24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.

I got to thoroughly test IMR4166 this summer, and it worked as advertised in a bunch of rounds from .204 Ruger to .45-70. Data for all three "Enduron" powders is now up on the Hodgdon website.

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
BP-B2

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,360
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,360
Dang, now I have new numbers to remember.


"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.

I got to thoroughly test IMR4166 this summer, and it worked as advertised in a bunch of rounds from .204 Ruger to .45-70. Data for all three "Enduron" powders is now up on the Hodgdon website.

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.


Sounds great. I wished they would just make a new improved IMR 4350 that is an extreme powder like H4350... I guess I'll have to try to remember another # as well...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
I wish they would just focus that energy on catching up on production of existing powders...

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
True!!! They need to get on the ball and start putting out more H4350!!!!!


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
IC B2

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,707
L
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
L
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I wish they would just focus that energy on catching up on production of existing powders...



+1

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Faster I go, the behinder I get. Dang it, there's already 3-4 dozen powders out there I never tried.

I'm not as looney as I want to be.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
Dan, I'd be happy for the rest of my life just running RL 15 and H4350 in all of my rifles. I don't really need to have to remember more powder #'s..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
P
prm Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Appreciate the heads up. Didn't see anything in the 338 Fed data to change what I'm already using, but interesting anyway.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,467
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,467
Wondering when if ever I will see a good selection of any powder, let alone new powders.. Thanks for the update one never knows.

IC B3

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
JB, thanks for the news. Did you find any really sweet loads as you played with it this summer? 4166 looks promising for my 7-08, and 7977 in a 270win may be good too.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,015
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,015
Thanks for the heads up. I too wish they would just make more of the stuff. A year ago I could barely find any powder but was still able to snag some at $32/lb. Now it is up to $40/lb and we are lucky to find a choice of one or two powders - IMR3031 and IMR4064 these days.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,137
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,137

Yeah, few weeks back I bought some H-4350, cost me $40.00 for one pound.


Randy
NRA
Patriot Life Benefactor





Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
Originally Posted by Arac
Thanks for the heads up. I too wish they would just make more of the stuff. A year ago I could barely find any powder but was still able to snag some at $32/lb. Now it is up to $40/lb and we are lucky to find a choice of one or two powders - IMR3031 and IMR4064 these days.



I've been seeing a lot of H414 as well..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,467
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,467
Pistol powders seem to be really rare around my parts. Just about out of Bullseye... Rifle seem to be hit and miss. Available but not the exact recipe. Prices are up as well still under $40 per pound but who knows..

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,609
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,609
Quite a bit of rifle powder at the tanner show this weekend, all for $28-$32 a pound.

Not a single can of pistol powder in the entire place.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Sounds great. I wished they would just make a new improved IMR 4350 that is an extreme powder like H4350... I guess I'll have to try to remember another # as well...


I think John just said that.....

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.




165 GR. SIE SPBT


Starting Loads

Maximum Loads



Manufacturer

Powder

Bullet Diam.


C.O.L.


Grs.


Vel. (ft/s)


Pressure



Grs.


Vel. (ft/s)


Pressure




IMR

IMR 4451

.308"

3.300"



53.3

2,658

49,100 PSI



57.4

2,858

59,200 PSI

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,559
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,559
4756 is the one I am worried about.


Sam......

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Dan, I'd be happy for the rest of my life just running RL 15 and H4350 in all of my rifles. I don't really need to have to remember more powder #'s..


Betcha we could get drunk sometime whilst extolling the virtues of such. grin


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,727
laugh cool


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
D
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
True!!! They need to get on the ball and start putting out more H4350!!!!!

Powder Valley has H-4350 in stock, $22.45/pound, ready to ship.

DF


Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,629
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,629
3rdGen has IMR4350 & several other IMR's in stock for a couple of dollars more. Nothing I noticed for pistols though.


'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)

SotG
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,834
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,834
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.

I got to thoroughly test IMR4166 this summer, and it worked as advertised in a bunch of rounds from .204 Ruger to .45-70. Data for all three "Enduron" powders is now up on the Hodgdon website.

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.


Key point that was missed in the above is availability date(s). . . "Early 2015 . . . " which is about as generic as it gets. I wouldn't be running to my LGS asking for it the day after New Years.

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1413848877yn6a7rhwm83


I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
Just looking at some 7-08 loads and it looks like 4166 has the same max charge and velocity as Varget...but pressure at max was lower. Could it be the one to replace Varget!? What....there's a target on my back? LOL!

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
It says 4166 will be first and they're saying November '14 here: http://www.lohmanarms.com/product_p/imr41661.htm

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
After reading the posts, here are some other observations. Aside from Pyrodex and some of the other black-powder substitute-type products, Hodgdon doesn't "make" rifle powders.

Instead they contract with other companies to produce them. H4350 and the other Extremes are made in Australia, and there have been some bottlenecks in supply from there, not caused in any way by Hodgdon. Among the bottlenecks is that, due to increased demand, more ships full of powder have been leaving Oz for the U.S. They normally refuel and resupply at Auckland, New Zealand, but the Kiwis got nervous about more than one ship loaded with powder being in their harbor, so ruled that only one powder ship would be allowed at one time. This naturally slows down shipments.

Two, the Australians can only make so much powder, and demand is still well above average. The old law of supply and demand definitely applies, even though many handloaders apparently can't understand such a basic economic principle. That's one reason the price has gone up.

In fact, apparently shooters in general can't understand why there are still "shortages" of rimfire ammo and some loading components. These are the same shooters who, two years after Obama's reelection, are often buying all the rimfire ammo they can find at inflated prices, anytime they can find it, or buying several 8-pound jugs of powder, where they used to buy a couple pounds. Factories can only produce so much, and they are NOT going to increase their capacity 10 times just to satisfy the panicky desires of shooters in the U.S., who may suddenly decide after next month's election there's no need to hoard .22 shells or powder anymore, or may finally fill their garages so full there's no more room for either.

