Bullets are too long for the common twists and the sabots would be too thick for high velocity loads. You would need to switch to a machined sabot made from something like nylon or maybe PVC. Those materials present a whole set of issues.
The closest working bullet i know of is the Precision Rifle 200gr 35cal in their 45x35 sabot or their duplex sabot. They work for some people.
The main reason for having a ML season is to somewhat limit the range at which game can be taken. Turning a ML into the equivalent of a centerfire defeats the purpose.
Quite a few 50cal and even 45cal ML loads are already the equivalent of a 45/70 single shot in FPE and or FPS. Mine happens to hit much harder if i choose.
Our minimum is a 40cal bore. It mentions nothing about the projectile other than sabots are allowed. A 40cal 200gr SST shot sabotless at 2700fps + is equal to or better than many CFs within typical hunting ranges.
You want a crazy range ML, look at Swinglocks 416. It will equal nearly any 416 CF on the market in FPS.
Here in Idaho the minimum for deer is 45. It however was not always that way . Small calibers are also becoming more and more popular. But those are also mostly being built in RB guns As I have mentioned many times before , the first muzzle loading rifle I built was a converted O3A3 . Thus a 30.06 2nd was a 30.30 I think fish head is probably very close as to the why . Rifling isn�t as big an issue as one would think . Nor is velocity . A lot of folks might just be surprised to see just how fast a small bore can crank out . It really isn�t that hard to hit the 2200-2500ftps range .
I actually ask our game commission much this same question some years ago . Ie: if a 30.30 win shooting a 170 gr bullet is legal for big game , then why not a muzzleloader , shooting the same grain bullet and producing the same or greater velocities? The answer was that they wanted larger , slower and more short range weapons so as to be able to use muzzle loading as a way to manage game in areas closer to populations . IMO , BS considering what they did next . but thats old water under the bridge . Biggest issue I found was bullet design . In order to get a center fire bullet to load in my O3A3 from the muzzle , it had to be sub bore and then loaded with a patch . At lower powder charges it was reasonably accurate . But I could never get velocities without destroying the patch and losing accuracy .
Alloys aloud for casting and bore size bullets which could be loaded from the muzzle . Lower charges again proved to be most accurate . Attempts to reach velocities only proved to lead up the barrel and destroy bullets
I think today , if someone really wanted to , they could produce a barrel with rifling as well as bullets proper for such a application of both smokless and BP . Myself I think the real hang up is the mindset of bigger is better . Most certainly its a lot easier to deal with in every aspect ranging from safety to end user .
Some of the smokeless muzzleloader guys have a die that takes .45 caliber bullets and swages rifling onto the bullet so that it can be loaded into the barrel by aligning the bullet's grooves with the barrels lands. This eliminates the need for sabots.
Two companies now make two adjustable sizing dies. One engraves rifling the other does not.
Sabotless is amazingly effect once you get the correct fit. Some bullets fit some barrels with no sizing required. Parker bullets often fit the McGowan barrels straight from the package.
The aforementioned Swing-Lock muzzleloader is available in 6.5mm & advertised as being able to launch a 120gr bullet at 3400fps. The .30 cal version does 3000fps with a 180gr.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
That is an expensive toy that would not be legal for our muzzleloading season. A friend of mine has a Swing Lock, but I have never shot it. He took it on an antelope hunt a couple of years ago and made a really long shot.
Swinglock can build nearly any caliber you could need. I think the 308 is relatively new. The 416 is just crazy though. 416 Weatherby performance+ in a ML....Wicked
That is an expensive toy that would not be legal for our muzzleloading season.
As well it should be, IMO. I'm sure others will disagree, but the special muzzleloading seasons were created to give hunters using limited range weapons an opportunity to hunt without competing with the hoards during the general firearms seasons. When most of these seasons were initiated, the minimum .45 caliber restrictions were to ensure hunters were using enough gun. Nowadays it restricts people from going afield with .264/.300/.416 magnum ballistics. Hardly in the spirit of the season. In general firearms season though, be my guest. Just my 2 cents, YMMV
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
Those NMLRA matches are really interesting and the Gibbs do win, against similar match legal rifles...Whitworths, Volunteers, Rigbys, Henrys, etc. It has little to do with how effective they are as hunting rifles. They're no better, or worse, than any "traditional" muzzleloader. The game is different though. Your "target" may show up at an undetermined range, probably not stay still for more than a few seconds at a time, and you don't get a couple sighter shots before firing for record. The ballistics of a 500gr bullet @ 1200fps in a rifle sighted for 100yds will hit almost 8 FEET low at 300. Compare that to any of the Swing Lock offerings or a smokeless .45 pushing a .40 200gr @ 2700fps, <20" drop @ 300, and the advantage is obvious. Throw on a scope with ballistic reticle and you give up nothing to any firearm in the woods during general rifle season. Don't get me wrong. I like them all (and own most) but there's gotta be a line drawn somewhere in regards to special seasons.
Again, my 2 cents and there's plenty who don't share it.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
The fact remains, a traditionalist has no problem with a 451 Gibbs taking deer at extreme range but has a fit over any inline during a ML season. Ive seen it time and time again. Show the guy a White sporting rifle and he drools over it. Put the same Douglas barrel in front of a 209 and its blasphemy.
Our season has basically no restrictions other than 40cal minimum. We do have cap and ball only draw hunts in prime conservation land. Conicals are allowed even though its refered to as cap and ball. No scopes and no 209 primers.
Give me a part of the archery season instead of after firearms season and i might be more sympathetic to traditional methods.
Ever shot a Gibbs or Tryon rifle Overkill ? Can you buy one from walmart ?
While they are very good target rifles , in the hands of an everyday shooter , trying to use them for a hunting gun , frankly they are no better then anything else . Those target matches , well for the most part your not talking about snap shooting or for that mater a hunters definition of taking careful aim Add into that , getting the accuracy that your insinuating , takes a lot of practice, knowledge matched with a heavy long range shooting discipline.
Then you have to also accept that the Gibbs is also a side lock ignition . Completely exposed to the weather and for the most part firing at low velocity a heavy grain bullet using open sights or depending on the shooter a peep . Add in a set of target sights , which create their own complications.
Even in the heyday of the Gibbs rifle when a few used it to hunt with , they were hunting for the most part un spooked animals in large concentrations. So basically they could set up on a hill and shoot most all day at the same group of animals. that�s not going to happen today While the Gibbs would be legal here in the .451 , for deer , if you dropped the bullet under .010 of bore , it would not . So lets see Exposed ignition vs. closed . #11 cap vs. 209 primer Creedmoor sights vs. variable scope Loading lose powder ,a conical , with a paper patch , using a false muzzle vs. loading pellets or smokeless powder a jacked bullet in a plastic sabot .
Now this one is tongue and cheek , LOL Years of dedicated shooting and l earning the long range muzzle loading discipline vs. a 12.99 ramby faykmain shooting book from the local Walbelas
Then actualy thinking about taking a shot at 400 yards + , in the wind , rain , snow Ya I can see you point , wow , same thing isn�t it . Cant see why anyone would think there was a difference . So very glad you brought it up , very worthy example
My MK85 is not a enclosed breach. It has an exposed breach and a peep sight. What makes it so different. Ive never shot a Gibbs but ive shot a White Sporting rifle enough times to know its just as effective as many inlines. Probably more accurate than most.
Lead seems to kill no matter how the ignition is laid out. The vast majority of deer around here are killed within ranges the ignition type or powder used make little difference.
No matter how you try to spin it, traditionalist are typically hypocrites while they run around in Under Armor, Thinsulate and carry a smartphone or GPS while hunting.
No matter how you try to spin it, traditionalist are typically hypocrites while they run around in Under Armor, Thinsulate and carry a smartphone or GPS while hunting.
Claiming to be a traditionalist doesn't make you one. Perhaps the true traditionalist doesn't do anything on your list.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
The funny part is, i hunt and tag out usually before our muzzleloader season and i never complain about the CF guys advantage. I have no problem with the guys that can use CF pistols during the muzzleloader season.
When they offer a season for MLs before firearms season, i would have no problem if it prohibited 209 primers, sabots and a enclosed breach.
Anything to knock the bow hunters lengthy seasons down a notch would be a good laugh.
Yep, it started a few years ago. You can even use a T/C Encore in 7mm-08 during our "muzzleloader" season.
You can not use a CF pistol though during the conservation area management ML hunts. Those are ML only and traditional ML only. Depends on the area you apply to hunt.
While the 85 my not be , many others are just as I said . Would you like to add other designs to you list or would you be willing to restrict to that comparison and never talk about it again ? In that lays Imo the real issue . As long as we hold to rules that restrict to an even comparison , where is the problem . But it doesn�t stay that way as within a year or two of making a compromise, the boundaries are pushed . Which then again causes a separation with the modern shooters wanting more and the traditional folks wanting to restrict or hold the line . that�s just the way of it . Does it really make a difference as to what you wear ? Is there a state somewhere which requires primitive cloths ? So why the crying about it ?
