Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles .30-30 vs big bore lever rounds

I'm curious to hear from those who have significant experience (however you see it) with both the .30-30 and big bore lever rounds like the .444 or the .45/70.

I know that stereotypical small bore diehards will say shot placement is all that matters and big bore fans might say something like ".30 cal may expand but .45 won't shrink."

As for my own experience, I've taken deer, black bear and hogs with .270 Winchester, .30-06, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H and .45 Colt (carbine). I really haven't seen much difference between them in terms of the effective ability to put an animal down in short order. I've owned a couple .45/70 rifles and I currently own my Dad's .30-30 but I've never taken game with either.

For those with actual experience, unlike me, do you actually find the big bore more effective in producing quick kills or do you simply like it better? Or did you try both and not see what the big deal is about the big bore? No real difference either way?

I will be doing my spring bear hunting with my .30-30 either way this year and I'm sure it will work fine. At times I get a craving for a .45/70 but I'm not sure I will actually use it unless there is a tangible benefit.

I like the .375 Big Bore 94. My Marlin 45-70 is too danged heavy to carry, and kicks like a mule.
That being said, there's probably been more game killed with a 30-30 than all other cartridges combined. Not a thing wrong with it. Only deer rifle my GrandDad ever owned.

I've found the .45-70 and .450 Marlin to be significantly more effective than the .30-30 for Deer but also Moose.

My Marlin .30-30 has never taken any game but my Marlins in .375 Winchester and .45-70 have. A buck antelope shot at 167 yards with the .375/220g Hornady FP took a death leap and collapsed. The bullet passed through the rib cage, something that is not particularly difficult on any antelope.


The .45-70 has taken a mulie buck at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards. Both were taken with 350g North Fork bullets. The buck was quartering away and the bullet hit behind the ribs, angling for an exit in front of the far shoulder. The buck made a 360 degree turn and started up the hill before collapsing. There was 6" of fresh snow on the ground and the blood trail, short as it was, looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a bucket. The bull was hit broadside and low, with the bullet passing through the left front leg and ribs on both sides. The leg bone and near rib had sections that can best be described as 'obliterated' while the far rib was merely 'shattered'. The bull remained standing but toppled over before I could get a second shot off. That bullet was recovered from under the far side hide. Would a .30-30 have killed the bull? Probably. Would it have done as much damage. Not likely, but it would be easier on the shoulder...

Most of my experience is with deer, and I've found that the 30/30 kills have much shorter blood trails with similar shot placement.

I love heavy bullets in the .444 and 45/70, but I had to switch to lighter ones in those cartridges ( 265/270 in .444 and 300's in the 45/70 ) to shorten the trail ups.

When I first started using the big bores I was expecting dramatic results, but on deer, not too much difference. I'm sure it's a different ball game with the truly big animals.

A buddy of mine wears the whitetails out with his .444 Marlin and it does seem to do more damage than my .30-30 does. On the other hand, my .30-30 carries better and puts them down pretty darn good. You are lucky to have both to hunt with.

I've not been able to tell a lot of difference.

I've noticed more difference from where the bullet hit than from the headstamp, and to a degree, what type of bullet. The 150 grain .308 caliber Hornady SST was the worst bullet I've ever used. It would knock big shallow chunks out of a deer at close range.

I killed a couple of deer year before last with the .45-70, one each last year with a .243, .30-30, and a .44 mag rifle.

I lunged each one and it ran.

I've shot them in the shoulders with a variety of cartridges, and they typically fell, and right there.

Where I have noticed a difference is in the .44 mag and .45-70 with expanding vs LBT bullets. My particular kills with the expanding bullets have resulted in shorter runs, and a more noticeable reaction to the shot. I hesitate to state outright that is what will happen, but it has been my experience.

Shoulder shots are a bang/flop with less meat damage with the LBTs.

Now, where the .45-70 will surpass the .30-30 is breaking big bones in big animals with big bullets.

I have only killed deer and black bear with lever guns. I own 4 30-30s, 308, 356, 35 Rem, 348, 444, and 45-70.

They all work. BUT, IMO every one of said cartridges is more effective than the 30-30 by a noticeable margin. They just hit harder, and you can not only see it at the shot, but at the damage done on the carcass as well. Dead is dead. But bigger is bigger. On larger game it would make more of a difference.....

