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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
I admit to being a recoil weenie, the reason my only .222 is chambered for the standard cartridge--though the rifle's still a Sako L461.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 |
Im liking the deuce mucho. It has become my #1 go to for gophers.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
It's more than a living, it's a good living. Sounds like a great time. Beats the hell out of the auto plants, nuclear plants, steel mills, refineries, etc. that I have spent far too much time working in.
I love da U.P.and love some good grouse also. There are some woodcock where in hunt in Alpena (Thunder Bay, NE Lower), but we pretty much only kill deer/ coyotes there. I did take a grouse with a 45 Colt on a perfect head shot 5-6 years ago.
The woodcock like to fly up in my face in the dark and scare the hell out me on my way to my treestand. Even when I know it's coming, I sometimes jump a little............grin
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
Tom,
Yeah, it's a good one for gophers, though I did shoot a few PD's with mine this year. Dunno if I showed my Sako to you yet, one of the Stutzen-stocked ("Mannlicher") models with a 20" barrel. It's just right for a "walking hayfield varminter."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 |
No, you have not shown that one to me.....I do love me the little Sakos....just don't use them cause the buck toothed varmint guns get 'abused' by most any standard.  Gotta save the pretty guns for Shrap.... 
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
2muchgun,
I put in my time in some other jobs as well, but got lucky and didn't have to after 30. Was a ranch-hand, oil rig worker, spike-pounder on the Burlington Northern, and worked on a custom-cutting crew for 6 summers, mostly whacking wheat and barley but also some safflower. Still have my hard-hat from the oil-field days hanging on the wall of my office.
But also got lucky in the only really full-time job I've ever had except writing. Was the map-maker for a history/archaeology research firm for about a year and a half, which like hunting/gun writing got me into the field frequently, in interesting country.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
I saw John's Stutzen.
It was bigger than I thought it would be.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 |
He always liked you best....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
Travis,
That's because it hasn't been circumcised.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,365
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,365 |
drover,
Thanks for listing your objections.
Before going further, let me explain my methodology a little more. Instead of averaging the maximum velocities of ALL load data, I averaged only the fastest velocities from each company�s data for each cartridge. This provides the best idea of the potential velocity of each cartridge, rather than including data for less suitable powders.
I also wanted to compare pressures taken with the same type of equipment from each company, in order to compare apples to apples. Hodgdon�s top 40-grain velocities in the .223 were taken with copper-crusher equipment, while all their .204 data is piezo, so I didn�t include their data.
As for the 25 fps/inch adjustment for barrels longer or shorter than the standard SAAMI 24�, that�s pretty much the industry standard. But to be fair, I went back and averaged the results of handloads from the 22� and 26� barrels on my two present bolt-action .223�s, and the result turn out to be a slightly faster than when using the 25 fps adjustment, though the difference was under 10 fps. This tends to validate the adjustment.
I also went back and listed every present source of data I could find for 40-grain bullets in the .223, including the fastest velocities regardless of barrel length. I own all the latest manuals from Barnes, Berger, Hornady, Norma, Nosler, Sierra and Speer, but looked up Accurate, Alliant, Hodgdon, Ramshot and Vihtavuori on the Internet. Only Barnes and Norma didn�t list 40-grain bullets in the .223.
One anomaly stuck WAY out: The fastest listed velocity in Speer�s latest (14th) manual for 40-grain bullets was only 3557 fps. Even from the 22� barrel of their test rifle this seems very slow, since the next lowest velocity, 3674 fps, was from Hodgdon�s copper-crusher data. But Speer is one company that uses a pressure-barrel to determine max loads, then chronographs the data in a factory rifle. I don�t regard this as valid pressure/velocity data, but for the sake or your argument included it in the average, which turned out to be 3744 fps�which still averages higher than the top 40-grain velocity from all data for the .204.