The real issue Overkill is that the some folks want to be accepted to the point the demand and force that acceptance . Laws can change all they want but that doesn�t mean your accepted
I seriously doubt that�s ever going to happen between traditional folks and the modern type shooter even if every law in the land ends up allowing every bell an whistle of the modern movement. Now folks can say that�s not the case . But frankly I don�t see the issue you rise as being any different then someone with a 2006 4 cylinder rice burner , crying because they are not aloud to be part of a muscle car show or group . Its not hard to relate the same issue just about everywhere one looks today . Our whole country is divided on just about every subject Its just not going to change as there is to big a difference in reasoning between the two groups
So im sorry if you feel bent because you feel folks accept a rifle like a gibbs but wont accept a 85. I wonder , have you ever thought that maybe the reason those folks accept one but not the other maybe very close to the reason why others would chose the 85 over the gibbs ?
Myself a I personally don�t care one way or the other . For us here , the time has passed . IMO it wont be long IMO before there is no dedicated muzzle loading season at all . The things will start all over again .
So im not going to get dragged into a modern vs. traditional argument with you because it will only end someone saying; we all should support every type of shooting we can or lose them all . Yep agreed . Problem is that support is normally defined only in one direction
But back to the original question . I own an Stutzer that shoots a 10mm conical . It was very capable in its day . Still should be . But even though it meets all the regulations, its to small of a caliber to use for big game hunting here is it accurate at long range ,,, yep but so is my flintlock shooting a RB . But what I can do with that rifle at targets is a completely different thing then what I can do or would attempt to do while hunting . But again , the smaller cal rifles are out there and can be remade in eather traditional or Modern , if a person has a want . but i would make sure your rules allow for them if you intend to use them for big game . which again IMO they are capable of taking
Well, this has certainly been a charming discussion. Never ceases to amaze what a tremendous speed bump arrogance can be.
After reading all this I'm wondering if I should just go slit my wrists. After all, isn't a muzzle loading cartridge rifle sort of an inline. I guess, I dunno, maybe? I admit to owning a round ball flint lock as well. Jesus, I'm so phuocin' confused about my self image...
If someone isn't manufacturing a product to suit one's needs, I'd guess there isn't a market for it, or it hasn't been invented. That either makes one a moron or a genius, not sure which. Maybe time will tell.
Maybe my muzzle loader can beat up your muzzle loader? Who knows?
Who cares?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
nope load development off the rest in the pic of course. But I did do it from 100 yards with an open sight muzzy shooting patched round ball. Almost gives my scoped inline a run for the money!
But when I hunt with a muzzle loader, I don't want to compete with people shooting 300 yards with their in-line non black powder sabotted garbage.
Why would a person want to have a muzlle loader that shot like a center fire other than to have an unfair advantage.
I don't want to shoot my center fire in archery season and I don't want to use a cross bow in archery season.
These statements are kinda contradictory. Crossbows will NOT take animals as far away compund bows. The faster, but lighter bolts shed energy faster.
I am assuming you do use a compound bow though, and not a recurve?
Either way, it doesn't matter. I have never looked at what I hunt with as an advantage or disadvantage in regard to what others use. I don't feel I "compete" with other hunters. I use what I feel like using. That's it. MLs, handguns, crossbows, bows, and CF rifles all get used. I couldn't care less about what someone else chooses, provided they are proficient....JMO
nope load development off the rest in the pic of course. But I did do it from 100 yards with an open sight muzzy shooting patched round ball. Almost gives my scoped inline a run for the money!
Well, I'm just not that good I reckon. I did do this awhile back with the flinter, offhand on my hind legs at 50 yards. Is it legal to shoot a flinter off a bag rest?
Upper splash, left target....I forgot how light the set is on the first shot. My bad...
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
I shot this one with my flinter at 40 yards with a single shot to the head. That cold late evening will always stay in my mind! My first year with a flinter.
nope load development off the rest in the pic of course. But I did do it from 100 yards with an open sight muzzy shooting patched round ball. Almost gives my scoped inline a run for the money!
Well, I'm just not that good I reckon. I did do this awhile back with the flinter, offhand on my hind legs at 50 yards. Is it legal to shoot a flinter off a bag rest?
Upper splash, left target....I forgot how light the set is on the first shot. My bad...
Beyond the common usage of the word sabot today, and what the term originally meant, what is a sabot other than a material which isolates the bullet/projectile from the bore and allows the use of sub caliber projectiles? Ergo, Daniel Boone and Mr. Crockett were using sabots of a sort back in their day. Today I guess inline sabot sluts sneer when they say "patched round ball"? And what about us weirdos that paper patch, both as wrapped and cross stripped? Some even use a Chase patch. Oh, the horrors!
Are gunners in the Abrams tank gay for using a sabot on their DU darts?
Is a condom also a sabot?
Weighty questions....but in response to your own:
It will shoot about 800 yards. It never misses planet Earth. I can load my balls frontward, backward or sideways. I don't use 209 primers to shoot muzzle loaders. I don't use smokeless powder in muzzle loaders, nor do I use copper jacketed bullets with plastic tips or hollow points. New chitt makes me nervous.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
And lets see , since Christy made carriages in the 1800 that were drawn by horse and they made carriages for that set on steel frames with a combustion engine in the front instead of a horse . They there for made automobiles since the mid 1800�s?
If you had ask old Davy or Crockett if they shot sabots they would probably looked at you like you were an idiot for trying to load a shoe . Which by the way is what Sabot originally meant and later became the base for the word saboteur. So they may very well also have said ; yes we shoot saboteur�s every time we see one . What we call sabots today , would have been called canisters and used prominently in larger artillery . You don�t really see the word �Sabot� used in the context we use it , tell the 20th century . Even though we may define items of the past to be what we call �Sabots�
Speaking of that , funny you should bring up the M1 Sabo round / sabot round . Do you know what the purpose of that round is and why it was invented ? Might want to look that up because frankly it supports the reasoning of the person your trying to belittle .
So could a patch , be it paper or cloth be considered a sabot . Well ya you could look at it that way as the patch acts as a gas seal . But does it act as a centering device ???? I guess it could but its really more of a gas check . Does it allow for sub caliber rounds to be loaded . Well yes it would since your talking in the range of .010 . But since 90% of the shooters out there have no idea of what their true bore is , then that number could be greater Could one load a thick enough patch so as to be effective when trying to shoot sat a .400 projectile from a .500 bore . Probably not unless you were using it at close range .
so basicly its one of those things where
; since the powder is black , it therefore must be black power .
I have little doubt that if Davy had sabots available to him. He would have used them. He had no interest is using a technology that was 200 years old like is done today.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Actually , good old Davy had access to technologies greater then what he used . He chose what he chose for his own reasoning . It would appear though that he did not make more of it then it was. As i recall from my readings , he did use a flintlock . and when he was killed , he still shot a flintlock . so lets see , what would have taken its place ????? mmm maybe the cap lock . he also still shot a long rifle , yet 1/2 stock plains rifles ruled the day and the Hawkens bros were right in the middle of it making a small handful of rifles a year The western fur trade was almost over and in just 4 more years we would see the end of the Rendezvous� west of the rocky mountains . Hall had also been producing his inline , breech loading flintlock rifle for some 17 years , with roughly around 12-15 thousand being sold . Not to mention was on the verge of producing the rifle in percussion. That ended up not happening tell 1842 when military orders boosted sales and HF began the production which ran well through the US Civil war . He also had a handful of cartridge guns that were coming on the seen. Actually that choice had been around for a very long time . But apparently he chose not to use them . So you see factually , if we want to say , ;If he would have had it he would have used it . Well that may not be completely true because in the end , he die in 1836 with an out dates flintlock , long rifle in his position . Not a cap gun , not an inline , not a breech loader and not a cartridge gun But ha,,, LMAO thats all Tung and cheek . But you might want to look it up just to make sure
Tongue and cheek or not the compression is rather a stretch . Stretch it to far and like the condom it will break . As to that I would say that a condom would be a sabot . a) it holds back pressure . b) depending on the type , it could be self centering c)ahhh ??? Lets see what could C) be ,,, oh how about allows for shooting a smaller projectile in a larger bore ,,, LOL
My understanding is that the flintlock came into being in the very early days of the 17th century and was well established in the hands of techno-geeks by 1630. Yes/No?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
I would have to look it up , but yes early 1600�s for the flintlock . However by the time of Crockets death the trade lists show thousands of caps being sent to the fur trade rendezvous . Also by the lat 1820�s to early 30�s cap locks were becoming very prevalent in the populated areas of the east . Crockett was also a congressman . While he had lost the previous election , he still had spent some time in the capital . He was no stranger to the new technologies coming about .
Most certainly I would also bet that if he had access to a M60 and a few thousand rounds , he probably would have wished for it in the end .
But it still doesn�t change the fact that he chose to use his flintlock vs. all the other weapons of new technologies. Why ?? Who can say I have also heard it said that Travis wrote that men were showing up many times with no weapon . Others showing up with snaphence and dog locks
As to if crocket was a Luddite. Not sure one could say that with any real certainty . Did he oppose modern technology or as the left would say progress .
I do however think he was pretty clear in his political beliefs concerning the direction the country was going .
