure is easier on the ears. My kids used a 30-06 equipped with such in RSA and zero recoil issues. The suppression of the report also steadied them.

I'd hate to lug such a rig through the thick stuff all day, since it adds a tennis ball can to the end of the barrel, but I'd certainly have one for my rifle here in the States were it not such a hassle.

I like how PHs always assume that the clients can't shoot. I'm sure that there is a percentage who cannot so that must be fair.


While we're being fair, should I assume that;

All outfitters are shadey?

All guides are people that can't hold a regular job?

All booking agents are trying to get something for nothing?

That he will never spent as much on rifles as some of his clients spend on primers?

That being a control freak is admirable?

That if he has any decent gear, or decent ammo on his belt someone gave it to him?

That "This is Africa" forgives poor planning that would get a pump jockey ran off?

That all gun-writers will praise the advertisers products?

This painting with a broad brush is getting a little tiring.

As clients we are expected to give all these people the benefit of the doubt. It wouldn't hurt to fake a little faith in the client in the client once in a while.

I get what you are saying, and yes, you should assume that all outfitters are shadey, at least until you have satisfied your comfort through checking references, checking up on their history etc.
I don't think its a question of painting everyone with a broad brush.
Keep in mind that we see 100's of hunters come through, so for every one guy that you see on the range flinching at a caliber that he should not be shooting, we see 30 of them.
There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of when you have a flinch. It happens. I develop one every now and so often, and then I take myself to the range, give myself a good talking to, and try and sort it out. I don't like painful or sharp recoil, and don't understand how anybody can.
The hunters who handle big calibers well, and truly shoot them without any fear are few and far in between. I envy them. I'm not talking about when the heat is on. I'm talking about a guy who comfortably takes any rifle and shoots it effectively, accurately and consistently off the bench.
You will have to pardon us, Model70Guy, as we see so many of them, that we develop a notion to expect the worst.
I also believe by expecting the worst, it puts us in a position to see the signs early, and give us the confidence to address the problem.
Especially hunting in South Africa, you don't need a .378Weatherby for plains game. The good old .270Win, 30-06 , 308's will do just fine. If you can handle the .300Win, even better. Our animals are not bullet proof and will go down with any well placed shot. Due to the terrain, predators and their way of life here in Africa, maybe some of them have a tough streak, but a pill in the boiler room has proven to be effective.

Maybe JJHACK, can chime in here what his observations is regarding this point. The feeling that I get, and I hope that this does not stir the pot too badly, is that hunters feel they have a point to prove to their PH by shooting a large caliber. Shooting a Barrett 50Cal, and missing everything does absolutely nothing to enhance your reputation, I can tell you that. If you want to become a legend in camp, spend your time on the range, and practice with the rifle that you are thinking of taking on your trip. The best two shooters I have ever guided was a lady shooting a 25-06. She took from Kudu, Hartebeest to Springbuck. The other was a gentleman who used a 280AI who took from Blue Duiker to Vaal Rhebuck. They knew their rifles, and put a huge amount of time in on the range.
It was not the diameter of the bullet that mattered, it was where the placed them.

I am having a 300 H&H built also. I will not be changing my plans at all.

It will be real easy to load to 30-06 plus P levels or crank it up if needed.

If I am worried about recoil, I will grab one of my 30-06 improved rifles (aka 270 Win)

Marius,

This is a website forum filled with opinions. Everyone posting here has one. I'm not going to debate what I have seen for 22 years and over 400 clients. Men women, elderly, kids, handicapped, pro athletes, experienced hunters, and beginners all using different types of handguns, archery, muzzle loaders, rifles, etc. You live this every year just as I do.

The cross section of people and capability is pretty significant. My opinions are mine. I'm sharing them here. If somebody feels different about this I'm okay with that.

When I have a legal issue I ask a lawyer, a medical issue a doctor. Problem with the Bakkie a mechanic. A question about hunting I find an older wiser PH.

It's just common sense for me

Quickie question for Model 70 guy. Not meaning to stir the pot. How many times have you hunted Africa?

WOW, Model70Guy, I don't think anyone was saying that here????


CRS,Outstanding! ingwe, says the 300 H&H is "skookum"!


Jim, I for one appreciate that you do share your experience & opinions. They have never been misleading or false but have always been honest & experienced.

