Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Why Use Large Bore For Deer?

For which I'll be eternally grateful...

I can accept what you say Pappy .
However lets go down the list starting with hunting being a game of one upping .
I been at this a very , very long time at just about every level one can think . From retail sails , to manufacturing to , the submitting of laws . So to say im not knew to this would be an understatement.

So let me ask you this . Take some time and read topics you can on big game hunting . Not just modern muzzle loading but hunting in general . don�t just read what interests you , but actually read any and every topic you can . What I have concluded is that none of us have the same opinions even though we may have things in common . Hunting has truly became a sport for most and not a necessity .
Sadly its became a game of one upping . IE biggest buck , Giant elk , longest kill shot . Endless products from sents to camouflage, Anything to give that edge over the game we hunt and the fools who chose not to use the company X product .
I was told one time ?? I don�t remember if it was here or on another board . But I was told that I did not understand how people had to hunt in the east . That they were confined to small plots of private land or face a mass of hunters on what little public land there was . This same person then went on to inform me that they had to have a gun capable of greater performance and accuracy at longer ranges . For if they did not , then one of the other 5-10 hunters setting in the same location would get the shot .

In the off season its about minute of accuracy and posting targets .most of the long term folks here know me . I have posted target and photos achieved from my flintlock. Most will also tell you that I like to give people sh#$ for shooting off a bench vs. off hand .
is that still not one upping , ya it is .


Less folks in the woods :
I beg to differ sir .
Here it was actually a traditional muzzle loading group which petitioned the State game commission in 1989 to open hunts for general muzzle loading . I was part of that group and can tell you the reason we petitioned, was because we did not have the numbers of folks purchasing muzzle loading stamps to justify more opportunity .

This resulted in a number of areas defined along more traditional lines and areas defined more liberally. That worked with little problem tell the late 1997 . Around that time peoples started requesting more and more allowances in the general hunts as well as acceptance into the more traditional areas . I guess they though the hunting was better ?? I don�t know ..
But there was such a up roar that the commission in 2008 closed down the general season and went to more restricted hunts . They then Went to public comment , which favored keeping the general season closed .
if not for the governor we would not have a general muzzle loading season today .
The commission however countered saying that keeping the season would demand less opportunity

In 2008 it all came to a head Toby Bridges filed his lawsuit over scopes and the states laws restricting modern technologies in the muzzle loading season . I was asigned to submit information to the state commission supporting their reasoning . Let me tell you sir , that wasn�t hard to do . The internet is full of people touting how effective and progressive their guns are . a lot of times even the manufacture own advertising provided what was being ask for .
When all was said and done the gentleman standing to my left said the same thing you are concerning the effectiveness of the modern design .
My reply to that was ; Who sir is then wrong , is it the manufactures and their advertising, is it these gun owners or the comments made and documented in the papers you hold in your hand ?.

the result , you have what we have now . No traditional designated areas . The modern rifles are aloud but we also have heavy restrictions . Toby"s scope issue.......??? well we dont allow magnification scopes in the general muzzleloading hunts .

The numbers of hunters participating continues to fall . hell I don�t even hunt in the muzzle loading hunts frankly but for a couple of times , I have never hunted in them . The real opportunity is in the general any weapons season right along with the center fire folks when near the whole state is open and you can use what ever you want with no restrictions . to include smokeless muzzleloaders amd 70X20000 scopes or a sling shot if you want ..

Funny part about it . as the numbers drop , there are less and less folks in the woods . As tag sales drop season get closed . Which means the #1 comment I hear from modern folks �More time in the woods �
Well ?????not sure just how that works .

Ill close this real quick about scopes .
Let me say that every center fire rifle I own , has a scope on it .
Im not that old , in my late 40 , pushing 50 . I have worn glasses all my life and in the last 2 years or so I have noticed my eyesight getting alot worse .
. I however am of the opinion that this just means �MY� effective range is closer .
If my eyesight gets so bad that I need a 4 X32 scope just to be able to see a kill zone the size of a basket ball at 50 yards , then most likely ill also have far greater things to worry about then if I killed a deer or elk that year .
Now that being said . I, did , do and will support the handicap designation which does allow folks with Doctor verified medical conditions to get exceptions to the laws .