As was said though , he was born with a flintlock in his hand . So that was what he new. But it still doesn�t change the fact that he did have many choices as to weapons which some would consider superior . But apparently he must have been one to not believe in that superiority
As to what he would have bought ??? I want to sy I read somewhere and it may have been Boone , not Crockett , but as I recall it was said that his first rifle was a hand me down and near worn out . It may have even been a smoothbore . That as soon as he had a paying job , he had a local smith build him a proper rifle at a cost of 2 months pay . Now if that was the same rifle he carried at the Alamo , that I don�t know Could he have bought something cheaper ohm ya A trade gun be it smooth or rifled would have been a whole lot cheaper
But again concerning the ; if he would have had it he would have used it . At least in the case of Boone and Crockett that doesn�t seem to be the case . Now for some of the other noted mountain men of the time , that wasn�t the case some grabbed on rather quick . One very notable person was Jeremiah Johnson . While some would have you belive he was noted for his hawkens rifle . As of yet there is nothing to support that he owned one . But what he did own and what he was know for was revolvers and lever action repeaters
If at the time of these famous mountain men and frontier legends they had a "primitive weapons" season for folks that preferred spears, somebody woulda showed up with an atlatl and pissed the traditional spear chuckers off.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
Well that would be speculation as it didn�t happen and there was no seasons , no weapon or caliber laws �.. But eventually those laws and regulations had to happen so as to insure there would be something left for others . I wonder why that would be when the land had been able to sustain a population much larger then the population that began effecting that change . don�t get me wrong im not saying technology is bad . It however can get out of hand and destroy what it was designed to help .
However , back to your statement , Ironically if you reverse your statement , would you not end up with what actually did happen . IE folks showed up with modern weapons and one way or another effected those who you call spear chucker�s . Yep it pissed many of them off . Some during that time grasp the technology as a way to resist . Yet others chose to throw the technology aside and did not conform until they were forced to . Same goes for today . LMAO ,I would bet there are some modern technologies that piss some of the folks here off .
But lets address the spear chucker thing . Until you start adding modern jacketed bullets , scopes , modern powders , smokeless��. You very well may have chosen to use technology that as old as the flintlock . That Knight 85 and a lot of the muzzleloaders made by Doc White form their in line ignition base from designs and working guns from the 17th century and later was converted to percussion just as most everything else was to include the cartridge . Thus the cartridge eventually ended up antiquating the muzzle loading designs . The inline ignition , cartridge , breech loaders , revolvers ���.all existed much earlier then most folks think . They however for the most part not accepted . It was that one technological advancement called the percussion cap , that eventually changed it all
As I note to the original question though . If you read the Lewis and Clark Journals. You will find that Clack used his small rifle to take even elk . Though frankly he did set aside , not because it would not do the job but because the small ball did not leave a good enough blood trail to easily track the animal .
Past all that . The only point im trying to make is that we should not jump to making statements or comparisons that simply by looking at the time in history would appear to be untrue . Because what you end up with when you say , ; IF they had it they would have used it . is something like ; If Custer had a machine gun he would have used it . Well he did have them , chose not to take them
I'm one of those who feel that muzzle loader season should be kept traditional.
I apply for all kinds of center fire licenses and I hunt with center fire calibers.
But when I hunt with a muzzle loader, I don't want to compete with people shooting 300 yards with their in-line non black powder sabotted garbage.
Why would a person want to have a muzlle loader that shot like a center fire other than to have an unfair advantage.
I don't want to shoot my center fire in archery season and I don't want to use a cross bow in archery season.
I don't understand your reasoning. You hunt with centerfires, yet believe inlines give an unfair advantage. Over who? Who are you competing against? Why do you think other people should be bound by your opinions and prejudices? How is your experience lessened by what other people choose to hunt with?
Hunting regulations are designed to provide maximum recreational opportunities while preserving the resource, not to satisfy the selfish notions of a few cranks.
I guess my point being that if there's an activity where there are rules or limitations set, there's going to be a group that's content to stay well within the rules and a group that pushes the limits to gain the greatest advantage. It gets divisive when the "pushers" get the rules changed to match their desires to the point where the reason for the rules and limitations are lost. Personally I don't see the point of "special" seasons.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
I could go along with that, but am willing to give archers ( of all persuasions ) some time alone in the woods due to the limitations of their equipment. In the 70s, I carried a TC Hawken during the shotgun season in southern Maryland and never felt I was at a disadvantage. Actually, it was more accurate than the majority of shotguns folks were carrying then.
I've long thought that the seasons for various types of weapons should be rotated occasionally to even out opportunities a bit. In neighboring Virginia, the ML season is just before the regular firearms season, which essentially makes it the real "gun" season. Another option would be to give the stick and string folks a month or two and then just have "Deer Season", controlling the take by a combination of tag sales and keeping tabs on the total kill.
I don't understand your reasoning. You hunt with centerfires, yet believe inlines give an unfair advantage.
My question would be . if it doesn�t give you an advantage , why chose it ?
See at least for me , its not about why the design came about . So why did Knight chose to build the 85. Did he know about the earlier , historic designs . Personally I don�t believe I could be convinced that he did .. No sir . If you read the base for his coming up with the 85 it was supposedly that he and some friends had been hunting with side lock guns and were having issues with consistency and poor ignition in the cold wet weather . Also that he chose the design of the stock as something that today�s hunter was more familiar with and better suited to mount optics on . The full story once was on Knights web site. So in a nut shell what he produced was a design he felt gave advantages over the traditional guns that were available on the market .
Now myself , I call BS as IMO most of the problems he told about , despite what other say ,were IMO from lack of knowledge. There simply could be no other explanation. As other entered the market , they all toughed the advantages of their models .With each being better then the next . Are the Better. Well frankly not if you look at the very basic function . However if your looking for anything else , then you would be talking advantages.
As for myself . As I said before . If the modern shooter is restricted from using anything other then soft lead . Bore size or slightly sub bore size projectiles , no sabots , lose powder of eater Black or a synthetic alternative , none magnifying sights , exposed ignition . Then there would be little benefit/ advantage . Frankly , speaking again for myself . I have never seen the modern inline as a better when compared to traditional designs . Having advantages does not make it better .
But when you add in all the bells and whistles that are offered today , it IMO becomes no different then if a person were to take a 30.06 , load a empty but primed shell . Dump 60 grains of lose powder down the bore and follow it up with soft copper jacketed bullet . In the end though , the bullet its self doesn�t care what propels it . It will react the same for a given velocity . IE if BP propels it to 2200 fps , it will do the same as if a smokeless charge propelled it to that velocity . So really the only real change you would have made would be to have slowed down you ability to load.
As to special seasons . There are reasons for those seasons . Sometimes it�s a mater of location. Other times it�s a mater of environment and sustainability . still other times , as is often written by some , Just more time in the woods . Other times its about safety . IE concerning Archery. Frankly as a former and long time bow hunter �yes Compound� . the only reason I now support a separate season is for safety of the hunter . Range has 0 to do with it .
15 even 10 years ago I supported and frankly still do in some circumstances , a separation between modern and traditional muzzle loading . IE let the modern folks have all the fun toys they want to use . While at the same time allowing the more traditional folks to have a time and or areas where they can hunt without competing with laser guided , expanding projectiles being guided on target by a FO drone . In turn IMO both camps should then support each other . IE I support you and your rules for what you want and in turn you support me and mine But sadly , that did not work here . Grass is greener on the other side of the fence thing .
Lucky with today hunter being what it is . I don�t have to even worry as its not all that hard to get away from at least the majority of people even during the general center fire season . Frankly I don�t think it would be to far fetched to say that in another million years the human race will probably have evolved so as to have an ATV growing from their Ass Tongue and cheek of course
Laffin' here, anything is possible with genetic modification.
Yep , agreed . Who is to say what will come . All we can do is look back , see how different things were for us in our lifetimes .Then speculate how much different they will be in the future if we maintain the same level of speed for technological advancement . Sure does leave a lot of questions with very little answers.
That however is nothing new and is probably much the same question that generations upon generations before us ask .
If nothing else. They could have kept muzzleloader seasons to open sights. That would take away a lot of the advantage of inlines. They would still have some advantages, but at least their range would be limited some what.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
I was talking about an advantage over other hunters. Some apparently feel that hunting is some kind of competition and worry about the other guy getting one up on them. I've never felt that way and don't understand where it comes from. I sometimes use a weapon with a limited range to challenge myself, but don't care what anyone else is using. I do have a problem with people that want to force their preferences on others, largely because from what I've seen in the past, what they really want to do is reduce the number of hunters in the woods so they can have more elbow room. Someone that hunts with modern centerfire rifles can't logically object to the use of optical sights or inline rifles as unsporting or unfair to the game. No one is forceing anyone to use a modern muzzleloader, so the only reason for an objection to their use is either a lack of confidence in themselves or a desire to dictate how other people behave.
After years of using sidelock rifles, this year I purchased a scoped inline. My eyesight no longer allows me to use iron sights effectively and in fairness to the game, I decided to go with optics. My new rifle can use any propellant and any ignition type. Having never used them before, I decided to try sabotted bullets over BH209. I also purchased a full-caliber conical mold. I also have a good supply of Hornady FPB 350gr. bullets. I don't know at this time what my chosen load ultimately will be, but after a couple of range sessions, it's clear that the inline is no more reliable or quicker to load than my sidelocks or even the flinter I used to have. It may shoot a little flatter, but where I hunt, that's not a factor. The scope does allow me to place my shots accurately again, but for practical purposes, my effective range is little if any more than it was with irons when my eyes were better. The new propellants allow more shots between cleanings than BP, but when is that a factor in the deer woods? Let's be honest; the major handicap common to all muzzleloaders, is the rate of fire.
So what remains is the fact that some people just don't like the modern guns. Well then, don't use them. I'm not about to give up a significant part of my deer season just because some purists object to what I'm shooting.
I can accept what you say Pappy . However lets go down the list starting with hunting being a game of one upping . I been at this a very , very long time at just about every level one can think . From retail sails , to manufacturing to , the submitting of laws . So to say im not knew to this would be an understatement.
So let me ask you this . Take some time and read topics you can on big game hunting . Not just modern muzzle loading but hunting in general . don�t just read what interests you , but actually read any and every topic you can . What I have concluded is that none of us have the same opinions even though we may have things in common . Hunting has truly became a sport for most and not a necessity . Sadly its became a game of one upping . IE biggest buck , Giant elk , longest kill shot . Endless products from sents to camouflage, Anything to give that edge over the game we hunt and the fools who chose not to use the company X product . I was told one time ?? I don�t remember if it was here or on another board . But I was told that I did not understand how people had to hunt in the east . That they were confined to small plots of private land or face a mass of hunters on what little public land there was . This same person then went on to inform me that they had to have a gun capable of greater performance and accuracy at longer ranges . For if they did not , then one of the other 5-10 hunters setting in the same location would get the shot .
In the off season its about minute of accuracy and posting targets .most of the long term folks here know me . I have posted target and photos achieved from my flintlock. Most will also tell you that I like to give people sh#$ for shooting off a bench vs. off hand . is that still not one upping , ya it is .
Less folks in the woods : I beg to differ sir . Here it was actually a traditional muzzle loading group which petitioned the State game commission in 1989 to open hunts for general muzzle loading . I was part of that group and can tell you the reason we petitioned, was because we did not have the numbers of folks purchasing muzzle loading stamps to justify more opportunity .
This resulted in a number of areas defined along more traditional lines and areas defined more liberally. That worked with little problem tell the late 1997 . Around that time peoples started requesting more and more allowances in the general hunts as well as acceptance into the more traditional areas . I guess they though the hunting was better ?? I don�t know .. But there was such a up roar that the commission in 2008 closed down the general season and went to more restricted hunts . They then Went to public comment , which favored keeping the general season closed . if not for the governor we would not have a general muzzle loading season today . The commission however countered saying that keeping the season would demand less opportunity
In 2008 it all came to a head Toby Bridges filed his lawsuit over scopes and the states laws restricting modern technologies in the muzzle loading season . I was asigned to submit information to the state commission supporting their reasoning . Let me tell you sir , that wasn�t hard to do . The internet is full of people touting how effective and progressive their guns are . a lot of times even the manufacture own advertising provided what was being ask for . When all was said and done the gentleman standing to my left said the same thing you are concerning the effectiveness of the modern design . My reply to that was ; Who sir is then wrong , is it the manufactures and their advertising, is it these gun owners or the comments made and documented in the papers you hold in your hand ?.
the result , you have what we have now . No traditional designated areas . The modern rifles are aloud but we also have heavy restrictions . Toby"s scope issue.......??? well we dont allow magnification scopes in the general muzzleloading hunts .
The numbers of hunters participating continues to fall . hell I don�t even hunt in the muzzle loading hunts frankly but for a couple of times , I have never hunted in them . The real opportunity is in the general any weapons season right along with the center fire folks when near the whole state is open and you can use what ever you want with no restrictions . to include smokeless muzzleloaders amd 70X20000 scopes or a sling shot if you want ..
Funny part about it . as the numbers drop , there are less and less folks in the woods . As tag sales drop season get closed . Which means the #1 comment I hear from modern folks �More time in the woods � Well ?????not sure just how that works .
Ill close this real quick about scopes . Let me say that every center fire rifle I own , has a scope on it . Im not that old , in my late 40 , pushing 50 . I have worn glasses all my life and in the last 2 years or so I have noticed my eyesight getting alot worse . . I however am of the opinion that this just means �MY� effective range is closer . If my eyesight gets so bad that I need a 4 X32 scope just to be able to see a kill zone the size of a basket ball at 50 yards , then most likely ill also have far greater things to worry about then if I killed a deer or elk that year . Now that being said . I, did , do and will support the handicap designation which does allow folks with Doctor verified medical conditions to get exceptions to the laws .
So to close this very long essay � I cant spell for crap anyway � let me say this. Its comes down to ,support me and ill support you situation between hunters . Which means over all we support everyone. If we don�t , as hunters numbers drop , and those special seasons close . Eventually you end up with a single season . Its length based on numbers. As those numbers drop , those special seasons will come back . But the majority of us wont be able to afford them Or established policies where you have to gain points or put into a lottery in order to be able to go out and hunt big game
I hope I don�t see it in my life time . But I can see it coming as our state moves more towards managing for trophy game ..
So while I can accept some of what you say and respect your opinion, my experience differs . I have grown tied of arguing this point as it does little good . So im content to set out in the shop , hunched over a plank of wood , cussing myself for taking to many orders again this year LOL vs spending endless ours standing in front of a game commission volentering my time So be safe sir
Captchee, my friend, I've been at this since the early '60s, and I doubt that there are many here who are more widely read on the subject than I am.
You clearly put a lot of of time and thought into your post, but nothing you wrote explains how what someone else uses to hunt with affects your hunting experience. The preoccupation with gadgetry and B&C scores and such is largely a result of marketing hype on TV and in magazines (most shows and articles are just ads disguised as content). I find that stuff kind of annoying and a sometimes just plain silly, but I don't let it impact what I do. If some goober wants to go through the woods dressed as tree and leaving a vapor trail of doe pee, that's between him, Jesus, and the State Game Commission. It's not my place to criticize him or correct his thinking; time and life will probably take care of that. As long as a person stays within the law and doesn't place others safety at risk, it's none of my business and I certainly won't let it impact my enjoyment. I'm not in competition with anyone.
I stand by my belief that a lot of the fuss over special seasons, restricted areas and weapon limitations is driven by selfishness. People want a special place, or time, just for them and their like-minded congregation, where they can practice their particular brand of hunting without having to put up with the regular sinners. They like to dress it up as something noble and "traditional", but what they're really doing is making a grab for public land and game resources. I once had man from Kentucky, who identified himself as a "professional bowhunter", tell me that allowing rifle hunting during the rut was going to ruin deer hunting. What he really meant was that it was going to make him share the woods during the best time to take a big buck. There certainly are good, sound, reasons for special areas and seasons, but catering to purists ain't one of them.
This year, for reasons I've already explained, I've decided to use a modern muzzleloader that, while somewhat more convenient to use and easier to aim, is still a single-shot with limited range and power, and nowhere near, as someone suggested, just like using an '06. If that offends anyone's tender sensibilities or causes their control issues to raise their ugly heads, they'll just have to deal with it.
One thing that stands out to me is the difference of opinion based on where a person hunts. Eastern and Western deer hunting is very different in many aspects. Different regs, seasons, length of seasons, general or draw tags only, private or public property ...
well then we been at it about the same length of time . Apparently at a different depth and complete different experience . As to how it effects me , it doesn�t , as I hunt right in the general season right along side folks with everything from 30.06 to 300�s so I could care less . So , what ever . Enjoy you scope . But when the day comes , and mark my words , it will , will you chose your modern muzzleloader or you Rem.700 when the season allows either .
Actually, I'm starting out with my Sako .243. After that, it may be the Knight, one of my .357s, or my Greyhawk if I get the red dot mounted. Then maybe the .243 again, the .308, or the Knight again. The .270 stays home this year.
Our seasons run Rifle, ML, Antlerless, then another short antlerless after Christmas. A lot depends on how lucky I get early.
Something that's changed in the mindset of hunters, and goes straight to the subject, is straying away from the idea that hunting is meat gathering ... first and foremost.
My dad could care less about methods, gear, or big horns. It was all about bringing home the meat.
Perhaps in CO, but the mindset you refer to is alive and well here in the swamps.
I know a fellow out in Wyoming that hunts pronghorns with a flintlock. Not out of necessity, but because he can. He is actually very well known in the shooting community, runs several shooting businesses etc. He does it because he can. Having been extraordinarily close to pronghorns in the past I understand the mindset at play and see it as doable. YMMV
Without reiterating previous thoughts on the topic, I choose to still hunt and do so in very dense cover for both deer and hogs. It is not about the tools, it is the chase. I use arms appropriate to the situation which span multiple gauges, calibers from .17 to .45. Irons, scopes and apertures are on the table as a matter of choice, not necessity.
I do not use what is conventionally referred to as inline muzzle loaders. There are a myriad of reasons, but they are personal and I do not care what personal decisions others make.
That said, the original post essentially raised a question that I paraphrase thus: "I don't want to use x-y-z, why isn't something else available?" My flippant response was offered as an observation. Either it has not been "invented" or there is no market for it. Obviously, I am not sold on the idea so my opinion would relate more to the market side of the question. The reason I'm not sold on the idea is a perception of having no need. I can and do whack critters up close with small to large bore guns. I am also perfectly capable to doing it at long range as a matter of equipment and ability, both with modern guns and ancient relics that consume black powder.
Never in life have I burned the first kernel of BP substitutes and I never will. There is no need, in my opinion. YMMV.
To that original post I say, use what you want, and if it does not exist, invent it. Necessity is in a foot race with wants, either can be the mother of invention.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Horns are okay, as long as they're attached to meat!