Huh?
That is why I asked for your opinion on the matter. Read the question.

Ja, ek verstaan

This was my answer

I understand.

The quickie answer would be 5 times; twice in South Africa, twice in Zimbabwe, and once in Mozambique.

The somewhat longer answer is that Africa is but one part of the world, and I've hunted 4 continents worth of it. This year focused mainly on Australia and my running total for this year is currently at 390 large animals, with the part that I consider most interesting being the 112 water buffalo that I shot on cull in the Northern Territory. That was quite an experience, and that particular opportunity would be hard to duplicate. Bear in mind that was one hunt this year and I've done 5 consecutive similar hunts. On the buffalo portion all shooting was done with a .458 including the incidentals.

My issue isn't what particular caliber someone recommends, as it would be hard to swing a dead cat in a gun-shop without knocking over several suitable plains game rifles. Its more the attitude that someone would presume to judge the abilities of someone he has never met before, and dictate what he is or isn't capable of.

That's fine when you seek out that advice. How about if you were just checking the air in your tires and the mechanic jumps in with opinions about what size, tread and inflation pressure you should be running, based on what the average guy needs. Are you still cheerful, or do you consider pointing out that it isn't your first truck, or tires and what you're doing has got you this far?

The answer your looking for is this - the PH is looking to see what the hunter is capable of doing, once he proves himself at the range the PH can get him on a great safari tailored for the hunter. He might only be capable to 50 yards or capable shot for 500. It do make a difference.

Yeah , and he's going to judge that by watching you shoot at a cardboard box at 50 or 60. The same one that he will refuse to shoot at.

It your test to meet, not his. He has the ultimate responsibility to the game, the area, the game department - you are just a strap hanger along for the ride sucking the gravy. When it is over, you go home, he has to live with whatever happens.

If you have a problem with that, just how do you get along everyday? Do not be fooled, you are tested everyday your alive and squawking to one who doesn't know you about your experience, is part of the test, but the wrong answers come from it.

I'm out.

You were never in.

When I go home I will have paid for everything, any mistake, by me or him, every lost opportunity. He doesn't have to live with anything.

So, lets get back to the OP's question. I would take both the 7X57 and the 375HH� if it were me.

Well, for what's it worth: I took the 375 H&H and 30-06...both worked just fine...JMHO

Taking both is logical.

Took both a .375 and a 7x57 on a plains game hunt. Twerent necessary but what the hell...it was fun!

Its important to have fun, or we wouldn't go in the first place.

In Ingwe's eyes I have to do something to make up for my 270 passion.

To the original ?, I would take both.

My 13 year old did pretty well with his 7x57 Walther Mauser and the 160 gr AB a few years ago.

My son and I did well with a 7x57 and a 375 in 2012.

Regarding 300 magnums, the 300WBY is one of the hardest kicking rifles, esp the ?Mark V.

My 300HH, on the other hand, truly is a joy to shoot.

Ymmv

Brian (OP):

Lots of opinions and I'll add mine, but want to ask you one question. Do you reload or plan to reload as this opens an entirely different world. But, based solely on your original premise of US deer and African PG and presuming you will get into reloading if not already doing so I would suggest the 375 H&H or 375 Ruger. Mostly because you can always load down but you can't always load up.

Just did a quick review of the Hodgdon Reloading Data web site for current data, the 7x57 max is a 170gr bullet at around 2300fps and the lightest bullet listed for the 375 H&H is a 200gr bullet at around 3000fps and the heaviest is a 300gr at 2650fps. Yes, there are some heavier weight bullets available for both, but I just wanted to use publicly published reference data.

Historically, the 7x57 has taken every animal in Africa including the "Big 5". However, under today's caliber, muzzle energy minimums/restrictions (including PG) in some countries and provinces in RSA, it may not be legal for all (biggest) of the PG species while the 375 H&H or Ruger, with appropriate loads, is legal for all PG and DG.

Then too, depending on where you hunt in the US the H&H with those 200gr maxed out is pretty damn flat shooting for use out west for pronghorn etc. Plus, if there is also the possibility of larger bodied game. elk, moose or bears in the US the H&H still would get the job done very well. If there is a possibility of hunting in the US for anything more than whitetail somewhere down the road a 375 might be the way to go.