You may find it interesting that the two companies that tested the .204 in 26� barrels and the .223 in 24� barrels, Berger and Nosler, list a higher 40-grain velocity for the .223, despite the 2� barrel advantage for the .204. (Oh, and the higher SAAMI pressure for the .204.) In the Berger manual the difference is 44 fps in favor of the .223, and in the Nosler it�s 45 fps.
Since the lowest top velocity I could find with 40-grain bullets in the .223 is Speer�s 3557 fps, I am very curious where you found two loads that averaged 3553 fps.
Thank you again for your detailed answer. In my original post on this subject I cite using the Hodgdon on-line manual for comparison of the 204 with 40's and 223 with 40's and also cited only using PSI for both cartridges, also the data was the "max average load". Here is the data - 3667/3456/3390/3659/3496/3666 - total 21334 divided by 6 = 3555 fps. It is apparent that Hodgdon does not have any issue with using data from both different measurement sources since they make it available to the general public. Since you choose to exclude the Hodgdon data this skews your results. Which makes another question arise - how would the general public know which method was used in any load data? Obviously Hodgdon, and I suspect other providers of load data, mix the two methods so without having gunwriter privileges to this info how is the general public to know which method was used and does it really matter? This brings to mind my mother's old saying - don't believe what you read or hear and only half of what you see. In other words be skeptical, not only of the statements of others but also of your experiences. Good advice IMO. Also I remember reading a statement by one of the gunwriters (perhaps you)it went like this - (this is a paraphrase since I cannot give an exact quote) Do not read just what I say, pay attention to what I don't say. Good advice no matter who wrote it. In this discussion there have been a lot of things not said which is why I keep pressing for more definitive info. Let me close by saying this. I can care less if someone prefers the 204 over the 223, my choice is as obvious as yours and what others choose is ok with me, that is why there are so many different cartridges. If someone wants to say - the 204 using 32 gr bullets recoils less than the 223 using 50 gr bullets I have no issue with that - that is a fairly reasonable general statement. What I do have a problem with is statement such as this - the 204 recoils less that the 223. That is a blanket statement with no supporting data which is misleading. It is as misleading as the statement you keep referring to about 2/3 of the responders agreed with you they could see more hits using the 204 than the 223. There is zero supporting data for these statements since we have no idea of the bullet weight, powder charge, rifle weight, stock design, conditions the shooting is done under - without this information the statements are completely invalid. The only way to have a true test would be for it to a blind test with the shooters not knowing which cartridge they were shooting and using identical rifle shooting the same weight bullet. drover
223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.
24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
So you chose only one source of handloading data, and then included every load, not just the fastest ones? That isn't skewed? Give me a break.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,365
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,365 |
So you chose only one source of handloading data, and then included every load, not just the fastest ones? That isn't skewed? Give me a break.
I have no idea how you came up with that scenario. Perhaps I am the one who should be saying - "give me a break". Re-read my posts - I included ALL the max velocity loads or both cartridges listed in PSI in the Hodgdon data. I then added them and averaged them. In my second post - I used only the highest velocity load listed in the Nosler manual for calculations since you questioned the average speed of the of the Hodgdon data. I do not know how much clearer that can be. How you can interpret that as skewed I have no idea. But once again you are circumventing that for practical purposes there is little, if any, difference in recoil when using 40 gr bullets at, or near, top velocity in both cartridges. drover
223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.
24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
Got interrupted, but to continue I didn't realize how little you know about pressure-testing. No company I know of has used copper-crusher testing for a number of years. Instead they use either strain-gauge or piezo, partly because they're generally more accurate and provide more information, and partly because they're a lot quicker.
Consequently, the data that still appears in CUP is old data, and not only probably isn't as accurate, but doesn't include the latest powders. It usually appears for cartridges that have been popular for a long time, because the company doesn't want to take the time away from electronically testing newer cartridges and powders. This is because handloaders are clamoring for the new data, so the electronic data for older powders gets squeezed in here and there.