This is going to be my third season on public land, and where I'm hunting, you'd better make the most of the opportunuties you get if you want venison. I have yet to see a buck during the deer season, although I do see them while hunting other stuff. When the orange hats hit the woods, they vanish, probably across the Shenandoah to private land. The bucks I've seen haven't been very big, so I'd just as soon shoot does anyway with the hope that the bucks will grow up some.
Horns are okay, as long as they're attached to meat!
This is going to be my third season on public land, and where I'm hunting, you'd better make the most of the opportunuties you get if you want venison. I have yet to see a buck during the deer season, although I do see them while hunting other stuff. When the orange hats hit the woods, they vanish, probably across the Shenandoah to private land. The bucks I've seen haven't been very big, so I'd just as soon shoot does anyway with the hope that the bucks will grow up some.
??? ahhh ok , so then that seems to strike right along with what i was told about have gun X if you want to get a shot before all the other hunter around you ?? while you may not think that way . a vast majority do and when they fall for the advertizing hype .... welll anyway . hope you do well .
I would agree with Dan. Those ideals aren�t dead . Just lacking IMO for the vast majority . doesn�t help much when it cheaper in a lot of cases just to buy a � beef . Funny how times change . I swore after leaving the military that I would never own a modern military style rifle . I see no real need . But yesterday on a spur of the moment type thing while down pulling holiday stuff from our storage . I placed a 50.00 bid on the small storage unit next to ours that was up for auction . Well I don�t know if no one else bid or what but im now the owner of 3 different ones some ammo and a trailer load of crap LOL
When I was a boy we only had deer or Elk season . No bucks only , or 3 point or better or fork horn only . When the season opened it was bucks or does , Cows or bulls . We normally took the first we saw . Horns did not and still dont mater .
Many years back , I went to strictly muzzle loading and set my center fires aside . This doesn�t mean I don�t have any . It just means that for the most part I don�t use them for hunting. I just don�t see the need . Most years I fill my tags . Some years I don�t . when I don�t its normally not because I cant , just that I have chosen not to . Im just not much into the killing anymore . But I sure do the hunt like
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Davy traded off his caplock for a flinter either on his way to or after he got here in Texas.
General belief down here is that flinters far outnumbered caplocks at the Alamo, the hundreds of thousands of caps being shipped west by that time notwithstanding. Even Travis' SxS double shotgun is believed to have been a flinter tho bird hunters were among the first to take up the use of the caplock.
In the early 1840's ranging companies in Texas were being supplied with approximately equal proportions of both flints and caps.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
What it means is if you see a deer, you'd better shoot it and not wait for another one. Of the three deer I've taken there in two years, two were taken at 25 yards or less with CFs, the third at about 75 with my Greyhawk. The type of firearm used wasn't a factor. Getting an accurate shot off in a matter of seconds in heavy cover was. They're usually only visible for a few seconds.
No matter how you try to spin it, traditionalist are typically hypocrites while they run around in Under Armor, Thinsulate and carry a smartphone or GPS while hunting.
As i said ive seen it far too often.
If that's true, you are hanging with the wrong crowd.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke 1795
"Give me liberty or give me death" Patrick Henry 1775
No matter how you try to spin it, traditionalist are typically hypocrites while they run around in Under Armor, Thinsulate and carry a smartphone or GPS while hunting.
As i said ive seen it far too often.
If that's true, you are hanging with the wrong crowd.
OH , I don�t know Prairie dog . For some its about the gun . Im thinking no different then those who shoot AR�s , SKS or any type of battle rifle. Yet never served in the military . I wonder , are they Hypocrites because they don�t dress in combat fatigues ? Are they Hypocrites because they enjoy such rifles. Not in my opinion.
I must say this . These type of discussions are like trying to convince a liberal that they do more harm then good in that it ends up with insults vs. actual discussion base on merit of whats actually being said.
�NOT sayin anyone here is a liberal past anything but liberalization of rules . Just making a comparison.�
THUS, every time one of these discussions comes up and comments are judge by their merit , someone has to make a comment about those who don�t dress traditionally, leather under wear �.. . Yet ,,, and maybe I have missed it . But I have yet to read the other side openly calling the modern inline folks � Posers � or �Hypocrites�
Would it be that hard to substantiate � NO . as I said before . The advertising , articles and discussion threads ay one thing . But when backed into qualifying those oppenions ,, suddenly that info is all false , untrue ���.
Even when a common acceptable ground can be found . That ground must be guarded with a fever . For in short order that common ground will be forgotten .
Personally I could give a rats ass how you dress . But in all fairness , with the quality of a % the general hunting public these days your probably more then likely to get shot even if you tie a neon sign to your ass .
So if traditionalists are hypocrites . Then does that not make the modern inline folks Posers?
Hope its not political but I had a small doe get up and run off after shot with a 40 cal round ball. From now on I'll use a 50 or larger/ with maxi ball and relegate the 40 for target or squirrel work.
aka: 4065 Shooter, LBjr. Very interested in JH Durkee Muzzleloaders, slug guns, schuetzen, BPCRS
Hope its not political but I had a small doe get up and run off after shot with a 40 cal round ball. From now on I'll use a 50 or larger/ with maxi ball and relegate the 40 for target or squirrel work.
That can happen regardless of what projectile , gun or for that matter bow and arrow combo you chose to use . I submit that if that were not the case , then we would have little or no wound loss data for center fire seasons or for that mater muzzle loading hunts where 45 cal or better for deer and 50 cal or better for elk and bear are required .
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
A man with style. I really like that under hammer you posted up.
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
While some would say otherwise , Imo your in the traditional book as under hammers date rather early and were made in flintlock . The design was and still is based on a muzzle loading design and but for converting to cap ignition , were un changed in design by the early 19th century .
I would also say that some of the early inline designs would fall also into that category with alittle modification. But then most folks probably wouldn�t find then to pleasing to shoot . Not to mention rather troublesome in the ignition system
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
My underhammer dotes on Swiss 1.5 fg, cross strip patches and .50 caliber conicals. It is near 140 years old, has an ancient 16x scope and flies hate it.
Boom
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
What kind of underhammer do you have?
Just curious; why the 3f instead of 2f?
I built it.
I had small amounts of FFg and FFFg at the house when I was test firing, and the FFFg worked out more consistent in the round bottom rifling with (really) thick patches.
No matter how you try to spin it, traditionalist are typically hypocrites while they run around in Under Armor, Thinsulate and carry a smartphone or GPS while hunting.
As i said ive seen it far too often.
If that's true, you are hanging with the wrong crowd.
OH , I don�t know Prairie dog . For some its about the gun . Im thinking no different then those who shoot AR�s , SKS or any type of battle rifle. Yet never served in the military . I wonder , are they Hypocrites because they don�t dress in combat fatigues ? Are they Hypocrites because they enjoy such rifles. Not in my opinion.
I must say this . These type of discussions are like trying to convince a liberal that they do more harm then good in that it ends up with insults vs. actual discussion base on merit of whats actually being said.
�NOT sayin anyone here is a liberal past anything but liberalization of rules . Just making a comparison.�
THUS, every time one of these discussions comes up and comments are judge by their merit , someone has to make a comment about those who don�t dress traditionally, leather under wear �.. . Yet ,,, and maybe I have missed it . But I have yet to read the other side openly calling the modern inline folks � Posers � or �Hypocrites�
Would it be that hard to substantiate � NO . as I said before . The advertising , articles and discussion threads ay one thing . But when backed into qualifying those oppenions ,, suddenly that info is all false , untrue ���.
Even when a common acceptable ground can be found . That ground must be guarded with a fever . For in short order that common ground will be forgotten .
Personally I could give a rats ass how you dress . But in all fairness , with the quality of a % the general hunting public these days your probably more then likely to get shot even if you tie a neon sign to your ass .
So if traditionalists are hypocrites . Then does that not make the modern inline folks Posers?
I forget, sarcasm doesn't always come across well on the internet. What I meant was, if he thinks those guys are hypocrites for dressing in modern clothing and hunting with traditional muzzle loaders, he should just stop hunting with them.
To clarify my position on the matter;
If that makes me a hypocrite in another man's opinion, fine. He doesn't have to approve, join in, associate with me, hunt with me, or give a tinkers' damn about me.
I can't see how it's any of my business how another man wants to hunt (or dress).
If I don't like it, I just don't do it.
(If a liberal don't like it, he doesn't want anyone to do it.)
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke 1795
"Give me liberty or give me death" Patrick Henry 1775
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
Gay ... ???
You're shooting the .270 of MLs.
Build one, from scratch, better and then you can bitch.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
For purposes of clarification, for reasons not clear the attribution belongs here rather than on others quoted as saying the following...first page of this thread.
Originally Posted by Overkill45
No matter how you try to spin it, traditionalist are typically hypocrites while they run around in Under Armor, Thinsulate and carry a smartphone or GPS while hunting.
As i said ive seen it far too often.
Made me grind my teeth a bit. It is a broad statement that insults without justification IMO. There are a lot of traditional hunters in my neighborhood that do nothing of the sort. I'd guess these fellas might take offense.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
Gay ... ???
You're shooting the .270 of MLs.
Build one, from scratch, better and then you can bitch.
OK , but i think we would have to see RWE's underhammer first , to as to know just what level to consider better .LOL
RWE , i use 3 F in my 54 cal as well . in fact i even use it in my 62's .