Personally, eight trips to Namibia with the ninth planned for next year, all PG so far, and hoping to time things right if a PAC ele comes up - keep a bag packed for a short notice trip if my PH friend gets the green-light on one. We've used, 308 Win, 45-70/450 Marlin in lever and custom bolts in both, 375 H&H and 375 Ruger and once with 458 Win Mag. We (wife and I) have migrated to the 375 Ruger in the Alaskan configuration for the main reason outlined above i.e. moderate velocity 250-270gr loads for her keep the recoil level where she can shoot it all day at the range and I load some 235 TSX at 3000fps for long range baboons in the mountains and 270gr for everything else and a few max load 300gr solids for both of us just in case we get into trouble with ele in the area we hunt.

Biggest point to think about is to make 100% sure the caliber you are using is capable of meeting the muzzle energy minimums for the species you are hunting in the country or province you plan to hunt and to remember that calibers that might be legal for a "local" to use may not be legal for a "foreigner" to use. The last thing you would want to do is get caught in a Lacey Act violation as remote as that possibility might be.

OMG
1. The 7x57 will easily move a 175 at 2600.
2. There is a lot of misinformation about muzzle energy and cartridge minimums in Namibia. The game ranches own the game and manage it. You can use darn near anything if you can shoot well.
3. A 375 will work if shot well but that amount of power is not needed if one can shoot well.

RinB:

Ref comment 1 above - I agree. What I was attempting to do was provide the OP with an easily referenced on-line source to compare the two calibers he was asking about. The current Hodgdons web site doesn't list a 175gr bullet for the 7x57 and it also doesn't list any of the 350gr bullets available for the 375 either.

Ref comment 3 above - I agree again and this is why I mentioned/asked if the OP was currently a reloader or would contemplate getting into reloading to maximize the potential up-loading as well as downloading for both.

Ref comment 2 above - I believe you are in error regarding the Namibian muzzle energy and caliber minimums for Namibia. Both have been established by Namibian Conservation Ordinance 4 of 1975 pg 36. and is still the current law. It also establishes the game "ownership" and surrounding hunting controls for game animals. It has only been amended one time (1996) but mostly changed govt administrative procedures, the hunting laws are still the same.

Here is a link to the Namibian MET web site Nambian MET Look down under the "Acts" section and look for "Nature Conservation Ordinance 4 of 1975" and just below that is the 1996 Amendment.

The extracted data is:
� Smallest caliber allowed 7 mm (.284).
� Minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity)
� Big Game 5400 Joule (Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, etc.)
� Large Game 2700 Joule (Greater Kudu, Cape Eland, Oryx / Gemsbok, Red Hartebeest, Blue Wildebeest, Black Wildebeest, Hartmann's Zebra, Burchell's Zebra, Giraffe, Sable Antelope, Roan Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, Leopard, etc.)
� Medium to Small Game 1350 Joule (Springbok, Impala, Blesbok, Gray Duiker, Steenbok, Ostrich, Caracal, Black-Faced Impala, Red Lechwe, Damara Dik-Dik, Klipspringer, Black-Backed Jackal, Warthog, Cheetah, Nyala, Chacma Baboon, Game Birds, etc.)

I've taken the liberty to attached some file pages that have what I believe are the current caliber/MO minimums for several African countries. If any of this info is incorrect and someone can provide the actual source document/regulation I'll be happy to update the listing accordingly.

Whatever you show up with for caliber with Mike's friend, don't show up with a Blaser like I did.....I doubt I'd be welcomed back, even though mine went bang when I pulled the trigger. (Except when I forgot to chamber a round, DUH! LOL)

Don't feel too bad. This year he and I spent better than an hour stalking/crawling on our bellies to within 40yds of a nice old blue wildebeest. He had no clue we were there, full broadside. I'm sitting with a solid 3pt hold and leaning on the base of a small mopane tree....squeeze the trigger on my 450 and it just.....sneezes and the bullet hits the dirt halfway there....squib loaded one of my hand loads. Beasty just coughs and bounces away. Nobody to blame but me and great fun all the same.

Are you thinking of going back?

LOL....I had a lucky Hyena get away.....CLICK when I should have had a bang.

Sure do like Namibia and I'll get back there again, had a good time and I still have unfinished business with hunting for Dik-Dik somewhere.

M3
I am not going to get into a debate with you or the pages you cite. What I am trying to explain is that there is a gigantic gap between what is written and what actually takes place while hunting there.