30-30 has been the one chambering I have never grown to love. My biggest complaint: despite good hits, the deer were unfazed. Now mind you, I've had this happen with the 35 Whelen as well, but not as often as with the 30-30.

Of all of them, I prefer the 30-06 for distances over a 100 yards and a 308 WIN downloaded to 300 Savage levels for short range work.

Velocity impresses deer mightily. I'd take a 22 slinging X bullets at 3400fps over a 30/06 throwing 180's any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

To the question, when it comes to deer I'd say I've not seen any noticeable difference, which is pretty accurate. I'd also say I likely ain't seen enough examples.

Although I have a Savage 340 in 30.30 that shoots the Lever Revolution ammo into little clusters, I never liked it for deer. About every season one of my nephews will use it on a doe and she will usually run a couple hundred yards after being hit through the lungs. We have yet to lose one, but we have had to work hard to find a couple of them. Not the best choice IMHO.

A Ruger number 1 in 45.70 with 325 grain Hornady flex tips at 2200 fps works much better.

I've gotten into levers he last few years due to good deals coming my way so I have been experimenting...

I never found my 4570 great on deer for the recoil penalty you pay. 35 rem does a good job on deer!
trying 3030 this year to get a feel for what levers to keep in my collection.

For the last 120 years, generations of hunters have answered your question by buying 30-30s. Whether any of us agree with their decisions or not, that is a helluva "sample size".

Also never had a 30-30. Don't know why. Only lever guns I've used on deer have been 250-3000, 308 WIN and 358 WIN. Both quick kills. I've seen many black bear dead with holes from 35 REM, 45-70 and 450 Marlin. 450 Marlin leaves quite an impressive exit. Personally for deer I like may SAV 99 308 WIN and for bear my bolt 338-06.

Ive used a number of them and I gotta say if the main quarry is deer org black bear, a .30-30 is just about ideal. The .375s and .38-55s are not to be despised though

That's been my experience as well. I generally try for a CNS when hunting pigs and with that shot it makes zero difference. If, however, for some reason I have to shoot into the shoulders, my .444 will shatter bones. This is especially important if the pig happens to be a big boar with a shield one-half to one inch thick. The .444 has no problem punching through that and smashing shoulders. Other than that, I don't see much difference between the two in performance. At least not on pigs.

RevMike, my experience with the .444 is that, with the factory loadings and jacketed bullets, the .444 is impressive on big game.

With 300 grain+ LBTs, it's a monster if big bones and penetration are on the menu.

I have killed deer with a lot of cartridges mostly with those somewhere between .243 and .338-06, but as the luck of the draw sometimes goes, I never blooded my .45-70.

Early on, I was unhappy with the .243 and .270, so I chose to use a .30-06 and later had the .338-06 put together. Then, I discovered that it is not necessarily the caliber but bullet performance for all.

Nosler Partitions fixed the .243 and .270. (I hear good reports on other bullets such as TSX, Accubonds and others of similar construction. I have not strayed far from the NP). Likewise, I discovered that 250 Woodleighs are not Ideal coyote medicine from the .338-06. They work like a solid on small animals.

Shoot a deer through the heart-lung with most any of them and they run until they run out of oxygen/blood. .243, 30-30, or .338-06. Hit them in the CNS and they are DRT. Break a shoulder with any and they generally stop, but require a finishing round. One exception to all this, and an example or ONE! I once had an early Weatherby 7mm, built on his FN Mauser action, that had a full 6/10" of freebore. I kept putting old H4831 into the case with long seated 160s until I was a full five grains over book without any sign of pressure. I went hunting. A decent buck passed by scenting for a doe at about 150 yards. I shot him perfectly behind the shoulder and he nose dived. Maybe there is something to shock, if the bullet is fast enough.

One other observation, I used a lot of 210 NP in the .338-06, but honestly the 200 Speer did well also. I suspect that at some point weight and mass of the heavier calibers negate the need for premium bullets. My new Medium bore is a 9.3x62. Working on this theory, I'm starting off with the Speer 270. I expect them to work just fine. Another thing, the bigger bullets seem to allow a little room for error, but not enough to get careless. Shot placement is still king.
YMMV,

jack

I really like lever actions, and I'm not fixated on power <I have a 257 Roberts BLR and a marlin 44 mag that both work really well on deer. Ive only used the 30/30 on a few deer and while it got the job done it was not impressive,I had the 3 deer I used it on before I gave it to my older son all run a short distance with good lung/heart area hits.
I found the I got more consistent results and a bit more obvious impact with my 44 marlin loaded with a 310 grain lee bullet over 21 grains of H110.
now Ive used a 45/70 on ELK and my hunting partner had killed at least 5 now with his marlin 45/70, and we have zero complaints

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
I found this bullet to be especially accurate in my marlin 45/70 over 45 grains oF IMR 4198, Im not sure what velocity youll get in your rifle but cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin,well lubed its accurate,and it shoots thru deer,hogs and elk real well with expected results..very dead game
I don,t think you can say a 30/30 is less deadly,than a 45/70 if you place the shot well, but a 45/70 seems too get the games full undivided,attention on bullet impact a good deal better and more often.
the difference was impressive enough that when I sold my 45/70 and went looking for a replacement heavy timber elk rifle in a lever action,I bought a 450 marlin BLR and have found it to be exceptionally accurate

BTW 50 grains of IMR 3031, and a federal 215 primer, under a remington 405 grain soft point in that 450 marlin BLR has proven to be my most accurate load, easily 1" 3 shot groups, at 100 yards off the bench

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...05-grain-soft-point?cm_vc=ProductFinding

I've killed multiples with both rounds. The 30-30 kicks a whole lot less, but the 45-70 can be loaded down significantly and still make a big hole. Try 11gr of Unique under a 400-405gr cast bullet with NO FILLER for about 1000 fps. My kids can shoot that load all day long, and would if I let them.

I have not seen a lot of difference between the 30-30, 35, 44 and 45-70 on smallish Southern deer at woods ranges. All have gone down pretty quickly if hit properly. I have noticed that a hard 45-70 bullet at low/medium velocity damages less meat than the others mentioned with expanding bullets.

As lever guns go, I have killed deer with the 30-30, .348, & 405. The .405 definitely makes a bigger hole and can just about pass through a deer from any angle; but as an earlier poster said " dead is dead".

Deer are easy to kill and the 30-30 does it quite effectively with less wasted meat (and is easier to carry). It is always interesting to use different rifles and cartridges, but they are not necessary.

405wcf

I've used the .30-30 as well as the .450 Marlin on a fair number of critters. I killed a big Shiras bull with the .450.

I think the big bores make critters show more signs of a hit than the .30-30, but it didn't kill them much faster. The .450 does hit with AUTHORITY...on both ends.

Paint, my experience with the lever guns mimicked yours to a tee.

I'm supposing that as "Steelhead" stated, deer size critters are much impressed with velocity and not the lack thereof.

I ended up getting rid of a 45/70 and a 444. As hard as my shoulder was pounded at the range I expected impressive results in the field. Never did see impressive field results and I stuck with it for about 13 years.

Shod

My .450 killed my Moose significantly quicker than my .30-30 did. And my .450 Bull was bigger too. It also was was a much quicker kill than the Cow Moose I took with my .30-06.

A common misconception is that the 45-70 was used as a buffalo hunting gun that led to the demise of the herds. Fact is that almost all of the buffalo were dead a decade before the 45-70 was invented in 1873. While buffalo hunters took a lot, an extended drought in the 1850's and 1860's took most. Laws were passed in 1874 banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left.

It was developed as a military round and used during the indian wars giving slightly more power and range than the 45 colt revolvers. It was considered a borderline hunting cartridge in it's day and not used often. The 30-30 when invented was considered an improvement. By the 1890's it was all but dead. It lay dormant and almost unused until revived by Marlin along with some colorful advertising in the early 1970's.

With the fairly recent development of much hotter loads it has become a legitimate big game round. But any colorful history as a hunting round is mostly fiction. I'd not be surprised if more game had been killed with 45-70 in the 21st century than in the 19th and 20th centuries combined.

I owned one from 1976 up until 4-5 years ago when I finally sold it. For deer/black bear size game I'd just as soon use a 30-30. If you start talking about bigger bear, moose, elk, etc., I have no doubt it is a little better if the hotter loads are used. Probably no better, maybe less effective, if the old black powder equivalent loads are used.

But recoil is impressive with those loads, exceeding 375 mag recoil. I've seen no proof that it is any better killer of the big stuff than a heavy loaded 30-06 with far less recoil. If I'm getting 375 mag recoil, I'd rather have a 375. That is why I no longer own a 45-70.

The 30-30, in the U.S. anyway, is the original high velocity small bore smokeless round. In it's day, it was considered a very flat shooter and magic on all kinds of animals.

Of course, it has been surpassed by many rounds in the velocity arena, but it remains a very effective round on deer out to 200 yards or a little better. I've used it a whole lot and I can't really tell much difference in the way it kills verses just about anything you want to name. Like anything else, there have been some spectacular kills and some inexplicable ones that resulting in trailing game.

As for your original question, well that was one that was answered in the 1890s when the 30-30 was marketed as and was generally seen as by most knowledgeable hunters as a significant improvement over the bigger bores with lower velocities.

I view it as for game under 400-500 lbs. all of them are more than sufficient i.e. you are not going to notice a big difference in results and if you do it will be most likely shot placement followed by bullet integrity. I can't buy the old I have experienced multiple deer run off with good hits story with either the 30-30 or the 45-70.

I myself have lost one deer in my hunting career and it was a doe hit with a cast 405 gr slug out of a 45-70. There was a lot of blood and a good trail and we gave her several hours to die but after jumping her 3 times while following her up she crossed onto a farm where we couldn't go. Cant be sure but I chalk this one up to a pulled shot certainly not a clean shot thru the chest area.

As to lever action rounds, I've killed with 30-30, 35, 375, 444 and 45-70 heavy .
the 30-30 kills as fast as the 35, the 375 444 and 45-70 kill surely but rarely buckle their knees.
I've never seen death come so quickly as with a .257 weatherby with a 117 round nose. Even at 300 yards.
So if your hunting thick...45-70 with a 405 cast. Open...er areas, 30-30 with a 150 Hornady.

Ive shot several deer with the 30-30,it has always worked.
I have a 450 marlin guidegun I bought to go after moose.it carries pretty well,when I do carry it. recoil is way less than a 12 guage duck gun
I haven't used it on deer yet,but have loaded the 300 gr tsx flatnose,and have to believe it would really have a lot of shock,with a 1/4" hollow point.
perhaps the big bore shooters use too heavy weight bullets for deer?

here is a 300 tsx,recovered from a dirt bank at 170yards.
thats a quarter ,included for scale.

by using light bullets your essentially turning them into the 'express rifles' of 125 or so years ago and they had a hell of a reputation for killing light skin game at short ranges....when you see rounds like 45-90 Express or 50-95 Express it means they intended to use a light weight bullet and were supposed to be used for things like deer and sometimes the big cats due to the impressive shock value not for heavy game though they were big bores......and this was with black powder velocities....cant imagine the higher smokeless velocities make them any worse

I've had deer run over 100yds in South Texas after being hit with a 300 win mag and deer seize up and crumple at the same range from a 243. The one deer I've killed with my Marlin Guide Gun also ran 100yds, but that was primarily due to a lung shot with a RNFP hardcast bullet.

I've not shot anything with my 30-30 yet, but the one lever gun I've used the most and noticed the most consistent freight-train smack down performance is the lever gun in 44mag. It is slow enough that it doesn't just rip through, but heavy and powerful enough that it fully penetrates...even both shoulders on a big boar hog.

I think there is an element of bullet type, velocity, and animal size where the fabled "knockdown power" becomes most apparent.

I've killed a dozen or so deer with a 30-30 win 94,,, it works well, soft point 170 grain sierra bullets seem to work the best for me handloading but Winchester 150 grain power points work well on deer as well.

The 30-30 doesn't do the damage that a larger or faster bullet does but put one in the lungs and you will have a dead deer.

My winchester 94 in 32 special has dropped its fair share of moose and whitetails.
I got a Stevens lever in 35 remington model 435 that has been good to me on black bear.
My Winchester 86 in 45-70 kicks like a mule in comparison and has not killed them any deader. Just my arms from carrying the thing.

Doc

I agree with using the 170 grain Sierra FN. In my single shot Topper H&R's I use a max load of LE powder in Win cases with WLR primers @2300fps(data is on the Hodgdon website)and this loading has produced two DRT deer so far. I highly recommend this bullet and load.

I've killed deer with a bunch of different calibers and they've all worked well.

But, I killed my first deer with a .30-30 and he was DRT. I think I'll always have a soft spot for the caliber and will always hunt with it from time to time. I suppose that in the area I hunt the .30-30 is really all I'd ever need.

150 grain SP's have never let me down.