So to close this very long essay � I cant spell for crap anyway � let me say this. Its comes down to ,support me and ill support you situation between hunters . Which means over all we support everyone. If we don�t , as hunters numbers drop , and those special seasons close . Eventually you end up with a single season . Its length based on numbers. As those numbers drop , those special seasons will come back . But the majority of us wont be able to afford them Or established policies where you have to gain points or put into a lottery in order to be able to go out and hunt big game

I hope I don�t see it in my life time . But I can see it coming as our state moves more towards managing for trophy game ..

So while I can accept some of what you say and respect your opinion, my experience differs .
I have grown tied of arguing this point as it does little good . So im content to set out in the shop , hunched over a plank of wood , cussing myself for taking to many orders again this year LOL vs spending endless ours standing in front of a game commission volentering my time
So be safe sir

Agreed.
However who is tell who to get a life ?
The ones demanding and forcing acceptance
Or the ones who set the standards long ago ?

So while I would agree with your premise , do we really need to go back over the whole blank / general statement thing ?

That's it in a nutshell Cap. It's always rubbed me the wrong way.

Captchee, my friend, I've been at this since the early '60s, and I doubt that there are many here who are more widely read on the subject than I am.

You clearly put a lot of of time and thought into your post, but nothing you wrote explains how what someone else uses to hunt with affects your hunting experience. The preoccupation with gadgetry and B&C scores and such is largely a result of marketing hype on TV and in magazines (most shows and articles are just ads disguised as content). I find that stuff kind of annoying and a sometimes just plain silly, but I don't let it impact what I do. If some goober wants to go through the woods dressed as tree and leaving a vapor trail of doe pee, that's between him, Jesus, and the State Game Commission. It's not my place to criticize him or correct his thinking; time and life will probably take care of that. As long as a person stays within the law and doesn't place others safety at risk, it's none of my business and I certainly won't let it impact my enjoyment. I'm not in competition with anyone.

I stand by my belief that a lot of the fuss over special seasons, restricted areas and weapon limitations is driven by selfishness. People want a special place, or time, just for them and their like-minded congregation, where they can practice their particular brand of hunting without having to put up with the regular sinners. They like to dress it up as something noble and "traditional", but what they're really doing is making a grab for public land and game resources. I once had man from Kentucky, who identified himself as a "professional bowhunter", tell me that allowing rifle hunting during the rut was going to ruin deer hunting. What he really meant was that it was going to make him share the woods during the best time to take a big buck. There certainly are good, sound, reasons for special areas and seasons, but catering to purists ain't one of them.

This year, for reasons I've already explained, I've decided to use a modern muzzleloader that, while somewhat more convenient to use and easier to aim, is still a single-shot with limited range and power, and nowhere near, as someone suggested, just like using an '06. If that offends anyone's tender sensibilities or causes their control issues to raise their ugly heads, they'll just have to deal with it.

One thing that stands out to me is the difference of opinion based on where a person hunts. Eastern and Western deer hunting is very different in many aspects. Different regs, seasons, length of seasons, general or draw tags only, private or public property ...

Hey! No thinking allowed!

well then we been at it about the same length of time . Apparently at a different depth and complete different experience .
As to how it effects me , it doesn�t , as I hunt right in the general season right along side folks with everything from 30.06 to 300�s so I could care less .
So , what ever . Enjoy you scope .
But when the day comes , and mark my words , it will , will you chose your modern muzzleloader or you Rem.700 when the season allows either .

More time in the field ?

Actually, I'm starting out with my Sako .243. After that, it may be the Knight, one of my .357s, or my Greyhawk if I get the red dot mounted. Then maybe the .243 again, the .308, or the Knight again. The .270 stays home this year.

Our seasons run Rifle, ML, Antlerless, then another short antlerless after Christmas. A lot depends on how lucky I get early.

I don't do Remington. Not these days anyway.

Uh oh. I had another thought.

Something that's changed in the mindset of hunters, and goes straight to the subject, is straying away from the idea that hunting is meat gathering ... first and foremost.

My dad could care less about methods, gear, or big horns. It was all about bringing home the meat.

That mindset is becoming a thing of the past.

FWIW, my dad was born in 1903.

Your dad is 111 years old?