I suspect (but don't know) that among the reasons for Hodgdon contracting with the factory in Canada for the Enduron powders is that shipping powder from Canada to Kansas is much easier (and cheaper) than shipping powder from Australia. The ability to make temperature-resistant powders isn't unique to Oz, and if Hodgdon can supply other powders that do the same things (actually more, with the decoppering agent) without the hassles and expenses of overseas importing, why wouldn't they?

I also suspect the reason IMR4451 isn't called some version of 4350 (HMR4350, or 4350.2?) is that there are already THREE versions of 4350 on the market. But 4451 fills basically the same niche, and may be the best version of all.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,731
S
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,731
Nah, it's really a government conspiracy.......



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
So how much is there to the "decoppering" agent claims, John? Marketing or truth? I haven't played with the others that have it to know myself, yet.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Decoppering agents have been around for a long time, but not in many handloading powders. They're really pretty simple, a slight amount of some soft metal that combines with the copper, making it brittle, whereupon most of the copper's blown out of the bore with the next round.

The oldest decoppering agent is lead. It doesn't even have to be combined with the powder; artillery shells often had a coil or piece of lead foil placed on top of the powder charge, under the projectile. (As you might imagine, it's a PITA to clean copper-fouling out of a cannon barrel.)

But decoppering agents have been in a lot of military small-arms powders for years, mostly due to automatic rifles, and when those same powders are sold to handloaders they work well. Ramshot TAC, for instance, is a Belgian powder originally designed for NATO military rounds, the reason it contains a decoppering agent and the other Ramshot rifle powders don't, even though they're made by the same factory and use the rest of the same basic technology. Some of the older ball powders sold by Hodgdon also have long had decoppering agents.

These days lead pollution is unpopular, of course, so other decoppering agents are used. Bismuth is a good one, for instance.

I tested the decoppering of IMR4166 by shooting my Thompson/Center Icon .223 for 100 rounds without cleaning, while making other tests with the powder. The Icon's barrel doesn't foul a lot, but it does end up with enough copper inside after 100 rounds to show up plainly in a bore-scope, and to turn a solvent-soaked patch a definite blue. After cleaning out the slight amount of powder fouling with some alcohol-soaked patches, there was only a hint of any copper in a few places inside the bore, and a patch soaked in Montana X-Treme Copper Killer showed only a very faint hint of blue.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
Great info, John. Thanks!

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
Looking at 7977 for my 270. A 150 bullet cruising at 2940fps out of the lowly (aka "gay") 270 is nothing to sneeze at.

JB, you wouldn't be scheduled to do a magazine article on the new powders by chance?

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I got acquainted with IMR4166 while doing an article for the upcoming Hodgdon Annual Manual.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Mule Deer,

Thanks for the updates, and the updates to the updates.

Quote
The oldest decoppering agent is lead.

Whatdoyaknow, thought it was tin.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038
J
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
J
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038
Thanks for the update. I understand now why I saw IMR4350 on shelves before H4350.

Hodgdon has their online "Reloading Data Center" updated with the new powders. Performance with IMR 4451 and 180s in the 30-06 appears to be similar to H4350 and IMR4350, for velocity. They say 55.5 grains should give about 2750 fps out of a 24-inch barrel, at under 60K PSI (SAAMI standard). Not that I would load above a manufacturer's recommendation for the old war horse...

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,420
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,420
So, why the heck is Australia our powder stash? Law? Raw materials? Labor? Fosters lager?


Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,108
A
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
A
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,108
Originally Posted by hatari
Dang, now I have new numbers to remember.


And dang, I just bought two 8lb jugs of H4831.........


Casey


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
P
prm Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
JB, Any hints as to whether the 4451 is a good candidate for the 338-06? No load data with hodgdon, but H4350 has shown to be quite good for 210-225gn bullets. I've found that powders, even of very similar burn rate, as shown in charts, can have quite different results in actual application.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
My guess is 4451 probably would be very good in the .338-06. As you note, it's sometimes hard to tell exactly what will happen even when powders supposedly have similar burn rates, but single-based extruded powders like the Enduron line tend to perform most predictably.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
P
prm Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Thanks. I'll keep an eye out, and if I find some I'll give it a go with 225 Partitions. I have a few hundred of those I need to find a use for.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,894
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,894
I just wished the ship with the Trail Boss would get here. grin

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,636
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,636
Originally Posted by Mule Deer


I also suspect the reason IMR4451 isn't called some version of 4350 (HMR4350, or 4350.2?) is that there are already THREE versions of 4350 on the market. But 4451 fills basically the same niche, and may be the best version of all.


Why do you say that, John?

Pretty significant statement, considering the competition...


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Temperature resistance AND a decoppering agent.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828
In just my shooting life time,when I really started loading my own ammo in 68 and what we have for choices today is mind boggling to say the least, I started with surplus WW-II 20mm Cannon Power call 4831 and IMR-4350 now gee you could no nuts or broke trying all the stuff we have available today, panic buying not with standing! IMR-4151 just may become my new favorite powder for loading my 7 x 57! Time will tell.


"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."

Anton Chekhov


Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Slight topic change. Mule Deer, have you heard about availability of any of the RamShot powders? I don't get to the gun stores very often, but I haven't seen anything from them in a LONG time.


Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
A
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
Ramshot powders around here have dried up !

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
The big problem with Ramshot rifle powders was a fire at the factory in Belgium more than a year ago. Everything's fixed now, but they're still catching up with orders. Their most popular rifle powder is TAC, so that's what's showing up first; the others will be coming along ASAP.

Of course, the panic buying since Obama's reelection hasn't helped any.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
If any of you guys see True Blue on the shelf just leave it there. It sucks ass.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,331
A
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,331
"Some of the older ball powders sold by Hodgdon also have long had decoppering agents". JB

Is H414 one of the powders with the de-coppering agent? Would you list which powders have it, please?

Last edited by AnsonRogers; 10/23/14.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,871
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,871
For Mule Deer
If what you have said then 4451 should be the better powder for my loading of the 358NM with 250 gr. bullets! Am I correct?
Thanks for your time. Cheers NC

Last edited by northcountry; 10/23/14.

don't judge until you have walked a mile in other persons' moccasins'
SUM QUOD SUM........HOMINEM TE ESSE MEMENTO
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Thanks MD!


Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,784
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,784
Originally Posted by deflave
If any of you guys see True Blue on the shelf just leave it there. It sucks ass.



Travis


It belongs there, right next to Competition.

It blows......


Sic Semper Tyrannis
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Now I'm curious: What are the specifics about why you and Travis don't like True Blue and Competition?

I'm not going to argue with you, but one of the things I do when writing articles about handloading various cartridges is try everything that seems, from published data, that it might be worth trying. While True Blue and Competition haven't stood out anymore than most powders, I've also gotten good results in several handgun loads with both, though I use Competition more for shotshell loading.

I should also probably point out that while both are Ramshot "brands," neither is made in the same factory (or even on the same continent) as the Ramshot rifle powders.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
MD,

I think if you were to see Travis and Dutch say in person what they wrote about those powders you would suspect they had ulterior motives for those statements. wink

At least that's my impression, but nuanced communication such as sarcasm certainly isn't as easily discerned from forum posts as it is in person - the reason emoticons are sometimes useful.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Are you insinuating I could be selfish?



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Ah, yes, "suck"ered again by Campfire goblins--and it's still a week to Halloween....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Never, Travis! cool

Who's to say where the line is drawn between self preservation and selfishness? wink

I'm looking forward to a day when powders are on shelves in abundance and we can point to these as the bad old days of scarcity.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Ah, yes, "suck"ered again by Campfire goblins--and it's still a week to Halloween....


True Blue is some good stuff. But please don't publish that in any articles.




Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Originally Posted by Ramblin_Razorback
Never, Travis! cool

Who's to say where the line is drawn between self preservation and selfishness? wink

I'm looking forward to a day when powders are on shelves in abundance and we can point to these as the bad old days of scarcity.


At the local shop I like to explain which powders produce the worse accuracy and why.


Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Darn! I just dumped 6lbs of True Blue on the flower bed on Travis's recommendation.


Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,784
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,784
Mule Deer, I shot up a couple of 4 (?) lb cans of Competition in 12 gauge target loads (pretty sure they were 1 oz loads). Of all the powders I have used for target loads over the years (Red Dot, Clays, Promo, Tightwad, American Select come to mind) it was my least favorite. Very dirty, inconsistent reports, that sort of thing.

Never used it in hand guns, and YMMV.


Sic Semper Tyrannis
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,705
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,705
Listen you blokes, leave the new stuff alone and keep burning through the Extreme line.

If demand for it drops there, they'll start making less of it here and all I can see that doing is driving prices higher than the FIFTY FIVE DOLLARS per 500 grams I am paying now!!!

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,539
E
EdM Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
E
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,539
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Dan, I'd be happy for the rest of my life just running RL 15 and H4350 in all of my rifles. I don't really need to have to remember more powder #'s..


Bingo. I do not chase RCH's. Any appropriate powder will get me withing 50 fps of optimum. That said, some folks do have to make a living on such "news", that I do understand.


Conduct is the best proof of character.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,046
A
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,046
Originally Posted by bobnob17
Listen you blokes, leave the new stuff alone and keep burning through the Extreme line.

If demand for it drops there, they'll start making less of it here and all I can see that doing is driving prices higher than the FIFTY FIVE DOLLARS per 500 grams I am paying now!!!


The downside of Australia that is so unknown to the outside.....Aussies get stolen from every time they buy anything.
I filled up last night @ $2.87 a gallon or about half what Aussie's pay and they have their own oil from Bass Strait. The Oz Govt will never disclose what it costs per barrel to extract. The Greiner 3+3 tax per litre (That is $0.03 per litre for 3 years to fund roadworks) added in 1987 was never lifted, they just stopped advertising the tax.

The Aussie designed and made Holden Monaro was imported to the US and sold as the Pontiac GTO. I saw them for as little as $26,000 new where by Aussies paid 2-3 times that for the same car and that is just 2 examples of thousands.

Cold beer and sunshine ain't everything.


When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,705
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,705
Indeed John.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,640
B
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
B
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,640
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Decoppering agents have been around for a long time,


I used to think decoppering agents in powder was just a farce or a new marketing tactic etc.

I found out I was wrong, some powders with decoppering agents work and work amazingly well.

Recently I was doing load development on a new 6ppc barrel, I used the same cases,primers, bullets on all loads so the only difference was the powder. I used the tried and true VVN133,the new Accurate LT-32 and IMR8208XBR.

To make a long story short VVN133 and Accurate LT-32 would leave a trace of copper with a single shot down the barrel and with as many as 30 shots down the barrel the IMR8208XBR left absolutely zero copper !!!!!! amazing

N133 has been around forever but it makes me wonder why Accurate did not use a decoppering agent in the LT-32

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Probably because LT-32 was primarily intended for benchrest shooting, and benchrest shooters are going to scrub the hell out of their bores after every few shots anyway!


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,910
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,910
Are there current available powders with a de-coppering agent suitable for the 300 win mag w/165 and 180 grain bullets?
I've got a barrel that's a terrible fouler. It doesn't get used much because of that.


"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
The new IMR powders that started this thread are supposedly available right now. 4451 and 7977 would be the two to try in the .300.

Or you could also install Dyna Bore Coat.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,910
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,910
This one would be a good candidate for DBC, I'll try that first as I'm in the process of super cleaning the bore right now.


"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
D
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
Yeah, super clean bore is key to successful DBC application.

I think some of the DBC "failures" we read about are from not fully cleaning the bore, pre-application.

I'm biased towards the Hawkeye to check it out. A clean patch doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.

DF

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,331
A
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,331
Originally Posted by AnsonRogers
"Some of the older ball powders sold by Hodgdon also have long had decoppering agents". JB

Is H414 one of the powders with the de-coppering agent? Would you list which powders have it, please?


Up again.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
It's been a while since I've seen the list, but I believe it includes 748 and maybe some of the others, perhaps H335.

The problem with many older spherical powders is they burn (or burned) so dirty the resulting powder fouling (which is pretty abrasive) tended to negate the value of the decoppering agent. While newer versions of those older powders tend to burn somewhat cleaner, decoppering agents are most effective in cleaner-burning powders. There are also some other extruded powders that supposedly contain decoppering agents, I believe some of the Reloder series, but I've never seen much reduction in copper-fouling when using them--and as with many other things such as primers and bullets, companies will vary the formula from year to year. Probably the best thing to do is ask powder companies themselves for the latest info.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,299
P
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
P
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,299
Considering the total lack of Ramshot Big Game, will any of these new powders work their magic in the 9.3x62?

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,977
W
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,977
I called Alliant Powder Co and they said they did not have any de-coppering agent in their powders. I talked to a guy that I think answered the phone after I had to go through a contract service co to get to him.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I'd guess 4416 would work with both 250's and 286's, since it's in the same approximate burn-rate range as Varget and RL-15. 4451 might be about right for 286's, but Hodgdon doesn't have them listed on their data for the 9.3x62 yet.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,299
P
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
P
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,299
The problem I had calling them once before was they didn't want to acknowledge that the round can be safely loaded to modern pressures.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
D
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,824
Originally Posted by pabucktail
The problem I had calling them once before was they didn't want to acknowledge that the round can be safely loaded to modern pressures.

You're going to find that with older classic rounds, like 6.5x55, 7x57, etc.

Some providers will give loads for modern actions, some stick to vintage gun limits.

I like to research on line for that type data. Load Data is a good source, but you have to subscribe. To me, it's a good deal, as they have most proprietary loading manual data and you won't have to buy a stack of those to have the info.

DF

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 478
P
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
P
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.

I got to thoroughly test IMR4166 this summer, and it worked as advertised in a bunch of rounds from .204 Ruger to .45-70. Data for all three "Enduron" powders is now up on the Hodgdon website.

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.


Good to know. I'll be doing some 4166/8x57 loading over the winter.


Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
FYI, Lohman arms claims to have all 3 in stock. Graf's and powder valley have 4166.

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.

I got to thoroughly test IMR4166 this summer, and it worked as advertised in a bunch of rounds from .204 Ruger to .45-70. Data for all three "Enduron" powders is now up on the Hodgdon website.

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.


Saw all of those at the LGS yesterday, 29.00 a pound. Saw something else, Hodgdon killed off the IMR 800X. Its now Hodgdon HI-Skor 800X. laugh Whats up with that?

Was limited to 2 lbs per day, picked these up yesterday, going back today for 2 more.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Swifty52; 11/16/14.


Swifty
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Originally Posted by NTG
So how much is there to the "decoppering" agent claims, John? Marketing or truth? I haven't played with the others that have it to know myself, yet.


In 1919 IMR # 15� added 2% tin to IMR # 15 to reduce metal fouling from jacketed bullets. (this powder is commonly known as IMR 4064

In 1923 IMR # 17� added 2% tin to IMR # 16 to reduce metal fouling from jacketed bullets. (Commonly known as IMR 3031)

Dupont patented adding Tin dioxide to rifle powder in 1912 or 1913 as a decoppering agent in rifle barrels for the military.

Hatcher or Whelen talked about cutting up Tin foil and putting it in 30.06 cases which decreased the copper fouling in the early rifles designed for the new High pressure 30 cal.



Swifty
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
Powder valley had 4166 and has 4451. Tempting.

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
FYI, new burn rate chart with the powders: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202014-2015.pdf

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,571
E
efw Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,571
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Dan, I'd be happy for the rest of my life just running RL 15 and H4350 in all of my rifles. I don't really need to have to remember more powder #'s..


Sorta +1; mine would be RL15 & Hunter, though.

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,585
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,585
IMR 7977 looks like it would be great in four of the cartridges I run. 243 Win, .257 Roy, 6.5x55, and .300 Win Mag.

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
Anyone done some loads with these yet?

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,146
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,146
Just picked up some 4451 at the LGS to try in my 338WM when conditions improve.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,618
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,618
Used to try to find the perfect powder for my load. After the first Obama powder shortage I bought quantities of Varget and H4831. Am giving up some performance but will never be hurt by it.


Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Originally Posted by laker
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I wish they would just focus that energy on catching up on production of existing powders...



+1


+10000, and Alliant as well.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I may have already pointed the following out on this thread, and have on other threads, but will do so again:

Most rifle powders aren't "produced" by the companies that sell them. Instead they're made by various factories around the world, per contracts with the powder companies we know, such as Alliant and Hodgdon. Essentially our familiar powder companies are contractors and distributors, often ordering and selling powders from several different factories in different countries.

