24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
C
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
C
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/chronograph.html

Quote
From the velocity that my Oehler 35P records for the middle charge (2,649 ft/sec), I subtract 1/12 of the fourth difference � 1/12 of -26 ft/sec equals -2.2 ft/sec, and subtracting this negative figure is the same as adding it as a positive figure, so 2,649 ft/sec plus 2.2 ft/sec equals 2,651.2 ft/sec.


Anybody understand why he is using 1/12? That is the only part I can't wrap my head around.

GB1

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,481
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,481
Makes the head hurt, doesn't it? My guess---and ONLY a guess---is that the fourth difference is derived from the third difference, and 3 x 4 = 12. If there had been one more shot added to the analysis, there would have been a fifth difference derived from the forth difference, and 5 x 4 = 20, so you would have divided by 20.

I am just GUESSING. I like math in general but statistics does make my head want to explode.


Don't be the darkness.

America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
C
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
C
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
I think it may be a simple means to approximate the fourth root of 26 which is 2.25. The standard deviation is the square root of the sum of the positive differences. SQRT(549) = 23.4. There is obviously nothing wrong with his chronograph if his adjusted MV to simulate 5 shots through analytical statistics is going to be only +2.2 fps for the middle load. Keep in mind he is trying to keep it simple. Run the same thing through Excel's regression analysis tool and you get a standard error of 2.75. Close enough. I still don't understand the 1/12 part though.

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Originally Posted by Ken Howell - Your Chronograph Can Tell You More
Mathematicians will recognize this as an application of the familiar (to them, not to me!) "method of least squares." (I've seen the term used � 'nough said.) The rest of us can use it whether or not we know what to call it or how it works. We know that we get variations � from one round to the next � that we can't reduce to rigid uniformity or consistency, but with this simple routine, we can use those variations to tell us something that's useful for us to know.

I'm not smart enough to know whether this notion is sound or stupid, but I suspect that the "least squares" method can also be helpful to improve the usefulness of the data that you get from a chronograph that isn't as good as an Oehler.


It's one thing to apply a statistical method to data and another thing to know if that method produces useful results, which Ken seems to be saying he doesn't know. In general, 5 shots is too small of a sample to even determine average velocity accurately as Ken then demonstrates in the remainder of his article.

Wikipedia Least Squares

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
C
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
C
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
First and foremost, Mr. Howell did a great job with the article. He clearly states this is how it works but the guts are for mathematicians (that apparently also shoot). I use statistics in my job but the topic itself is broad and my practical use is narrow (statistical sampling). And as MacLorry suggests, one should read the entire article for it is not until the end he gets into average velocity overall.

But YAY! This is going to be TMI but I figured out the 1/12 part. Var(x)=(1/12)(b-a)^2. Also known as Uniform Distribution, which is a probability theory. I just needed to keep researching so I could get back to working again.

He is doing the (b-a) part in the chart, which is fine. If you do (b-a)=26 and follow his instructions you get 2.166667, which he is rounding to 2.2 fps. However if you do the (b-a)^2 instead you get 56.3333. 56.33333/2.166667=26. At 95% confidence level you will get about the same t-test = 17.6 fps using regression analysis. You don't need the tables anymore because we have smart calculators for that now.

So to sum up he is stating with 1 shot for 5 different but "uniform" loads one could expect with 95% confidence that the variance of his chronograph will only be a one sided 2.2 fps for the middle load. But one could expect as much as 17.6 fps to be normal variance for a whole string of shots (actual velocity). So long as the regression line and analysis (including the F-test is less than .05, which is the case) is not out of the ordinary the prediction is valid as far as statistical analysis goes. Also, can say with confidence that he has a very good chronograph smile.

I have used Mr. Howell's method and found that my chronograph is off within 1%, which corresponds with its advertised error rate, compared to my countless strings of shots I have recorded over time that comes to the same conclusion through trajectory validation in the field. Remember, Mr Howell is referencing Homer S. Poley who in certain circles is a legend in exterior ballistics. Mr. Powley's technical memorandums are hard to find.

Anyway, I appreciate the replies and this has been interesting.


IC B2


Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

646 members (12344mag, 1234, 007FJ, 10ring1, 160user, 10gaugemag, 59 invisible), 2,866 guests, and 1,293 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,190,574
Posts18,453,952
Members73,908
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.060s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8091 MB (Peak: 0.8708 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-04-19 00:28:20 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS