Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Why Use Large Bore For Deer?

I guess I will burn in hell. I shoot in lines. I have scopes on them. I load them with Blackhorn 209 powder. I put Dyna Bore Coat in the barrels so they don't foul so bad. I shoot plastic saboted bullets. The bullets are Barnes T-EZ, which are all copper AND have a plastic tip!

I do all that because it's better. I built my first couple of muzzle loaders back in the late '60s and early '70s. I used round balls, I used paper patched, I used conicals.

Now, I don't have to swab between shots. I don't have to limit myself to what a round ball can handle. I get better accuracy. I get better velocity with less. I get better range than even the conical bullets. I get better performance on the deer. It's all better. And, it's still a single shot muzzle loader.

I am currently shooting deer in a neighborhood that's overpopulated and very nearly impossible to control the population because the deer must be in just the right place, the hunter must be in just the right place and it all has to come together at the same time. Even a little screw up might make for Bambi running off and dieing in someone's front yard. People don't care as much if they hear an occasional shot that's not so loud and they don't have to see anything. While I am sure that many of then would rather not have shooting around them, I am also sure that they don't like their landscaping and gardens devoured.

I don't care about tradition. Given a choice, I'd opt for down loaded .223 ammo. I don't have that choce so I picked the best combination for killing very fast and clean. There's a lot to be said for efficiency.

So Miles, why do you use a large bore for deer?

Im not even going to dig into that other then to say thank you for the supporting comments concerning some folks opinions concerning modern muzzle loading.

Frankly ,, if you had all those issues with a traditional gun but don�t now with your modern gun ,,, well sir IMO you were doing things wrong or had a cheep piece of junk .

Burning in hell ?? that�s up to you .
But frankly I don�t see a single reason why you should even have a comment when it would appear that the very reasoning that some folks are so against mixing traditional and modern muzzle loading can be substantiated by your experience .
Im pretty sure that even most modern shooters would disagree with you . But ha 2 thumbs up .
Just be careful that you don�t end up shooting a girl on a horse or a young girl in an Amish wagon some 2 miles away .
Then trying to convince local law enforcements that your muzzle loading set up , isn�t capable

Precisely what I said... I picked the best option for killing fast and clean.

nothing wrong with that RWE

here is a CVA flintlock i did a new stock for earlier this year for a customer.

Aw Jesus! Where to begin? Anyone who thinks BP fouls less than or equal to Something like BH-209 is either ignorant of just plain stupid.

I would express the same sentiment for anyone who thinks a PRB or conical can match the performance of something like a Barnes T-EZ. It just isn't going to happen in this lifetime. You can certainly kill with PRBs and conicals, but they can't give you the advantages a truly modern ML bullet can. At the worst, the absolute worst, a Barnes that has slowed to below where it will expand will still make a comparable hole to a PRB or conical, and that's going to be well after the PRB or conical. While at short range a PRB or conical can provide comparable accuracy, the further out you go the less they compare. That's why we use long, high SD bullets, better performance at range. Round balls shed velocity very, very fast. They are affected by wind more than longer heavier bullets.

All I am interested in is killing deer with maximum efficiency using a muzzle loader. Did I want to I could certainly do what I am doing using PRBs and a flinter. Because there are other people's sensibilities to consider, I just choose more efficiency as insurance against offending those sensibilities even though it is perfectly legal.

Like I said, given a choice I'd use a .223 with downloaded ammo and just head shoot them so they drop in their tracks. This is not hunting. This is killing deer in an overpopulation situation where deer hunting is still legal, but very difficult to accomplish with safety.

Do I have to build one ... from scratch?

Couldn't I just use my computer to order it on online and have it delivered by a modern sophisticated efficient transportation delivery carrier which puts it on my doorstep in a few days?

Oh wait ...

That wouldn't be very "traditional".

Cap, just a guess on my part but looking at your work I'd say your entrance to Heaven is assured. Beautiful craftsmanship by any standard I'm familiar with. Kudos!

Fish...The Poobah's slot is already filled. Now go order your kit and chisel and files, get to work!

I don't know how to use chisels and files.

Could I take the parts to a machine shop and have them CNC it?



captchee,

Those are some very fine looking rifles.

NICE !

Plan B.

I'm an expert with a Dremel tool.

I got a Dremel and a big plastic case of accessories that I bought at Costco. I could Bubba a flinter together.

Miles, one of the great things about the U.S. is freedom of choice, and another is freedom of speech. Not covered under the Constitution or Bill of Rights are acts of valor, discretion or the right to embarrass one's self as a result of exercising any of the former.

Firstly, take a breath and relax. Jesus likely has no opinion on this topic. My inquiry about your use of a large bore was rhetorical humor, nothing more. As to the beliefs of others or your own, everyone has their own opinions which are adopted on the basis of experience. It doesn't mean yours or theirs are superior, only that the belief exists. I'm going to address some of your comments I quoted in an effort to illustrate that point. No offense is intended.

Who cares which fouls more, or less? I mean, really, who cares? Does it matter what others think when YOU make your choices? Well, maybe yes and maybe no. Perhaps your choices were shaped by the opinions of others, it's not my place to judge that. To call someone stupid because they disagree with your opinion is a bit strong...in my opinion.

I was shooting a Stevens 44 chambered in .25-20 SS awhile back, the load containing 19 grains of BP. Was the first time I'd shot the gun and frankly I was a little surprised by the lack of smoke. Other shooters were as well, and asked me if I was sure it was BP. Well, it was Swiss 1.5 FG, compressed .060" with a .030 card wad in Bertram brass, capped by a bullet from an Ideal 257283 mould, alloyed 30:1. I fired 10 shots at the 50 yard line for a group of about 2" and called it a day. I did not swab the bore between shots and it took a total of 3 patches to clean and oil the bore. 3...patches. Done. To be candid, I did reverse the patches and use both sides, including the third which was an oil patch.

I would not have any idea what it takes to clean BP subs, but have seen a number of barrels ruined by the belief that they don't cause corrosion like BP. BS. This includes 777, Pyrodex and one other though I cannot recall what is was. BH209 may be an exception as I've read that it uses conventional bore cleaners (petroleum) rather than water. Foul less or more? I wouldn't know and have no desire to find out, nor can I imagine what I'd gain from using such propellents. It is my choice. If it works for you, then great, but it is little more than your opinion based on your experience.

On point of comparison of ballistic gak, the Barnes web site lists something in the range of .19 and .22 for a couple of .50 cal versions of the T-EZ, but we don't know what you are using. So OK, you have some muzzle velocity advantage...big whoop. I dally around with a few of lead conical shooters (muzzle loaders) that are quite a bit better than that, so if we want to stretch the range, how far before your stumpy little BC challenged bullet gives way to superior aerodynamics? It only matters when the question arises as to whether or not one is inclined to take the shot, no? When the velocity gets low my bullets, being pure lead with a flat meplate will expand if that matters. If not, one of them is a true .50 caliber so that's the hole I get. It will be beyond 400 yards before there is any chance of having to rely on that. As far as accuracy, I'm willing to race anytime you choose. No class rules, string measure, range of your choice. That I'm willing to do that says something about my opinion of my rifles and what I know they are capable of doing.

Same day I was plinking with the Stevens I had occasion to unlimber a .45 cal flint lock built by a fellow named Turpin. It's about long enough to reach over into the next zip code and I have hunted with it a bit. Enjoy shooting it a lot as did a friend who was with me that has an assault rifle w/can mentality. He even giggled a few times. Over the course of 15 shots offhand I swabbed the bore once about midway thru. 3 targets were shot and the groups averaged 2" for 5 shots each and on my part they were in the bull. It took me 6 patches to clean and oil the barrel and wipe the lock, cock and caboodle.

Upon retrieving the last target there was a fellow setting up next to my table with 3 gas guns, a big smile and making jokes about having to clean the thing twice each time I shot it. I had to ask if he wanted to race, offhand at 50 yards and waved the target in his face. He declined. I suppose I could argue that in his hands he might have done better on deer with the flinter? Or not...he seemed happy with 5" groups from a bag rest. His choice, my choice, we are both happy and moving on. Neither of us is stupid or ignorant.

That said, it matters not what you choose to use or why. I would appreciate it if you did not call me ignorant or stupid nonetheless. Yeah, I know it was a general comment not directed at ME, but if the shoe fits I'll wear it most times.

Use what you need to use on your deer cull operation. I do the same here in the Sunshine State for our Department of Environmental Protection for hogs. They restrict me to rimfires. I use a Contender chambered for shorts. There have been no escapees to date. There has been approximately 100 fatalities. I am so restricted due to this being a rural area with moderate residential development and they don't want the neighborhood in a snit. I have asked for variance from that restriction for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with external or terminal ballistic performance.

Info is on the target, take it for what it's worth.



Same gun, 200 yards with 15-20 L-R wind. 2 on the right are sighters, no adjustment was made for the next three shots that I made.



It cleans easy.



Best Regards,

Brainpan Dan

Is it a big bore Dremel?

Use a Savage kit.

DD

I dunno.

I got 1/16" and 1/8" collets and real sharp accessories that chew up wood in a heartbeat.

I'm sure it would be way faster than using chisels and files.

Send me a nice tiger strip maple stock to practice on.

I think you're more disturbed than HE is...

True dat.

Dan,

Why are you replying to a post quoting someone else?

Touchy maybe?

You asked me why I prefer large bore and I answered you.

Are you trying to say that BH 209 fouls as bad as blackpowder? PRBs work as well as modern mono metals?

Well, on my screen I quoted you. In response I pretty much said all I have to say about BH209. You might put a little polish on your flippant when you find the time.

Good morning folks
First off , no where did I say your Buck horn fouled less then BP .
What I said was that if you had to do all the things you said you did back in the 60�s and 70�s , then you were doing it wrong or where shooting a cheep piece of SH#$.

I do a lot of target shooting for the most part off hand . Some 30lbs of black powder a year .
I don�t , nor do I know many , who swab their bores like that . Frankly im in the range of 25-30 shots , Depending on humidity , before I have to swab . Then when I do , it� because loading had started to get a little hard . Thats remedied by a wet patch , not a complete bore cleaning .

. Frankly with a quality bore and proper load ,unless your shooting for string or just wanting to , there should be no need to swab the bore like that .
If you fouling is so great that you cant load . Then you have issue with your bore ore you using some crap lube .
But then I have to wonder . Why is it that this would even be a concern . Surly if your set up is as effective and efficient as you say , you would only need to be shooting, what maybe 3 times in a day if your real lucky ????
I wonder how fast can you load and still be accurate . surly that would part of your efficiency numbers wouldn�t it .

As to clean up . I find clean up to be much along the lines of what Dan posted in that it only takes a 2-3 patches of Old thunder followed by a patch of Remmy oil . Frankly it takes no more time to clean the bore then it does the lock .
However if I shoot Pyro or T7 , which I do in my old paper cartridge shot guns ,its a PITA scrubbing the barrels out in the laundry room . If you don�t , both will also eat the [bleep] out of the barrels

As to the rest of you post .
Look . What your doing is trying to justify your opinion.
Your welcome to it .
That however doesn�t change the fact that dead is dead . No mater what type/ method a person chooses to use , if the result when used properly is a quick death , then that method was efficient .
Place the PRB properly , with a correct load and it will be just as efficient as your super bullet at the same range . I don�t care if the thing expands to the size of a basket ball. Blades spring from its ass ��. Followed by small nuclear explosion . All that means is that you can miss by a larger margin and still be efficient .

Now what may not be efficient is the person. But you cant buy or down load , then plug it into a chosen orifice and suddenly gain what it is that you lack . Does not work that way .
But then again maybe there is a super bullet that would allow a hit in the ass and still provide instantaneous death .
But if that�s the standard for effective , then why not just use a 2 or 4 bore ???.
For that matter mount a wall gun on your back deck . You want efficient that would be efficient

Now as to range and accuracy of the PRB .
Just how the hell far are you shooting ? 100 , 200 , 300 ?
Are you saying the PRB is not accurate enough for those ranges ?
You do realize that history would prove you wrong .
That same history tells us that that same PRB had the energy to kill horses at those distances yet somehow today it doesn�t .
I guess because someone set up a standard that says you need X to kill �efficiently �
So if some computer or mathematical program doesn�t say �YEEEEP� then it just cant be done .
But then the bumble bee cant fly . Can it .

At some of those target events I mentioned earlier . Well we shoot long distance off hand . No scope , open sights , PRB . While I have yet to get as good as the recorded standard for a rifleman during the revolutionary war , I have managed to become efficient enough that I can place a 54 cal ball , with certainty , in the chest of a Human silhouette 150 yards . In the silhouette, with around 60% certainty out to 250 yards . On my best day 5 on target at 325 yards .. Factually I have not been able to do that since. All of which , by the way are / were witnessed and I have the bling to prove it .. Now would I do that hunting ,, nope , see no reason in gods green earth to do so.

So what you really chose was , what was most effective and efficient for you right now . that�s all your saying . Nothing less and nothing more .
As to killing .
Sir , I don�t care about killing, just plain killing ,anymore then you say you care about traditions .. .
You might want a start though ,since those traditions maybe the only thing that keeps all of us hunting some day down the road .
Killing isn�t not even on my list of reasoning for hunting .
But is what your doing , really hunting or animal control . Would the two be considered the same and if so at what point would one differentiate .
While I can understand what your saying as to the why . It seems to me to be a contradiction .
Maybe im getting the wrong impression . All I know is that here , we place short range rules in rural areas so as to protect people while at the same time efficiently manage game .
Seems that in your zeal your proving the very thing that the vast majority of people are trying to disprove .

However I submit to you this .
God forbid but , 1 wrong step is all its going to take and you may just find yourself trying to convince folks that what your shooting is not capable of the very things your saying it is here .
Those neighbors who you say , your sure appreciate not having their gardens and flowers eaten . Well I think I can say with certainty that many will turn on you and claim just the opposite.
It happened with the girl that was shot off her horse and it happened with the Amish girl who was killed while driving down the road with her brother in a wagon .

So enjoy what you do . I have no problem with that . . Just don�t make some wild claims about efficiency , effectiveness , bla as that�s all subjective and based on your own experience.
Which in turn appears by your statement to have possibly been derived lack of earlier experience and no real interest in gaining that experience .
That sir is something I cant understand and frankly have no way , need or want to relate to as I just don�t see the benefit

you can learn fishhead . just find someone close who you can help you through .
this was Juans first attempt










A friend of mine has a place down along the snake river .
I was down at his place setting up a smoothbore for a customer when the owner of the land next to DJ�s came down . We had finished shooting for the day and was setting back under the trees having a cold one when the subject of conversation turned to stock wood .
DJ mentioned the figured walnut stock on Beaverman�s Isaac Haines rifle . That lead to the neighbor stating that he had an black walnut on his place that was at least 100 years old . It had died some 5-10 years back and was still standing down on the old homestead . Said I could have it if I wanted it other wise he was going to push it over and cut it up for fire wood in the next few weeks .
So we packed up and went to take a look .
We took a D9 and pushed it over . I cut it into 8ft lengths and we loaded them up on a car trailer with a front loader .
I then stated calling around and found a local fella with a mill who agree do to slab it out for me for 100.00 and the cost of any blades he might tear up .
I ended up with 22 planks ranging fro 8-24 inchs across , 4 to 6 inchs deep and 8 ft long .
What you see in the photo is about 8 ft of what i have . That stack actually covers 12 ft of that wall and another 12 ft along another wall .
wasn�t to long after that that I had a customer come in who was trying to make his own stock from an English walnut that his father had cut down some 30 years back and set the planks to dry . Problem was , he didn�t seal the ends so the planks split . He said that if I would cut him out a couple blanks for his Remington , he would give me what was left . Thus I have those two English walnut planks that are split , which you see in the photo . While split they still work for � stocks , butt and forearms or pistol stocks �. But for the most part they are split fairly bad . he also gave me an additional 5 planks that same size which are far more usable . however none of the english really has any figure to it .
of the black walnut , i have maybe 5 planks that have very nice figure .
every time i cut a stock out of it , its like christmas . you just never know whats hidding in there.

Juan finally decide on a base engraving pattern seen for the patch box .
way , way above his skill level . not to mention mine. But since he talked me into giving it a go , I guess ill give it a shot. don�t think im good enough yet to do the pattern justice . We will just have to see how it turns out on a practice plate first .

basicly it will be this with a leaf pattern on the final and front half of the lid and final . then a rope patern around the back of the lid .
as i said , i dont know . going to be a real challange for sure
dont know who the artist was who drew this but ,DAM!! they sure did a good job.
i guess im going to have to find out who the picture belongs to over the next coming months

[img]http://traditionalmuzzleloadingasso...image_id=5590&sk=t&sd=d&st=0[/img]

well we had a change to the patch box engraving .
now this is my first real attempt at Belino type engraving but i dont think it came out to bad .
started it 2 weeks ago and finished it tonight . not the best photo . we took it with his cell phone . ill have better photos hopfuly later in the week .

[img]http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=56&image_id=5599[/img]

ok guys . here its is . all finished up .
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