These factories are producing as much as they can. There have been problems with some supply lines, whether due to accidents at factories or bottlenecks in shipping, but the big problem isn't in producing tons of powder.

Instead it's much like the "shortage" of .22 rimfire ammo that's being going on ever since Obama was reelected in November of 2012: Shooters are buying far more of everything than they did before then, including all the powder of a certain type whenever they find it.

The .22 "shortage" is worse, because apparently some people are still buying rimfire ammo to resell. But U.S. handloaders have become hoarders, buying more than we used to (which often means everything on the shelf, or we're allowed to by a mail-order company) any time we find powder, bullets, cases or whatever else we often use.

Various companies have recently told me that they've seen demand slacken a little, though not much, and certainly not like what firearms companies have seen in the past year. But we're still buying far more components than we used to--and far more than we probably will in a year or two, especially since the recent American election went so well for Republicans.

Some companies have added a manufacturing capacity, but not much, especially the foreign companies that make powder for U.S. distributors. Why should they? They're selling everything they can make, and in fact most are growing a little weary over the insatiable demand of America. I know American .22 rimfire makers are tired of it, because many are located in areas with limited numbers of available workers. While many workers at first appreciated the overtime involved in 24/7 manufacturing, many also grew tired of working all the time and found some other job.

Most of the shooters who like to complain about companies not producing all the stuff they used to find on store shelves should take a look in the mirror. They'll find the main culprit looking back.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,713
J
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
J
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,713
Originally Posted by Mule Deer

Most of the shooters who like to complain about companies not producing all the stuff they used to find on store shelves should take a look in the mirror. They'll find the main culprit looking back.


John,

You certainly have far more access to far more sources of information than I, but the cause of the problem might be more multi-faceted than your note above suggests.

In speaking with sales reps at Powder Valley, Midway, and Graf's over the last few years, they all say that while they have abnormally high numbers of orders in recent years, they are not receiving product to fill orders. One rep a couple of years ago at Powder Valley noted that they were actually shipping far fewer powder orders than they had just a few years beforehand and their actual number of completed transactions for powder was down due to the inability to fill orders. That was a couple of years ago, maybe it is better now.

I've read a few times that with respect to powder coming from ADI, the US and New Zealand imposed new transportation regulations, which restricted (i.e. reduced) the movement of powder by sea compared to prior practices. That is just one example of one cause other than the man in the mirror.

Also, is it not coincidental that just before hunting season/elections, all of the sudden powder and ammo again appeared on shelves?

Additionally as part of the problem, as part of the military base downsizing policies over the last decades, which began decades ago, some government run ammo plants that produced ammo, powder and powder related products exclusively for the military were shut down in order to "privatize" production. I know of one very large plant in East Texas that was shut down in the early 1990's, which had produced ammo and other powder related products such as solid rocket fuel since WW2. I believe there was another similar plant in Alabama or somewhere in the South that produced powder and related products exclusively for the military that was shut. Thus, production capacity to fill government orders decreased, just before a major war effort ramped up.

That last point is one that seems to be lost or forgotten - we have been in a major war effort for over a decade now. The coverage on the evening news now is a fraction of what I remember from watching Walter Cronkite report every night on the Vietnam war. Today, watching TV at night or listening to the news, it is easy to not notice that there are 10's of 1,000's of men and women fighting, and we as a country are at war. That we can even buy ammo and reloading components in the midst of a war would amaze our parents who lived with food rationing during WW2.

fwiw for consideration and discussion.

One silver lining in this ongoing shortage, I was "forced" to try IMR and Accurate powders and some other powders such as the spherical/ball powders for the first time in a long time. In doing so, I found there are some nice products and I'll keep using them even when my prior favorites are available again. The shortage actually has made me willing to try lots of alternatives, and as a result, I've developed a broader base of reloading knowledge. So, there is one modest positive.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
The reason distributors are getting less powder (and .22 ammo, and everything else) to ship is NOT because companies are making less, but because more distributors and store chains are ordering more. Orders exceed production by so much that manufacturers have to allocate shipments so that everybody gets some of what they ordered, but not everything.

I also know for a fact, however, that a few distributors and stores aren't getting what they used to get because they blame it all on the manufacturers. An example is a big sporting goods store in the Midwest that ordered a bunch if rimfire ammo. The company sent them their complete order, but the store allowed anybody to buy however much they wanted, so was out in a week, with a supply that normally lasted three months. The store immediately put in another order for the same amount of ammo, and when they didn't get it immediately started telling their customers the manufacturer wasn't filling orders. The manufacturer knew this because they started getting calls and e-mails from the store's irate customers. As a result they quit selling to that store.

I have mentioned the New Zealand problem with ADI and Hodgdon in previous posts, so only alluded to "bottlenecks" in this one. It's no big secret. The big problem, in fact the source of all the trouble, is exactly as I stated, shooters buying far more than they usually do, or they even need.



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,713
J
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
J
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,713
John,
My apologies, no offense intended and not trying to put you on the defensive, just trying to have a discussion to better understand the root causes.

Let's not conflate 22LR with smokeless powder shortages. I am really just interested in the powder shortage cause for purposes of this discussion.

Trying to sort through your answer, do you believe that the supply of Varget actually available to complete retail transaction in the US has been constant for the last 10 years? This seems inconsistent with the anecdotal reports of the vendors, and my own personal experience, as just one example.

What I see is that one particular powder will appear in lots of stores at once. Then months later all stores have a different powder, but they all have it.

The ADI (supplier of Varget) "bottleneck" equals a supply side problem. The problem is not with the powder manufacturer, and not the retail customers, but a change in government policy, which is restricting delivery, and thus reducing the supply in the US to fill retail orders.