OH and here are a couple of my builds
from this and other planks like them . I cut most of my english and black walnuts as well as Red and broad leaf maples , here localy it would take me way , way to long to upload and post photos LOL , but here are a few
I guess I will burn in hell. I shoot in lines. I have scopes on them. I load them with Blackhorn 209 powder. I put Dyna Bore Coat in the barrels so they don't foul so bad. I shoot plastic saboted bullets. The bullets are Barnes T-EZ, which are all copper AND have a plastic tip!
I do all that because it's better. I built my first couple of muzzle loaders back in the late '60s and early '70s. I used round balls, I used paper patched, I used conicals.
Now, I don't have to swab between shots. I don't have to limit myself to what a round ball can handle. I get better accuracy. I get better velocity with less. I get better range than even the conical bullets. I get better performance on the deer. It's all better. And, it's still a single shot muzzle loader.
I am currently shooting deer in a neighborhood that's overpopulated and very nearly impossible to control the population because the deer must be in just the right place, the hunter must be in just the right place and it all has to come together at the same time. Even a little screw up might make for Bambi running off and dieing in someone's front yard. People don't care as much if they hear an occasional shot that's not so loud and they don't have to see anything. While I am sure that many of then would rather not have shooting around them, I am also sure that they don't like their landscaping and gardens devoured.
I don't care about tradition. Given a choice, I'd opt for down loaded .223 ammo. I don't have that choce so I picked the best combination for killing very fast and clean. There's a lot to be said for efficiency.
I guess I will burn in hell. I shoot in lines. I have scopes on them. I load them with Blackhorn 209 powder. I put Dyna Bore Coat in the barrels so they don't foul so bad. I shoot plastic saboted bullets. The bullets are Barnes T-EZ, which are all copper AND have a plastic tip!
I do all that because it's better. I built my first couple of muzzle loaders back in the late '60s and early '70s. I used round balls, I used paper patched, I used conicals.
Now, I don't have to swab between shots. I don't have to limit myself to what a round ball can handle. I get better accuracy. I get better velocity with less. I get better range than even the conical bullets. I get better performance on the deer. It's all better. And, it's still a single shot muzzle loader.
I am currently shooting deer in a neighborhood that's overpopulated and very nearly impossible to control the population because the deer must be in just the right place, the hunter must be in just the right place and it all has to come together at the same time. Even a little screw up might make for Bambi running off and dieing in someone's front yard. People don't care as much if they hear an occasional shot that's not so loud and they don't have to see anything. While I am sure that many of then would rather not have shooting around them, I am also sure that they don't like their landscaping and gardens devoured.
I don't care about tradition. Given a choice, I'd opt for down loaded .223 ammo. I don't have that choce so I picked the best combination for killing very fast and clean. There's a lot to be said for efficiency.
Im not even going to dig into that other then to say thank you for the supporting comments concerning some folks opinions concerning modern muzzle loading.
Frankly ,, if you had all those issues with a traditional gun but don�t now with your modern gun ,,, well sir IMO you were doing things wrong or had a cheep piece of junk .
Burning in hell ?? that�s up to you . But frankly I don�t see a single reason why you should even have a comment when it would appear that the very reasoning that some folks are so against mixing traditional and modern muzzle loading can be substantiated by your experience . Im pretty sure that even most modern shooters would disagree with you . But ha 2 thumbs up . Just be careful that you don�t end up shooting a girl on a horse or a young girl in an Amish wagon some 2 miles away . Then trying to convince local law enforcements that your muzzle loading set up , isn�t capable
Frankly ,, if you had all those issues with a traditional gun but don�t now with your modern gun ,,, well sir IMO you were doing things wrong or had a cheep piece of junk .
Burning in hell ?? that�s up to you . But frankly I don�t see a single reason why you should even have a comment when it would appear that the very reasoning that some folks are so against mixing traditional and modern muzzle loading can be substantiated by your experience . Im pretty sure that even most modern shooters would disagree with you . But ha 2 thumbs up . Just be careful that you don�t end up shooting a girl on a horse or a young girl in an Amish wagon some 2 miles away . Then trying to convince local law enforcements that your muzzle loading set up , isn�t capable
Aw Jesus! Where to begin? Anyone who thinks BP fouls less than or equal to Something like BH-209 is either ignorant of just plain stupid.
I would express the same sentiment for anyone who thinks a PRB or conical can match the performance of something like a Barnes T-EZ. It just isn't going to happen in this lifetime. You can certainly kill with PRBs and conicals, but they can't give you the advantages a truly modern ML bullet can. At the worst, the absolute worst, a Barnes that has slowed to below where it will expand will still make a comparable hole to a PRB or conical, and that's going to be well after the PRB or conical. While at short range a PRB or conical can provide comparable accuracy, the further out you go the less they compare. That's why we use long, high SD bullets, better performance at range. Round balls shed velocity very, very fast. They are affected by wind more than longer heavier bullets.
All I am interested in is killing deer with maximum efficiency using a muzzle loader. Did I want to I could certainly do what I am doing using PRBs and a flinter. Because there are other people's sensibilities to consider, I just choose more efficiency as insurance against offending those sensibilities even though it is perfectly legal.
Like I said, given a choice I'd use a .223 with downloaded ammo and just head shoot them so they drop in their tracks. This is not hunting. This is killing deer in an overpopulation situation where deer hunting is still legal, but very difficult to accomplish with safety.
Guys, I got to admit, the zen here about traditionalists, large bore, small bore, flinters, percussion, BP versus substitutes and such have got me confused, and its hard to follow.
What am I if I hunt with a 54 caliber underhammer with prbs and Goex FFFg?
Gay ... ???
You're shooting the .270 of MLs.
Build one, from scratch, better and then you can bitch.
Do I have to build one ... from scratch?
Couldn't I just use my computer to order it on online and have it delivered by a modern sophisticated efficient transportation delivery carrier which puts it on my doorstep in a few days?
Cap, just a guess on my part but looking at your work I'd say your entrance to Heaven is assured. Beautiful craftsmanship by any standard I'm familiar with. Kudos!
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Aw Jesus! Where to begin? Anyone who thinks BP fouls less than or equal to Something like BH-209 is either ignorant of just plain stupid.
I would express the same sentiment for anyone who thinks a PRB or conical can match the performance of something like a Barnes T-EZ. It just isn't going to happen in this lifetime. You can certainly kill with PRBs and conicals, but they can't give you the advantages a truly modern ML bullet can. At the worst, the absolute worst, a Barnes that has slowed to below where it will expand will still make a comparable hole to a PRB or conical, and that's going to be well after the PRB or conical. While at short range a PRB or conical can provide comparable accuracy, the further out you go the less they compare. That's why we use long, high SD bullets, better performance at range. Round balls shed velocity very, very fast. They are affected by wind more than longer heavier bullets.
All I am interested in is killing deer with maximum efficiency using a muzzle loader. Did I want to I could certainly do what I am doing using PRBs and a flinter. Because there are other people's sensibilities to consider, I just choose more efficiency as insurance against offending those sensibilities even though it is perfectly legal.
Like I said, given a choice I'd use a .223 with downloaded ammo and just head shoot them so they drop in their tracks. This is not hunting. This is killing deer in an overpopulation situation where deer hunting is still legal, but very difficult to accomplish with safety.
Miles, one of the great things about the U.S. is freedom of choice, and another is freedom of speech. Not covered under the Constitution or Bill of Rights are acts of valor, discretion or the right to embarrass one's self as a result of exercising any of the former.
Firstly, take a breath and relax. Jesus likely has no opinion on this topic. My inquiry about your use of a large bore was rhetorical humor, nothing more. As to the beliefs of others or your own, everyone has their own opinions which are adopted on the basis of experience. It doesn't mean yours or theirs are superior, only that the belief exists. I'm going to address some of your comments I quoted in an effort to illustrate that point. No offense is intended.
Who cares which fouls more, or less? I mean, really, who cares? Does it matter what others think when YOU make your choices? Well, maybe yes and maybe no. Perhaps your choices were shaped by the opinions of others, it's not my place to judge that. To call someone stupid because they disagree with your opinion is a bit strong...in my opinion.
I was shooting a Stevens 44 chambered in .25-20 SS awhile back, the load containing 19 grains of BP. Was the first time I'd shot the gun and frankly I was a little surprised by the lack of smoke. Other shooters were as well, and asked me if I was sure it was BP. Well, it was Swiss 1.5 FG, compressed .060" with a .030 card wad in Bertram brass, capped by a bullet from an Ideal 257283 mould, alloyed 30:1. I fired 10 shots at the 50 yard line for a group of about 2" and called it a day. I did not swab the bore between shots and it took a total of 3 patches to clean and oil the bore. 3...patches. Done. To be candid, I did reverse the patches and use both sides, including the third which was an oil patch.
I would not have any idea what it takes to clean BP subs, but have seen a number of barrels ruined by the belief that they don't cause corrosion like BP. BS. This includes 777, Pyrodex and one other though I cannot recall what is was. BH209 may be an exception as I've read that it uses conventional bore cleaners (petroleum) rather than water. Foul less or more? I wouldn't know and have no desire to find out, nor can I imagine what I'd gain from using such propellents. It is my choice. If it works for you, then great, but it is little more than your opinion based on your experience.
