Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Why Use Large Bore For Deer?

Are there any 7mm or .308 saboted bullets for ML hunting?

If not, why not?

because they are so long and skinny, its hard to stabilize them.

And no one makes a barrel to overcome this issue?

Why not???
seems like a grand idea to me...

IMO if you want to use 7mm or 308 bullets, use a centerfire.

Another issue is the velocity rifle bullets have to be pushed at in order to open up.

Forgot to mention caliber restrictions as well. In colorado, to hunt elk, 50cal is minimum. Deer, bear, antelope, minimum cal is 45.

Then you have projectile restrictions, weight restrictions.

Bullets are too long for the common twists and the sabots would be too thick for high velocity loads. You would need to switch to a machined sabot made from something like nylon or maybe PVC. Those materials present a whole set of issues.

The closest working bullet i know of is the Precision Rifle 200gr 35cal in their 45x35 sabot or their duplex sabot. They work for some people.

Another reason they don't make them in the calibers you mention is the demand is virtually non-existent.

In Tennessee the minimum muzzleloader caliber for deer is .40. Since muzzleloaders have such low velocity, they make up for it with mass.

The main reason for having a ML season is to somewhat limit the range at which game can be taken. Turning a ML into the equivalent of a centerfire defeats the purpose.

I don't have a problem with it.

Quite a few 50cal and even 45cal ML loads are already the equivalent of a 45/70 single shot in FPE and or FPS. Mine happens to hit much harder if i choose.

Our minimum is a 40cal bore. It mentions nothing about the projectile other than sabots are allowed. A 40cal 200gr SST shot sabotless at 2700fps + is equal to or better than many CFs within typical hunting ranges.

You want a crazy range ML, look at Swinglocks 416. It will equal nearly any 416 CF on the market in FPS.

Here in Idaho the minimum for deer is 45.
It however was not always that way . Small calibers are also becoming more and more popular. But those are also mostly being built in RB guns
As I have mentioned many times before , the first muzzle loading rifle I built was a converted O3A3 . Thus a 30.06
2nd was a 30.30
I think fish head is probably very close as to the why .
Rifling isn�t as big an issue as one would think . Nor is velocity . A lot of folks might just be surprised to see just how fast a small bore can crank out . It really isn�t that hard to hit the 2200-2500ftps range .

I actually ask our game commission much this same question some years ago .
Ie: if a 30.30 win shooting a 170 gr bullet is legal for big game , then why not a muzzleloader , shooting the same grain bullet and producing the same or greater velocities?
The answer was that they wanted larger , slower and more short range weapons so as to be able to use muzzle loading as a way to manage game in areas closer to populations .
IMO , BS considering what they did next . but thats old water under the bridge .
Biggest issue I found was bullet design . In order to get a center fire bullet to load in my O3A3 from the muzzle , it had to be sub bore and then loaded with a patch . At lower powder charges it was reasonably accurate . But I could never get velocities without destroying the patch and losing accuracy .

Alloys aloud for casting and bore size bullets which could be loaded from the muzzle . Lower charges again proved to be most accurate . Attempts to reach velocities only proved to lead up the barrel and destroy bullets

I think today , if someone really wanted to , they could produce a barrel with rifling as well as bullets proper for such a application of both smokless and BP . Myself I think the real hang up is the mindset of bigger is better . Most certainly its a lot easier to deal with in every aspect ranging from safety to end user .

Some of the smokeless muzzleloader guys have a die that takes .45 caliber bullets and swages rifling onto the bullet so that it can be loaded into the barrel by aligning the bullet's grooves with the barrels lands. This eliminates the need for sabots.

Two companies now make two adjustable sizing dies. One engraves rifling the other does not.

Sabotless is amazingly effect once you get the correct fit. Some bullets fit some barrels with no sizing required. Parker bullets often fit the McGowan barrels straight from the package.

The aforementioned Swing-Lock muzzleloader is available in 6.5mm & advertised as being able to launch a 120gr bullet at 3400fps. The .30 cal version does 3000fps with a 180gr.

That is an expensive toy that would not be legal for our muzzleloading season. A friend of mine has a Swing Lock, but I have never shot it. He took it on an antelope hunt a couple of years ago and made a really long shot.

Swinglock can build nearly any caliber you could need. I think the 308 is relatively new. The 416 is just crazy though. 416 Weatherby performance+ in a ML....Wicked



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFjCjk0t6tM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P06E9gBtEXQ

As well it should be, IMO. I'm sure others will disagree, but the special muzzleloading seasons were created to give hunters using limited range weapons an opportunity to hunt without competing with the hoards during the general firearms seasons. When most of these seasons were initiated, the minimum .45 caliber restrictions were to ensure hunters were using enough gun. Nowadays it restricts people from going afield with .264/.300/.416 magnum ballistics. Hardly in the spirit of the season. In general firearms season though, be my guest.
Just my 2 cents, YMMV

But using a 451 Gibbs would be legal and they win countless long range shooting matches even today.

I doubt most of the traditionalists would object to them being used even though it will outclass most inlines in long range performance.

Those NMLRA matches are really interesting and the Gibbs do win, against similar match legal rifles...Whitworths, Volunteers, Rigbys, Henrys, etc. It has little to do with how effective they are as hunting rifles. They're no better, or worse, than any "traditional" muzzleloader. The game is different though. Your "target" may show up at an undetermined range, probably not stay still for more than a few seconds at a time, and you don't get a couple sighter shots before firing for record. The ballistics of a 500gr bullet @ 1200fps in a rifle sighted for 100yds will hit almost 8 FEET low at 300. Compare that to any of the Swing Lock offerings or a smokeless .45 pushing a .40 200gr @ 2700fps, <20" drop @ 300, and the advantage is obvious. Throw on a scope with ballistic reticle and you give up nothing to any firearm in the woods during general rifle season.
Don't get me wrong. I like them all (and own most) but there's gotta be a line drawn somewhere in regards to special seasons.

Again, my 2 cents and there's plenty who don't share it.

The fact remains, a traditionalist has no problem with a 451 Gibbs taking deer at extreme range but has a fit over any inline during a ML season. Ive seen it time and time again. Show the guy a White sporting rifle and he drools over it. Put the same Douglas barrel in front of a 209 and its blasphemy.

Our season has basically no restrictions other than 40cal minimum. We do have cap and ball only draw hunts in prime conservation land. Conicals are allowed even though its refered to as cap and ball. No scopes and no 209 primers.

Give me a part of the archery season instead of after firearms season and i might be more sympathetic to traditional methods.