Powder Valley customers cannot be hoarding that which is not even in the warehouse to fill an order, unless reading your example above you believe Hodgdon has cut off Powder Valley, Midway, Graf's and their colleagues, which would seem to be an odd policy.

Thoughts?

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I'm not getting defensive, but now I am getting a little pissed. DO NOT assume anything about Hodgdon and Powder Valley because of the story I told about the .22 ammo. That was merely an example of how SOME people have tried to put all the blame on manufacturers, when the real problem was, again, much higher demand.

Let me state it again, a little differently, and maybe you'll grasp the problem: There's so much demand, more distributors are ordering more. There isn't enough powder to fill all the orders, so each gets a prorated part of what they ordered when powder does show up. The companies with the longest-standing orders get the first supplies.
I know this through talking to several different powder companies.

The reason Hodgdon powders tend to show up in batches is they come from Australia in ships. When a ship full of powder shows up, a bunch of Hodgdon powder shows up.

Every serious handloader I know has been buying as much powder as possible whenever it shows up anywhere. Prior to Obama's reelection, most started looking for powder when their started getting low, because they assumed they could always buy more--maybe not today, but within a couple weeks or a couple months.

Now every serious reloader (and even some that weren't so serious) is buying as much powder as they can whenever they find it. Last summer one of the local stores got in a big batch of jugs of Hodgdon Extremes. They were gone in a few days, for exactly that reason. The same amount of powder used to last the store 6-8 months. That is happening all over the country, whether at retail stores or places like Midway.

Every time somebody on the Campfire finds powder in a store or on an Internet site they post where to buy it. And then everybody does, and it's gone, sometimes within hours, instead of the supply lasting weeks or months.

So the store or distributor orders more, when they just sold what would normally be several months worth of powder, but the powder company doesn't have any more, and won't for several months--and when they do, it has to be divvied up among more orders for even more powder, so nobody gets all they ordered, and some don't get any until the next batch shows up.

When customers complain about the lack of powder the store or distributor blames the powder company. It's that simple.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
I'd love to look in the mirror and see that I'm part of the problem, but I haven't bought powder in several years. I figured the nonsense would run it's course in time and I should have enough to tide me over. Now I find myself in the position where not only can I not find the powder I ran out of anywhere, Bullseye, I can't find a single pound of any handgun powder.

As to the assertion that some people are buying more powder than they can possibly use, perhaps, but if you've seen powder availability dry up for a period of years, you're likely to buy a few years supply vs. a pound or two at a time.

I do know that if I happen to check powder valleys website on the day they show they've received a shipment of Alliant Handgun powders, I'll be ordering 48 pounds of powder.

Maybe you consider that hoarding, I consider it prudent to keep myself out of the situation of guns with now powder to feed em.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
No, I wouldn't blame you at all, and in fact I finally started doing the same thing in the past six months or so, because often even the powder companies didn't have any of some powders--especially handgun powders.

That still doesn't change the fact that the problem is primarily due to far more demand than normal. I started buying some kinds of powder wherever I could, because so many other shooters continued to, for so long, that I had no choice. But I have had to plainly state in some magazine articles that XYZ powder wasnt tried because none was available.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
On the up side I have more primers on hand than I've ever had and Mrs. Claus took a not so subtle hint and got me a Dillon 550. So I figure by the time handgun powders become available I'll have my new loading bench all set up and better organized than I'd ever normally achieve and should have a cast a large pile of handgun bullets.

Either that or I guess I'll have to do more rifle shooting in the near time as I did stock up on H-335 and RL15 after the 2008 election.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,796
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,796
Great points Mule Deer. When the rush hit at its worst I swore I felt tectonic shifts when all that lead and powder were shifting back and forth across the country. Amazing we're able to get what we can considering the numbers.

Hate to see what would happen if there was a national run on toilet paper. With hard copy newspapers disappearing across the country it'd be a bit awkward wiping your a$$ with a computer screen.


“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell

"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
_Eileen Clarke


"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience."
- Alexander Hamilton


Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 388
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 388
MD - thank you for your insight into all of this. I have caught myself doing exactly as you said - buying powder and primers when I see them, even if I don't really "need" them.

I looked in my cabinet the other day, and I have probably way too much powder and primers for one person (at least my homeowners insurance would think so), so I'll probably slow down the purchases for a while.

I was late to the 22LR hoarding, so I'm not too guilty there.

Now I believe we are seeing another type of shortage - brass. It's hard to find brass for some of the less popular cartridges (257 Bob, 35 Rem, etc.) no doubt to the manufacturers turning out all they can of the popular stuff (223, 270, 30/06, etc.). I understand these "oddball" cartridges are usually seasonal runs, and these runs have been delayed with the production of more mainstream cartridges.

On the upside of all this - I see a lot more people out at the shooting ranges, enjoying our shooting sports, so that can't be a bad thing!

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
No, it's not!

One of the reasons for the brass shortage, aside from companies mostly making more popular cases, is a lot is being used for factory ammo. Believe it or not, most shooters don't handload, and ammo manufacturers need to fill their needs too. Plus, if a handloader really needs brass, he can always buy some factory ammo. It's not what we're used to doing, but if we really need the brass....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,067
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,067

John, I understand your point about semi-panic buying being among the reasons you mention for causing the shortages, but you have to admit, or at least I think there is at least a mustard seed worth of rational reason for this.

Given the [/i]general[i]direction of anti-gun liberal-think, this administration, and the general mental climate of popular culture, the ever proliferating of rules, regulations, and laws, it's a natural reaction. And not a completely irrational one.

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
T
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
T
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
I agree with Mule Deer. The shortage has been caused by us. And I, for one, am part of the problem. I tried not to be, but when I had to go without certain components for a while, I stocked up the next time it was possible.

The cycle is feeding on itself now.


------------------------------

The APE

"But resist we much...we must...and we will much...about...that...be committed." - the "Reverend" Al Sharpton
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
George,

To a certain extent I agree with you, and the problem was exacerbated not long after Obama's reelection by the school shooting, which stirred up the entire anti-gun community, and really cleaned out a lot of gun stores.

But by the next summer the threat of new federal anti-gun legislation had died, thanks to the Republican-controlled house. A few laws were passed in ultra-liberal states, but the big threat was gone.

Unfortunately, by that time some people had figured out how to profit from the .22 ammo shortage, something that's apparently continuing. This fed into our anxieties about loading components, and as TheBlueMountainApe pointed out, the panic buying started to feed on itself.

Every previous such panic, like the one during the Clinton years fueled by the "assault rifle ban," and then Obama's first election, started to ease up within a year. I suspect this one's been going on longer both because so many shooters thought there was no way Obama would get reelected, and because of cell phones and the Internet. Nowadays, every time some .22 ammo or hard-to-find powder or bullets appear anywhere, there's a feeding frenzy and they're gone. That wasn't happening nearly as much during the previous two panics. So this one's at least partially information-driven.

It's interesting how many people post here (and no doubt on other sites) when stuff appears in stores or on websites. Apparently they think they're doing everybody a favor, but it feeds the buying frenzy, and thus prolongs the shortages.

I even know of one old sporting goods store here in Montana, where I did most of my component shopping when living in that area 25 years ago, that got out of the reloading business. The owner simply grew tired of shooters hounding him about not finding stuff on the shelves--and then buying it all in a day or two when it did appear. So he said screw it and sold what was left to another store.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,067
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,067
John, I witnessed what you referred to myself here in our local Walmart. After two years of unsuccessfully walking in to buy 22's when convenient for me, I finally went to the store assistant manager for the scoop.

Apparently there was a group of guys who knew the delivery truck schedules and one of these guys would show up at 7:30 AM or so right after the truck arrival and buy his allowed allotment (two bricks); next, he would text or call his buddies and they would buy out 3-5k worth of .22 ammo by 8:30 or nine that morning.

Last edited by George_De_Vries_3rd; 01/21/15.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,618
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,618
Hate to admit but I too recently bought some Unique just because I could. Only one jug and I left several, but when i saw they had it, it went home. As soon as 22 becomes available and reasonable I wont leave wally's without a brick.


Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 388
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 388
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
No, it's not!

One of the reasons for the brass shortage, aside from companies mostly making more popular cases, is a lot is being used for factory ammo. Believe it or not, most shooters don't handload, and ammo manufacturers need to fill their needs too. Plus, if a handloader really needs brass, he can always buy some factory ammo. It's not what we're used to doing, but if we really need the brass....


MD - yes, completely understand about the factory ammo, however, anyone seen any 257 Roberts or 35 Remington ammo lately? I see quite a bit of other rounds (6.5x55, 7x57, 280 etc.) but I haven't seen any 257 factory ammo in quite a while. I'm sure the factories are doing all they can just keep up with the requests for the more popular stuff (243, 270, 30/06, etc.), same as components - once the rush ever stops on everything, maybe they will have a chance to produce other, less popular rounds.

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
I think the industry missed the boat on the effect of Concealed Carry laws that swept the nation.

There are a lot more shooters now and the industry just wasn't prepared to handle the demand.


Islam is a terrorist organization.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,054
C
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,054
I'm beginning to regret some of my own purchases as these new and presumably improved powders come on the market.

I expect to find it hard to use up what I have and I'm already open to swapping off some of what I have locally as the shortage eases up. FREX I've got some BallC(2) and 748 I'll probably never open but use a newer cleaner burning less temperature sensitive powder instead

I didn't buy vast quantities but I did buy enough to spread the hazmat charges - typically an 8 pound jug and an additional 2 of the one pound bottles to make the vendor's limit for a given powder.

I bought some powders that very much overlap each other in their applications - first I stocked up on H4895 because it would work with many of my rifles then I bought some Reloader 15 because I could and it might or might not do better in a 9.3x62 and so it goes with Varget and Tac and the rest of the Ramshot line because it's there. I suspect Accurate 2700/H414/760 which I bought because Swifty said it was good for the Swift would do for most of the same applications. I suspect I'll notice differences between the powders in my use and equally that the differences I notice won't be real in the sense that on another day with a different rifle results would be different.

But I suspect a large part of the impact on me and my own binge buying is indeed the result of a flattening in the distribution system. Time was I bought powder in small quantities at my friendly local gun shop where the owner knew me and I knew the owner and instead of stocking up I could make do with what they had If no Bullseye I could wait a little while or make do with 230 later with 231 or use the 452 I had in bulk for AA shotgun hulls. When the crisis hit my local gun shop was mostly gone and certainly was at the end of the line for shipments - properly so if the supply was based on the size of last year's orders/sales - compared to the big boxes and online sources. So to buy anything at all I had to buy more to cover the HAZMAT and to be in line to buy anything at all. My LGS might once have put aside some .22 rim fire for regulars WalMart won't.

Bottom line I expect to be spreading some of my own current stocks around the neighborhood - increasing the local supply of traditional powders - to make room for some of the new and presumably improved powders - so I expect a more selective rush to buy and a shortage of the newish powders - and I will buy jugs instead of pounds - the more things change the more things can stay the same.