On point of comparison of ballistic gak, the Barnes web site lists something in the range of .19 and .22 for a couple of .50 cal versions of the T-EZ, but we don't know what you are using. So OK, you have some muzzle velocity advantage...big whoop. I dally around with a few of lead conical shooters (muzzle loaders) that are quite a bit better than that, so if we want to stretch the range, how far before your stumpy little BC challenged bullet gives way to superior aerodynamics? It only matters when the question arises as to whether or not one is inclined to take the shot, no? When the velocity gets low my bullets, being pure lead with a flat meplate will expand if that matters. If not, one of them is a true .50 caliber so that's the hole I get. It will be beyond 400 yards before there is any chance of having to rely on that. As far as accuracy, I'm willing to race anytime you choose. No class rules, string measure, range of your choice. That I'm willing to do that says something about my opinion of my rifles and what I know they are capable of doing.
Same day I was plinking with the Stevens I had occasion to unlimber a .45 cal flint lock built by a fellow named Turpin. It's about long enough to reach over into the next zip code and I have hunted with it a bit. Enjoy shooting it a lot as did a friend who was with me that has an assault rifle w/can mentality. He even giggled a few times. Over the course of 15 shots offhand I swabbed the bore once about midway thru. 3 targets were shot and the groups averaged 2" for 5 shots each and on my part they were in the bull. It took me 6 patches to clean and oil the barrel and wipe the lock, cock and caboodle.
Upon retrieving the last target there was a fellow setting up next to my table with 3 gas guns, a big smile and making jokes about having to clean the thing twice each time I shot it. I had to ask if he wanted to race, offhand at 50 yards and waved the target in his face. He declined. I suppose I could argue that in his hands he might have done better on deer with the flinter? Or not...he seemed happy with 5" groups from a bag rest. His choice, my choice, we are both happy and moving on. Neither of us is stupid or ignorant.
That said, it matters not what you choose to use or why. I would appreciate it if you did not call me ignorant or stupid nonetheless. Yeah, I know it was a general comment not directed at ME, but if the shoe fits I'll wear it most times.
Use what you need to use on your deer cull operation. I do the same here in the Sunshine State for our Department of Environmental Protection for hogs. They restrict me to rimfires. I use a Contender chambered for shorts. There have been no escapees to date. There has been approximately 100 fatalities. I am so restricted due to this being a rural area with moderate residential development and they don't want the neighborhood in a snit. I have asked for variance from that restriction for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with external or terminal ballistic performance.
Info is on the target, take it for what it's worth.
Same gun, 200 yards with 15-20 L-R wind. 2 on the right are sighters, no adjustment was made for the next three shots that I made.
It cleans easy.
Best Regards,
Brainpan Dan
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Well, on my screen I quoted you. In response I pretty much said all I have to say about BH209. You might put a little polish on your flippant when you find the time.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Frankly ,, if you had all those issues with a traditional gun but don�t now with your modern gun ,,, well sir IMO you were doing things wrong or had a cheep piece of junk .
Burning in hell ?? that�s up to you . But frankly I don�t see a single reason why you should even have a comment when it would appear that the very reasoning that some folks are so against mixing traditional and modern muzzle loading can be substantiated by your experience . Im pretty sure that even most modern shooters would disagree with you . But ha 2 thumbs up . Just be careful that you don�t end up shooting a girl on a horse or a young girl in an Amish wagon some 2 miles away . Then trying to convince local law enforcements that your muzzle loading set up , isn�t capable
Aw Jesus! Where to begin? Anyone who thinks BP fouls less than or equal to Something like BH-209 is either ignorant of just plain stupid.
I would express the same sentiment for anyone who thinks a PRB or conical can match the performance of something like a Barnes T-EZ. It just isn't going to happen in this lifetime. You can certainly kill with PRBs and conicals, but they can't give you the advantages a truly modern ML bullet can. At the worst, the absolute worst, a Barnes that has slowed to below where it will expand will still make a comparable hole to a PRB or conical, and that's going to be well after the PRB or conical. While at short range a PRB or conical can provide comparable accuracy, the further out you go the less they compare. That's why we use long, high SD bullets, better performance at range. Round balls shed velocity very, very fast. They are affected by wind more than longer heavier bullets.
All I am interested in is killing deer with maximum efficiency using a muzzle loader. Did I want to I could certainly do what I am doing using PRBs and a flinter. Because there are other people's sensibilities to consider, I just choose more efficiency as insurance against offending those sensibilities even though it is perfectly legal.
Like I said, given a choice I'd use a .223 with downloaded ammo and just head shoot them so they drop in their tracks. This is not hunting. This is killing deer in an overpopulation situation where deer hunting is still legal, but very difficult to accomplish with safety.
Good morning folks First off , no where did I say your Buck horn fouled less then BP . What I said was that if you had to do all the things you said you did back in the 60�s and 70�s , then you were doing it wrong or where shooting a cheep piece of SH#$.
I do a lot of target shooting for the most part off hand . Some 30lbs of black powder a year . I don�t , nor do I know many , who swab their bores like that . Frankly im in the range of 25-30 shots , Depending on humidity , before I have to swab . Then when I do , it� because loading had started to get a little hard . Thats remedied by a wet patch , not a complete bore cleaning .
. Frankly with a quality bore and proper load ,unless your shooting for string or just wanting to , there should be no need to swab the bore like that . If you fouling is so great that you cant load . Then you have issue with your bore ore you using some crap lube . But then I have to wonder . Why is it that this would even be a concern . Surly if your set up is as effective and efficient as you say , you would only need to be shooting, what maybe 3 times in a day if your real lucky ???? I wonder how fast can you load and still be accurate . surly that would part of your efficiency numbers wouldn�t it .
As to clean up . I find clean up to be much along the lines of what Dan posted in that it only takes a 2-3 patches of Old thunder followed by a patch of Remmy oil . Frankly it takes no more time to clean the bore then it does the lock . However if I shoot Pyro or T7 , which I do in my old paper cartridge shot guns ,its a PITA scrubbing the barrels out in the laundry room . If you don�t , both will also eat the [bleep] out of the barrels
As to the rest of you post . Look . What your doing is trying to justify your opinion. Your welcome to it . That however doesn�t change the fact that dead is dead . No mater what type/ method a person chooses to use , if the result when used properly is a quick death , then that method was efficient . Place the PRB properly , with a correct load and it will be just as efficient as your super bullet at the same range . I don�t care if the thing expands to the size of a basket ball. Blades spring from its ass ��. Followed by small nuclear explosion . All that means is that you can miss by a larger margin and still be efficient .
Now what may not be efficient is the person. But you cant buy or down load , then plug it into a chosen orifice and suddenly gain what it is that you lack . Does not work that way . But then again maybe there is a super bullet that would allow a hit in the ass and still provide instantaneous death . But if that�s the standard for effective , then why not just use a 2 or 4 bore ???. For that matter mount a wall gun on your back deck . You want efficient that would be efficient
Now as to range and accuracy of the PRB . Just how the hell far are you shooting ? 100 , 200 , 300 ? Are you saying the PRB is not accurate enough for those ranges ? You do realize that history would prove you wrong . That same history tells us that that same PRB had the energy to kill horses at those distances yet somehow today it doesn�t . I guess because someone set up a standard that says you need X to kill �efficiently � So if some computer or mathematical program doesn�t say �YEEEEP� then it just cant be done . But then the bumble bee cant fly . Can it .
At some of those target events I mentioned earlier . Well we shoot long distance off hand . No scope , open sights , PRB . While I have yet to get as good as the recorded standard for a rifleman during the revolutionary war , I have managed to become efficient enough that I can place a 54 cal ball , with certainty , in the chest of a Human silhouette 150 yards . In the silhouette, with around 60% certainty out to 250 yards . On my best day 5 on target at 325 yards .. Factually I have not been able to do that since. All of which , by the way are / were witnessed and I have the bling to prove it .. Now would I do that hunting ,, nope , see no reason in gods green earth to do so.
So what you really chose was , what was most effective and efficient for you right now . that�s all your saying . Nothing less and nothing more . As to killing . Sir , I don�t care about killing, just plain killing ,anymore then you say you care about traditions .. . You might want a start though ,since those traditions maybe the only thing that keeps all of us hunting some day down the road . Killing isn�t not even on my list of reasoning for hunting . But is what your doing , really hunting or animal control . Would the two be considered the same and if so at what point would one differentiate . While I can understand what your saying as to the why . It seems to me to be a contradiction . Maybe im getting the wrong impression . All I know is that here , we place short range rules in rural areas so as to protect people while at the same time efficiently manage game . Seems that in your zeal your proving the very thing that the vast majority of people are trying to disprove .
However I submit to you this . God forbid but , 1 wrong step is all its going to take and you may just find yourself trying to convince folks that what your shooting is not capable of the very things your saying it is here . Those neighbors who you say , your sure appreciate not having their gardens and flowers eaten . Well I think I can say with certainty that many will turn on you and claim just the opposite. It happened with the girl that was shot off her horse and it happened with the Amish girl who was killed while driving down the road with her brother in a wagon .
So enjoy what you do . I have no problem with that . . Just don�t make some wild claims about efficiency , effectiveness , bla as that�s all subjective and based on your own experience. Which in turn appears by your statement to have possibly been derived lack of earlier experience and no real interest in gaining that experience . That sir is something I cant understand and frankly have no way , need or want to relate to as I just don�t see the benefit
you can learn fishhead . just find someone close who you can help you through . this was Juans first attempt
Quote
ok well , I maybe alittle premature on this but I just had to post this somewhere As im rather proud of this young mans first attempts . The rifles not finished and he still has a ways to go but its coming along nicely . I don�t have pictures of him building the triggers , trigger guard or the patch box . But I can attest that he made those as well . Stock is Black walnut , ebony nose cap Barrel . 36 in , 54 cal Colerain Manton lock Hand made sights Triggers are double set , single bar Ill have more and better photos as he progresses in the finish shaping and engraving maybe he will have it done by late spring LOL
Originally Posted by "RussB"
I like the gun too, but I'm really impressed with all that nice wood. WOW!
Uncle Russ...
A friend of mine has a place down along the snake river . I was down at his place setting up a smoothbore for a customer when the owner of the land next to DJ�s came down . We had finished shooting for the day and was setting back under the trees having a cold one when the subject of conversation turned to stock wood . DJ mentioned the figured walnut stock on Beaverman�s Isaac Haines rifle . That lead to the neighbor stating that he had an black walnut on his place that was at least 100 years old . It had died some 5-10 years back and was still standing down on the old homestead . Said I could have it if I wanted it other wise he was going to push it over and cut it up for fire wood in the next few weeks . So we packed up and went to take a look . We took a D9 and pushed it over . I cut it into 8ft lengths and we loaded them up on a car trailer with a front loader . I then stated calling around and found a local fella with a mill who agree do to slab it out for me for 100.00 and the cost of any blades he might tear up . I ended up with 22 planks ranging fro 8-24 inchs across , 4 to 6 inchs deep and 8 ft long . What you see in the photo is about 8 ft of what i have . That stack actually covers 12 ft of that wall and another 12 ft along another wall . wasn�t to long after that that I had a customer come in who was trying to make his own stock from an English walnut that his father had cut down some 30 years back and set the planks to dry . Problem was , he didn�t seal the ends so the planks split . He said that if I would cut him out a couple blanks for his Remington , he would give me what was left . Thus I have those two English walnut planks that are split , which you see in the photo . While split they still work for � stocks , butt and forearms or pistol stocks �. But for the most part they are split fairly bad . he also gave me an additional 5 planks that same size which are far more usable . however none of the english really has any figure to it . of the black walnut , i have maybe 5 planks that have very nice figure . every time i cut a stock out of it , its like christmas . you just never know whats hidding in there.
Juan finally decide on a base engraving pattern seen for the patch box . way , way above his skill level . not to mention mine. But since he talked me into giving it a go , I guess ill give it a shot. don�t think im good enough yet to do the pattern justice . We will just have to see how it turns out on a practice plate first .
basicly it will be this with a leaf pattern on the final and front half of the lid and final . then a rope patern around the back of the lid . as i said , i dont know . going to be a real challange for sure dont know who the artist was who drew this but ,DAM!! they sure did a good job. i guess im going to have to find out who the picture belongs to over the next coming months
well we had a change to the patch box engraving . now this is my first real attempt at Belino type engraving but i dont think it came out to bad . started it 2 weeks ago and finished it tonight . not the best photo . we took it with his cell phone . ill have better photos hopfuly later in the week .
you can learn fishhead . just find someone close who you can help you through.
I've been joking about this topic but I actually do have very honed skills in metal work and I am wicked good with a die grinder or Dremel tool. My first career was overhauling aircraft propellers and I've spent hundreds of hours deburring and stress relieving components with a die grinder. I know the limitations of what you can accomplish with die grinder and when other tools get the nod.
I'm pretty good with files too. That's what's used to shape the leading edge and tips of propeller blades when you refinish them.
Explain to me the difference using your logic between a .22LR and everything else.
The 22 kills just as dead and everyone else is doing it all wrong since 22 don't need cleaned but once a decade if that.
Funny , you want me to answer a question , yet you have not answered one yet ? Again see comparison to arguing with liberals.
I fail to see you comparison. Seems to me by your reasoning , everyone should be hunting with 300 �s or 50 cal BMG . Never mind we passed laws making it illegal to use the 50 in center fire . Now I wonder why some would want to do that ,,MMMMM??????? Do you think the 22 cannot kill ? . I can tell you it will and it will do it nicely when used within its practical range . When I was a boy , I killed a couple mule deer and one cow elk while setting on hay stacks. a lot of folks around here used the 22 especially poachers . I wonder , how far do you think the 22 will travel if its happens to be un obstructed and if you miss ?
now will it allow you to set on your back pourch and shoot deer in the field behind your house , nope . But when one takes the time to learn how to use it. then works within its effective range for the attended target . its will kill just as dead . no big bullet , no huge casing . now large recoil . nothing to thump ones chest and proclaiming how manly it is or how far you can kill with it . nope none of that. doesnt however make it less effective of less efficiant when used propely .....
Anyway . I would like to again thank you for supporting the very reasoning a lot of so called traditional muzzle loading hunters don�t want modern muzzle loading mixed under the premise of muzzleloader seasons Oh and just for you . Well, not just for you as i actually shot , recorded and posted this during another such discussion, very much like this one , 2 ??? Maybe 3 years ago ?
My target 1 shot . 10X10 target 175 yards , off hand , 54 cal flintlock, . .016 ticking . Spit lube , 80 grains 3F behind a .530 RM
Friends target Same yardage 1 shot off hand Same target 10x10 50 cal cap lock , .010 patch . .490 RB . Windex for Lube 90 grains 3F.
Close up You will see 2 hits 1) the paper tag �Kims � 2) 1 inch right , I inch high ,, �Mine �
I'm not doubting you Cap. I'm a fan of offhand shooting myself, and have probably 80% of my kills over the 6 decades i've been hunting have been offhand.
What i'm curious about is what sort of sights were you using for those 175 yd offhand shots. I assume a 6 o'clock hold so the front sight doesn't cover up the whole target? If that was the case I assume you had the gun sighted in for 175 yds so you needed no holdover.
I'm just looking for the specifics of how you did it? It's a hell of a shot at 175 yds.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
I'm not doubting you Cap. I'm a fan of offhand shooting myself, and have probably 80% of my kills over the 6 decades i've been hunting have been offhand.
What i'm curious about is what sort of sights were you using for those 175 yd offhand shots. I assume a 6 o'clock hold so the front sight doesn't cover up the whole target? If that was the case I assume you had the gun sighted in for 175 yds so you needed no holdover.
I'm just looking for the specifics of how you did it? It's a hell of a shot at 175 yds.
Well my sights are simple traditional fixed sights . Low flat fence with V notch in the back and matching medium blade with final , on the front ,. My rifle is sighted in for 100 yards . Its rather hard to explain. But rather simple to show someone . I do use a 6:00 hold. But at long distances im not aiming at the target im wanting to hit . This type off hand shooting also inst snap shooting though at the same time you don�t want to be standing up there all day or you will start conducting an orchestra with the muzzle .
I go through a routine where I point the rifle in the air well above the target . Settle the gun into my shoulder , set the triggers , then slowly begin to drop the muzzle as I exhale. As the front sight drops through the target . I bring the muzzle slowly back up , judging elevation and checking my sight picture .. IE im making sure that the target im aiming at , is aligned with the target im shooting at . Depending on how that alignment sets , I may raise an drop and raise the front sight a couple times before I fire .
Thus you don�t actually have to see the target your going to hit . It can be completely covered by the sight . The ball will drop onto the target . Now if you shooting for string . You want the aiming target to be as small as passable Your ability to hold on that aiming target will dictate the string of shots . So if you aim target is to big , you will then have a tendency to float and thus produce a larger string . Does that make since ????
OK so that leaves us with trying to figure out distance . IE if your distance isn�t correct you may shoot over or under . In this case the distance was marked / known . Since I know how much drop the ball has in my rifle , I know pretty much how high I need to aim Also I don�t trust charts . One has to IMO go out and learn their gun , so as to actually learn how their barrel throws a ball over a given distance . Once you learn that . You can then fine tune and make better judgments . When a group of us first started doing this , we simply would go out find a hill side that had a lot of dirt or sand . We would set a target and spend the day just trying to hit it . . Gradual more and more of us started hitting the target , so we would shoot off hand or move back farther. It doesn�t take to long and you start to get good at judging distance . Which as you know , get harder and harder the further out you get and the ball starts to slow thus drop more .. Now someone is bound to ask what to do if there is no back drop . Well, you don�t shoot .
outstanding DAN!!! 1 mile , in the wind , nothing but peep and still enough energy to snow flake the bullet
On the topic of snowflake bullets...
These were taken at the shoot in the video. I've known Kenny W. for several years and competed with him out in Cody sometime back. He is a gentleman, funny as hell and a dead shot with everything I've seen him shoot. He has a friend named Terry as I recall, the two of them are known as the "Harsh Brothers". Spend an hour with them and your ribs will hurt for a week from laughing.
Just don't think that he won't take you money just because the target is a long way off.
Dan
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Yep, it started a few years ago. You can even use a T/C Encore in 7mm-08 during our "muzzleloader" season.
You can not use a CF pistol though during the conservation area management ML hunts. Those are ML only and traditional ML only. Depends on the area you apply to hunt.
What state is this? ML season after rifle season, and centerfire pistols permissible during ML season? Strange, to say the least.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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