When I was last in Zim I was offered the game rangers 338 to use on a problem elephant. I addition, a PH who worked there for years, encouraged his clients to use a 338 with 250 Nosler partitions on buff because he thought it worked better than a 375. I could go on but there is no point in doing so.

Lastly, the 270 Win is considered a 7mm in Namibia even though it is not a .284" bore diameter. At least that is what I was told by a number of folks who actually outfit there.

I was there as recently as 15 Sept and folks were shooting eland with a 25-06 camp rifle.

RinB:

Lots of folks don't follow the laws here in the US either. Question comes down to what happens IF someone gets caught and the possible penalties they could encounter in that country and then opening themselves up to additional US Lacey Act violations/prosecution.

"Locals" can often legally do things that foreign tourist hunter cannot. Examples. Namibia does not allow handguns to be temporarily imported into the county - therefore handgun "trophy hunting" is not allowed. However, if a "local" has a handgun permit they can use it to take "game animals" for food or to put down wounded or injured animals etc. Second example in Namibia I can give is a "foreign" tourist can temp import a semi-automatic rifle for competitive sanctioned shooting events, it is not legal for that same tourist to use that same rifle to hunt with. If a "local" has a permit and owns that same semi-automatic rifle they can use it to take animals for food or pest control etc.

What IF something goes wrong and the hunter and PH are "caught" violating a law or worse yet someone is injured or killed. Do you really thinks that same PH or Game Scout that KNOWINGLY put you and himself into that situation is suddenly going to now become a moral and ethical person and take full responsibility and potentially loose his license and livelihood or toss you under the bus. Bottom line is, either knowingly or unknowingly you still violated the law and are still subject to it and the associated penalties.

The laws are what they are and everyone has the free choice to follow them or not and live with the consequence if something goes wrong or they get caught. Imagine the sh#t storm that will happen if someone is injured or killed. Free choice.

Edited to add:

This can cut the other way too. How about a client who shows up with a rifle that he/she either knowingly or unknowingly is under a particular country's published standards/regulations. Then this client either asks, expects or demands the PH let him/her to use it anyway and flatly refuses to use a suitable/legal loaner rifle. This client is thereby directly putting the PH in the situation of putting his license/livelihood in jeopardy or walking away from the hunt completely and lost income.

Again, free choice by all parties but, why not just follow the published laws and be done with it. Lower risk and everybody wins or at least greatly reduces potential risks/problems for all.

Do you serious think any American is going to be prosecuted under the Lacey Act because they used an "illegal" cartridge to kill a kudu or buffalo?

Maybe you know of some such case. If so, I sure would like to hear about it.

Mule Deer:

Do not have any personal knowledge of any such case that I can provide a name, date and details of. No more so than someone can claim there has never been any such prosecution be it locally within a given country or back in the US under Lacy - trying to prove a negative.

My only point is that the laws, agree with them or not, are on the books. Every hunter/client and PH/Outfitter has the right to choose to comply or not - it is their free choice to do so. As is commonly said, "ignorance of the law is no excuse" when/if someone gets caught.

Hope everyone chooses wisely but it all comes down to personal choice, personal hunting ethics and a willingness to accept the consequences for a poor choice - as remotely possible as they may seem to be.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions about a couple of things.

Mule Deer (John):

Just out of curiosity, what are your views on hunters traveling to foreign countries and complying/not complying with that countries hunting laws?

Personal knowledge of any such case that I can provide a name, date and details of;
I'm confused. Does this mean you've never heard of any such case or you don't have the name to the case?
As to ethics, if your PH is handing you a .243 after stumbling on a 60+" kudu or have a bongo 20 yards in front; you're not going to take that shot because you're holding a 243?
I would bet theres 1/2 dozen guys here that'd run them down with a dull knife much less a smaller caliber.

To the OP, I'd ask my PH which he has more ammo of and go with that, just in case the airlines perform their magic. Personally prefer the 375 H&H.

Richard:

�Does this mean you've never heard of any such case or you don't have the name to the case?�

I have heard of several second, third and fourth hand �stories� of US guys getting caught violating RSA and NAM firearm caliber hunting limits. To the tellers� knowledge they just resulted in local fines or bribes and local confiscation of the trophy and meat. The tellers� didn�t relate if there was any US prosecution or not. Still doesn�t remove the �possibility� of it as remote or unlikely as it might seem. Just like I�ve heard �stories� of guys bribing game scouts in Zim because they shot and wounded buffalo and elephant and other assorted game that where never recovered so they could still fill their tag. Can I personally �verify� any of those stories, no.

Or a story about a PH that offered 100% guaranteed success on leopard hunts. His racket supposedly was that he would live trap leopard for the local cattle ranchers and moved them to holding pens. When a �client� showed up he�d make a big show of baiting and sitting in blinds for a few days and then near the end of the �hunt� he would tell his workers to go drug a cat and have it laying in the sun high up on a kopje or tree limb they had been baiting at a specific time. PH and �client� would just happen to drive by this area a little bit after this specified time and the PH would just happen to �spot the cat asleep� and the client should shoot it right away. How the �cat got out of the bag� so to speak was the PH got drunk at a public event and started bragging about how stupid his last �client� (American) was. He said the cat was set up high on a kopje with his head and front quarters showing. They drive by, he tells the client to hurry up and shoot before his leopard gets away. The client cleanly misses the cat with his first two shots, one over his head and the other the rock directly under and he finally hits it with his third. Did I see this actual event happen? No. Did I hear this first hand from the PH�s mouth? No. Did it actually truly happen? You decide.

Just above a poster says he was in ZIM and was offered the game rangers 338 for a PAC elephant and was recently in Namibia and hunters were shooting eland with a 25-06 camp rifle. Did I personally see it, no. Does that mean it didn�t happen just as he describes? No. Are either of these examples in compliance with the respective countries published game laws? I don�t believe so. Do I personally care what they did or didn�t do? No. Their choices and actions are their responsibility and none of my concern.

To your second question regarding ethics and 60� kudu and bongo me holding a .243. Short answer is no. Primary reason is I've already taken a 60" kudu in 100% compliance with the Namibian game laws. PM me with your email address and I'll email you a photo along with a copy of the Namibian Fields Gold Medal cert with the measurement. Second, you might think I splitting hairs and that is fine, but you didn�t say what country I was in and while it may not make a difference to others it does to me. So, kudu � IF I was in NAM, ZIM, or RSA me personally no. Other countries maybe depending on distance and shot angle and bullet type (cup & core or TSX). Bongo � Since you didn�t specify the county and since they are normally �found� in central African countries and the only ones I have info on I�ve posted above, my response would be ETH yes, and I don�t know into which class they specifically fall in CAR and I have no idea what the hunting laws are in DRC or any of the other countries they �normally� are found. In those, if I was going to hunt in those countries I would try to do some research on the laws before hand and hopefully have the conversation/email exchange with my PH regarding the laws before I got there. Last though on the point � I�m not sure I would personally take a .243 at all. If there is a possibility of any kind of DG in the area I personally would take a rifle of .375 larger anyway so the odds of me personally even having a .243 in my hands is nil.

I posted my opinion, I provided a summery sheet of the various countries that I had info on and I provided a hard link directly to the Namibian MET web site so everyone could read the laws directly for themselves. I can also prove a copy of the current RSA Norms & Standards for hunting in pdf format and probably find the link directly to the RSA govt website I pulled them from when they were officially published in 2011. I have those documents and links to those two countries because that is where I have hunted in the past and intend to continue hunting in the future.

I�ve posted the info for those whom may not even be aware regulations even exist. What �actually goes on� in each country, I really don�t care nor have any control over. My hunting ethics are mine and mine alone. I don�t really care if anybody else agrees with me or not. I really don�t care if anybody else makes a personal choice to follow the laws of a foreign country they are hunting in or not. For those that might opine that a foreign countries hunting laws are inconsequential and can be either complied with or disregarded as they themselves or their PH see fit � fine. I would hope those same individuals will have the same views regarding foreign hunters coming here with the same attitude about personally deciding which of our hunting/game laws they decide to follow or not.

Last two comments I intend to make on this thread. My grandfather once told me when he first took me hunting at age 10. He said, �always remember, everything you have in your life can be taken away from you except one thing, your integrity. That you and you alone chose to loose.� The last is the old axiom that the definition of �character� is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Have I always lived up to those, no. Do I still try, yes. What everyone else does and the choices they make are on them.

To all, good hunting wherever you go and however you decide to it.