Also, NONE of the Hodgdon PSI .223 data for 40-grain bullets is even over 50,000, when the SAAMI maximum for the .223 is 55,000 PSI. It doesn't even approach the potential of the cartridge. I don't know why Hodgdon does this with the .223, though I have my suspicions. Might have to ask the head ballistician next time I talk to him.
ALL of the Hodgdon .204 40-grain data is over 50,000 PSI and a lot over 55,000, because the SAAMI limit 57,500 PSI. So you were indeed comparing apples to oranges.
In contrast, all the other data from seven other sources that I added in is electronic, not copper-crusher, for BOTH cartridges. As a result comparing it is far more valid than comparing the data from ONE company that doesn't use the same pressure standards or equipment for both rounds.
And you also figured the recoil energy of both rounds from your limited, skewed data.
You continue to astound me. What company do you work for?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,365
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,365 |
The Hodgdon data is from their current on-line data, the Nosler data is from their current on-line data. This is data that is available to the general public. Since you are a gunwriter you may have access to information not generally available, however to attempt to belittle someone for using the public data is should be beneath you.
The blanket statement that is usually given is that the 204 recoils less than the 223, this is totally incorrect unless it is quantified.
I could go through each manual available and do the math but given your propensity to find fault with any data I present, or the method the company used to obtain it, I doubt that it would have any effect on your opinion on the subject.
But again the subject has changed from felt recoil to how reloading data is measured. It is still my contention that given max, or near max, with the same bullet weight (40 gr) the recoil differences are so near equal as to be insignificant.
drover
223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.
24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
I just used your technique (averaging the top velocity from ALL 40-grain handloads) with the Nosler data for both rounds. The .204 averaged 3627 fps and .223 averaged 3658 fps--and I'll mention once again that the .204 data was from a 26" barrel and the .223 from a 24". This follows the overall trend I found when crunching data from a bunch of sources, not just ONE.
You started this discussion with a snide remark about how the .204 apparently "defies the laws of physics." You made that comment based on very skewed data showing the .223 produced less velocity than the .204 with the same bullet weight, when the opposite is true.
I don't really care how you personally perceive the recoil from the two rounds, or even how anybody else does. This discussion between you and me didn't start because of that. Instead it started because you attempted to prove, with a very limited and imperfect source of ballistics, that the .223 recoiled less.
I have demonstrated several times, with a much wider selection of data from every source presently available, that the original numbers you used to calculate recoil were not representative of .204 and .223 muzzle velocities. You apparently can't accept that, which itself is an example of defying the laws of physics.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,075
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,075 |
Also, NONE of the Hodgdon PSI .223 data for 40-grain bullets is even over 50,000, when the SAAMI maximum for the .223 is 55,000 PSI. It doesn't even approach the potential of the cartridge. I don't know why Hodgdon does this with the .223, though I have my suspicions. Might have to ask the head ballistician next time I talk to him.
Fear of some jack leg starting at the max in Lake City brass I bet! Mike
God, Family, and Country.
NRA Endowment Member
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884 |
Hey, as long as we're dancing around the subject--
what 223 load with 40 grain bullets will get me the highest velocity around 55k psi?
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Posts: 37,019
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,019 |
My 14 twist Hart/722 .22-204 and my PacNor/700 .204 are of similar weight. The .22-204 likes maxed out 40 gr. bullets (half MOA). Right now, I'm shooting Hornady factory ammo in the .204 (half MOA). That ammo shoots so well, I've not yet reloaded for it although I'm set up to do so.
Shooting the two gives nearly identical sensation. Almost no recoil and near instant bullet strike. With either one, I can watch the bullet impact the target or critter, even with 10X scope.
If I didn't know which one I was shooting, I'd be unable to tell them apart by range/field performance or recoil.
DF
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,472 |
Did I ever post the picture of the deer I got on the way to the range??? ![[Linked Image]](http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Deer/bigbuck2.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379 |
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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