Perhaps in CO, but the mindset you refer to is alive and well here in the swamps.

I know a fellow out in Wyoming that hunts pronghorns with a flintlock. Not out of necessity, but because he can. He is actually very well known in the shooting community, runs several shooting businesses etc. He does it because he can. Having been extraordinarily close to pronghorns in the past I understand the mindset at play and see it as doable. YMMV

Without reiterating previous thoughts on the topic, I choose to still hunt and do so in very dense cover for both deer and hogs. It is not about the tools, it is the chase. I use arms appropriate to the situation which span multiple gauges, calibers from .17 to .45. Irons, scopes and apertures are on the table as a matter of choice, not necessity.

I do not use what is conventionally referred to as inline muzzle loaders. There are a myriad of reasons, but they are personal and I do not care what personal decisions others make.

That said, the original post essentially raised a question that I paraphrase thus: "I don't want to use x-y-z, why isn't something else available?" My flippant response was offered as an observation. Either it has not been "invented" or there is no market for it. Obviously, I am not sold on the idea so my opinion would relate more to the market side of the question. The reason I'm not sold on the idea is a perception of having no need. I can and do whack critters up close with small to large bore guns. I am also perfectly capable to doing it at long range as a matter of equipment and ability, both with modern guns and ancient relics that consume black powder.

Never in life have I burned the first kernel of BP substitutes and I never will. There is no need, in my opinion. YMMV.

To that original post I say, use what you want, and if it does not exist, invent it. Necessity is in a foot race with wants, either can be the mother of invention.

Horns are okay, as long as they're attached to meat!

This is going to be my third season on public land, and where I'm hunting, you'd better make the most of the opportunuties you get if you want venison. I have yet to see a buck during the deer season, although I do see them while hunting other stuff. When the orange hats hit the woods, they vanish, probably across the Shenandoah to private land. The bucks I've seen haven't been very big, so I'd just as soon shoot does anyway with the hope that the bucks will grow up some.

I never have and never will consider Colorado my home.

Pears sent.

??? ahhh ok , so then that seems to strike right along with what i was told about have gun X if you want to get a shot before all the other hunter around you ??
while you may not think that way . a vast majority do and when they fall for the advertizing hype .... welll anyway . hope you do well .


I would agree with Dan. Those ideals aren�t dead . Just lacking IMO for the vast majority .
doesn�t help much when it cheaper in a lot of cases just to buy a � beef .
Funny how times change . I swore after leaving the military that I would never own a modern military style rifle . I see no real need . But yesterday on a spur of the moment type thing while down pulling holiday stuff from our storage . I placed a 50.00 bid on the small storage unit next to ours that was up for auction .
Well I don�t know if no one else bid or what but im now the owner of 3 different ones some ammo and a trailer load of crap LOL

When I was a boy we only had deer or Elk season . No bucks only , or 3 point or better or fork horn only . When the season opened it was bucks or does , Cows or bulls . We normally took the first we saw . Horns did not and still dont mater .

Many years back , I went to strictly muzzle loading and set my center fires aside . This doesn�t mean I don�t have any . It just means that for the most part I don�t use them for hunting. I just don�t see the need .
Most years I fill my tags . Some years I don�t . when I don�t its normally not because I cant , just that I have chosen not to . Im just not much into the killing anymore . But I sure do the hunt like

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Davy traded off his caplock for a flinter either on his way to or after he got here in Texas.

General belief down here is that flinters far outnumbered caplocks at the Alamo, the hundreds of thousands of caps being shipped west by that time notwithstanding. Even Travis' SxS double shotgun is believed to have been a flinter tho bird hunters were among the first to take up the use of the caplock.

In the early 1840's ranging companies in Texas were being supplied with approximately equal proportions of both flints and caps.

Birdwatcher

What it means is if you see a deer, you'd better shoot it and not wait for another one. Of the three deer I've taken there in two years, two were taken at 25 yards or less with CFs, the third at about 75 with my Greyhawk. The type of firearm used wasn't a factor. Getting an accurate shot off in a matter of seconds in heavy cover was. They're usually only visible for a few seconds.

who , the deer or all the other orange caps you spoke of ?

Deer.

Orange hats generally move pretty slow and are Catch and Release only.