Joined: May 2014
Posts: 228
N
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
N
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
George,

To a certain extent I agree with you, and the problem was exacerbated not long after Obama's reelection by the school shooting, which stirred up the entire anti-gun community, and really cleaned out a lot of gun stores.

But by the next summer the threat of new federal anti-gun legislation had died, thanks to the Republican-controlled house. A few laws were passed in ultra-liberal states, but the big threat was gone.

Unfortunately, by that time some people had figured out how to profit from the .22 ammo shortage, something that's apparently continuing. This fed into our anxieties about loading components, and as TheBlueMountainApe pointed out, the panic buying started to feed on itself.

Every previous such panic, like the one during the Clinton years fueled by the "assault rifle ban," and then Obama's first election, started to ease up within a year. I suspect this one's been going on longer both because so many shooters thought there was no way Obama would get reelected, and because of cell phones and the Internet. Nowadays, every time some .22 ammo or hard-to-find powder or bullets appear anywhere, there's a feeding frenzy and they're gone. That wasn't happening nearly as much during the previous two panics. So this one's at least partially information-driven.

It's interesting how many people post here (and no doubt on other sites) when stuff appears in stores or on websites. Apparently they think they're doing everybody a favor, but it feeds the buying frenzy, and thus prolongs the shortages.

I even know of one old sporting goods store here in Montana, where I did most of my component shopping when living in that area 25 years ago, that got out of the reloading business. The owner simply grew tired of shooters hounding him about not finding stuff on the shelves--and then buying it all in a day or two when it did appear. So he said screw it and sold what was left to another store.


I agree with all of that and I feel there is an additional reason for the continual frenzy. We all know the hatred that the Obummer team has for the 2nd Amendment & the American way/Constitution & many fear Executive orders on lead, Powder/explosives, firearms in general, at least the mere possibility of such an attempt keeps all of this alive.


You will not make peace with the Blue Coats, you are free to go
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Yep, especially when Obama is so fond of executive orders. He hasn't been able to get any major anti-gun laws passed, but he can sure create hassles in other ways.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,725
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,725
Originally Posted by Mule Deer

...Unfortunately, by that time some people had figured out how to profit from the .22 ammo shortage...

...because of cell phones and the Internet. Nowadays, every time some .22 ammo or hard-to-find powder or bullets appear anywhere, there's a feeding frenzy and they're gone. That wasn't happening nearly as much during the previous two panics. So this one's at least partially information-driven.

It's interesting how many people post here (and no doubt on other sites) when stuff appears in stores or on websites. Apparently they think they're doing everybody a favor, but it feeds the buying frenzy, and thus prolongs the shortages...


All excellent points.


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)

Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
I remember just a few years back when I would go down to the LGS and buy just a little smidgen of powder in a plastic container, say enough to load 20 rounds of some oddball loading I wanted to try. He would have everything in stock and would sell as little or as much as I wanted straight out of the jug.

Now, there's none there, and he will only sell in full bottles/jugs. No more experimenting for me.

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,145
C
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
C
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,145
Originally Posted by Mule Deer

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.


My LGS has a bunch of all the new Enduron powders on the shelf now. They're priced at $32 a pound instead of the $27 a pound they get for everything else. I'm just wondering if there's anything about these powders that warrants the extra $5 a pound. The Hodgdon extreme series is already pretty temperature stable and the rifles I shoot the most have custom barrels that hardly copper foul anyway so the anti-fouling stuff is mostly moot for my purposes.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Your LGS appears to be hiking the price. I just had some shipped to me from an Internet site and paid less per pound even with the hazmat fee and shipping.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,288
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,288
I read your article in "Handloader" and found it very interesting. I am a smart guy, but didn't know all that about powders. It sounds like the new powders are very good in temperature variations and bore cleaning capabilities.

The only problem I see, is that I have a ton of H-335 and other powders that blow up guns and I don't see myself running out soon. I guess I will have to borrow some of the new stuff from you when I need it.

Thanks John...


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
I'll be happy to give you 2-3 ounces of any of the new powders anytime you can catch me at home!

I used up all my H335 over a dozen years ago, not too long after TAC appeared. Did buy a pound a couple years ago, just so I could include it in magazine articles for the shooters who still have a bunch on hand.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
N
NTG Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
N
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,618
Am I'm the only "wannabe" neighbor of John's?

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,288
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,288
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I'll be happy to give you 2-3 ounces of any of the new powders anytime you can catch me at home!

I used up all my H335 over a dozen years ago, not too long after TAC appeared. Did buy a pound a couple years ago, just so I could include it in magazine articles for the shooters who still have a bunch on hand.


I'm afraid, I've got more H-335 than you have TAC...


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,420
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,420
Keep using that 335 and you will be shrapnel....

But the way things are going, you might get through that 335 before TAC in an eight pounder ever materializes at the retail level.

I can't get excited about new powders when I haven't seen any H-4895 anywhere for over three years.


Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,145
C
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
C
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,145
Originally Posted by Dave_Skinner

I can't get excited about new powders when I haven't seen any H-4895 anywhere for over three years.


Oh man, there were 8 lb. jugs of H-4895 stacked about 5 deep at the LGS a couple of days ago.

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Originally Posted by shrapnel
.... I have a ton of H-335 and other powders that blow up guns and I don't see myself running out soon. I guess I will have to borrow some of the new stuff from you when I need it.

Thanks John...

In before anyone else says "Just send all that DANGEROUS H-335 to me for proper disposal". laugh


Islam is a terrorist organization.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
96 members (257robertsimp, 99Ozarks, 10gaugemag, 16penny, 17 invisible), 1,661 guests, and 667 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,727
Posts18,400,741
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.119s Queries: 14 (0.006s) Memory: 1.4523 MB (Peak: 2.2159 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 07:55:33 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS