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I am considering having one put together. I own a 25/06 and 30/06 and my pea brain is telling me this will be the best of both worlds, could someone please enlighten me with some real world experience and numbers.
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I vote do because I have hunted with one for almost 20 years. I love it and it is my go to rifle for everything I hunt. I shoot other calibers like the 257 Roberts and 30.06 but I like my 280 AI for hunting. What I like about the 280 AI: very accurate, manageable recoil, plenty of range for everything I hunt, easy to reload for, brass life is good and brass is easy to fire-form from 280 brass, great bullet selection in 7mm. It may not be perfect but it's pretty dang close. You won't be disappointed if you build one. If you don't reload Nosler offers a couple of good factory loads but you really need to load your ammo to reach its full potential.
.280 AI Fan
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Ackleyman pretty much summed it up !!
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What twist of barrel and what is more cost effective a stiller predator action or a blueprinted 700?
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Do it if you have not done one before. This AI stuff is just a hobby and fun for awhile.
Wait until after this hunting season. It will shorten the winter.
Other similar cartridges will do about the same.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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What twist of barrel and what is more cost effective a stiller predator action or a blueprinted 700? Most cost effective is a Montana or a Nosler. Both can be had for the cost of a Stiller or blueprinted 700 action, and both are good rifles and ready to go. But then so is a 7-08 Montana for most things I can think of doing. The 280 AI doesn't really do any more than the 30-06, but it does it with greater efficiency. The 30-06 will wake up when loaded up to full power behind a Scenar or 208 Amax. These days hard decisions mostly revolve around glass.
It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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I really like mine, dose all I ask of it. Its my go to big game rig. Actions, depends on if you have a 700 action or not. I think it would be pretty close if you had to buy new.
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I'd go 1-9 twist and for cost, a "blueprinted" 700. Most gunsmiths perform most of the necessary "blueprinting" before they screw on your new barrel. IMO, anything beyond, squaring the action face, bolt face, truing up the bolt lugs ( or just lapping them in if there not to outta whack) and cleaning up the action threads is really a waste of money on a hunting rifle. Remember when you buy a custom action they don't come with a trigger, magazine follower, magazine spring or bottom metal. Not sure how many customs come with a recoil lug either. Pretty easy to see that a Stiller Predator will cost you more than a grand by the time it's ready for it's barrel.
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Another yes vote, I've been very happy with mine and it loves 150 TTSX's and RL22.
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TopCat makes a good argument for a factory Montana or Nosler, but if you want to put one together, I agree with RDFinn. A "blueprinted" 700 action is probably the best way to go considering what you get at a reasonable cost. My rifle is built on a Win. 70 action but a Rem 700 is hard to beat for an accurate rifle. Mine is a 1-10 twist but nothing wrong with a 1-9 twist especially if you plan to shoot 160 grain bullets. Mine has a 23" barrel but I would probably go 24" if I built one today. Action and barrel length really comes down to personal preference.
.280 AI Fan
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My brother absolutely loves his M70 push feed rebarreled by E. R. Shaw. Fingernail size groups with 160gr Sierra boattails are the norm, and deer don't like it at all.
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I had exactly the same cartridges and did pick up the 280AI, especially for elk. Which to me means 160 plus grain bullets.
I have a Sako A7 25-06, and a Sako 85 30-06
Now I have a 280 AI and its more my first choice if I'm western hunting than anything else.
If I'm hunting thicker stuff where 300 is a long shot I just use my 260.
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I have a 280AI chambered/threaded Rock barrel,dies and some brass i picked up here in the classifieds.
I might be selling it as i'm building another 7wby,if anyone's interested in it let me know.
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I love mine! I have a stainless select shilen barrel mated to a Whitworth action trued and lugs lapped in.
I went with the saami spec chamber so I can use 280AI Nosler brass or fireform 280 brass if I choose.
The original wildcat chamber will have headspace issues if you try to use 280AI Nosler brass and therefore is only recommended to fire form.
There nothing special or magic about the 280AI however I enjoy playing around making loads for something different.
Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Have an RBros built AI. McM Hunters Edge, bedded, trued, Kampfeld fluted bolt, 24" #4 Broughton finished at .660, 1-9. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g364/nwoutdoors/IMG_0850.jpg) On a cold morning was around 2904 average, pretty close to advertised. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g364/nwoutdoors/280AItarget2.jpg) First load with the 150TTSX was 56.5 IMR4350 that went .307". The rifle is far better than I am and have messed up my share of groups. Would be easier with more than a fixed 6x, but I want to go on a few hunts before swapping the scope - if I ever do.
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Here's mine, built on a pre 64 M70 action, pac-nor fwt barrel and a mcm edge stock. ![[Linked Image]](http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p116/handwerk/IMG_0120_zps1aea6380.jpg)
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Just about a perfectly balanced cartridge. It will overlap the 25 and 30-06 a fair amount on both ends with 120-180 gr. bullets. Only reason not to build one is the other rifles may stay in the safe at least for awhile.
It for me is about the top end that I would want in an ultra light rifle. A Titanium Pierce action for the 280AI sure would be nice.
Mine is a truck gun throw down rifle on a Ruger action. Not worthy of a photo even if I knew how.
Handwerks rifle is just about perfection.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I like the 280.
120's at 3340 and 162's near 3k. They all get it done without much fuss.
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If I saw a rifle for sale that I liked but chambered in a odd cartridge like the 280 ai I would not buy it. One rifle guys experience with it: ![[Linked Image]](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/BenjoMT/IMGP2467.jpg) Link
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Head space isn't a difficult thing to understand. If you don't pay attention, It doesn't matter what you are loading.
Run false shoulders or seat into the lands while shooting the cases for the first time. 280 Lee Collet Neck Die after. My current brass has at least 4 or 5 firings and I haven't touched it with a body die.
I like the AI's. They're different and fun. If I just wanted to shoot chit, I'd sell everything, get a 223 and a 308, and be a boring kinda fella.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Like Boxer/Stick would say, "more is always more and less is always less......"
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I don't know about the 280 but on my 243 ai you can throw away your case trimming tool. fire form or case trim?? I think I would rather fill my cases with creme of wheat and fire form them for an a couple hours in my garage and forget about needing to trim them.
the question is if you set up your chamber for the nosler 280 ai brass, does this still have a crush fit with regular 280 brass?? I also noticed on noslers site they show a .311 loaded neck and on a plain 280 they show a .315 neck any idea on why there is a difference??
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The .280 Ackley is a must have for any big game hunter. I long ago lost count of the deer and elk I killed with mine.
Do it.
kd
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If I saw a rifle for sale that I liked but chambered in a odd cartridge like the 280 ai I would not buy it. One rifle guys experience with it: Link So one guy that doesn't understand how to set up his reloading die is a reason for everyone to avoid a cartridge?
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Do it if you have not done one before. This AI stuff is just a hobby and fun for awhile.
Wait until after this hunting season. It will shorten the winter.
Other similar cartridges will do about the same. +1 Nothing wrong with a standard 280.
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I ran a 280 Ackley for a while. Great cartridge. That being said I just finished a do all custom and went with the standard 280 remington.
I find the standard variety does everything the Ackley did, just a little slower but also with less fuss or cost.
There is nothing particularly magical about the Ackley. It won't kill anything deader than the 30-06 will. If you are a tinkerer then go for it. If not, don't. Just my opinion...
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I had two 280 Ackleys. If I did it again I would just go 280. It actually has more cool factor now because nobody likes it anymore. If you need more than a 280, then probably time to step up to 7mag.
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There is a .280 Mtn rifle in the classifieds for 625
Pretty sharp looking rifle, ge a great starting point
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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The 30-06 will wake up when loaded up to full power....
These days hard decisions mostly revolve around glass. Two very true statements.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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I wouldn't. It seems like a lot of work for little gain, unless you're just buying it as a factory Kimber/Nosler.
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How is that factory Nosler patriot rifle? Any real world experience?
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I have hunted with 280's since 2003. No doubt, it is my favorite non-magnum. I have always wanted a 280 AI but would not mess with it until Nosler made it a production cartridge. Soon I will have this one I have no elusions of SR71 velocity nor doing anything better than the standard 280 Remington. But, I do know it was Mr. Nosler's favorite round & I like being in that company.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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So what rifle looney needs a reason to do a particular caliber, or rifle? Go for it just because you can. Life is too short for "why", and not long enough for "because".
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If I saw a rifle for sale that I liked but chambered in a odd cartridge like the 280 ai I would not buy it. One rifle guys experience with it: Link Improper head space will do that with any cartridge.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Question on the 280 ai being safe or not safe in a M70 type Featherweight barrel contour?
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Question on the 280 ai being safe or not safe in a M70 type Featherweight barrel contour?
SUPER SAFE I have one and love it and shoot to 1000 yards ands it damn acurate, first 3 shots at 675 yards 2 inches on steel and dead center as the wind was very light. Go for it! Elmer
Last edited by elmerdeer; 10/24/14.
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Question on the 280 ai being safe or not safe in a M70 type Featherweight barrel contour?
That's not really a question.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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My first improved chamber came with a High Wall in 1963. Back then High Walls were in high demand and I found one in a local GS. It is a .219 Improved Zipper. The cartridge looks somewhat like the .225 Win. except for it's 30-30 size rim. ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/274x206q90/r/703/highwallf9bbc9916jg.jpg)
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My custom off a 700 at 7lbs scoped is quite likable. ![[Linked Image]](http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/BBsteel/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps84e16fcc.jpg)
NRA Life Member
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I like the 280, as a 270, would not mind owning a 6.5x55 AI  7/08 does most all I'd want, and a Rem Mag takes over from there in OEM. A proper built and ammo'd 280AI is a good one.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I had two 280 Ackleys. If I did it again I would just go 280. It actually has more cool factor now because nobody likes it anymore. If you need more than a 280, then probably time to step up to 7mag. Agreed. I have been trying to wrap my head around the 280 AI for over 30 years, ever since my old pal on here RinB had both the Ackley and RCBS version. He seemed unimpressed and so was l...since l was stomping 280 improved velocities with about any 7RM l loaded for. So l never blew the coin to bother with it. I hardly consider it an essential item for any active BG hunter. Other stuff works as well or better. The cartridge is a favorite of rifle nuts on here but in a fairly active lifetime of BG hunting l have yet to see a single one afield anywhere...but someone must be using it! The 280 AI is a "lesser included" in a standard 7 rem mag. I also get the same ballistics from my FF loads (low pressure) for the 7mm Mashburn in the same action and barrel length with greater reserves for heavier bullets. Those here will have to forgive me if the cartridge causes me to yawn.
Last edited by BobinNH; 10/25/14.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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There isn't a need for any one specific cartridge as a dozen others can do the same thing that it does. It is about a want.
6.5 Creed, 260, 6.5x284, 6.5-06, 270, 7-08, 7x57, 280, 280AI, 7RM, 7SAUM, 7WSM, 7whateverthefuck, 308, 30-06... and on... and on... and on...
They'll all kill deer and elk. Many will do the same thing as the other. Big deal. It isn't about well this doesn't do anything that does. It's about what you want for any reason. I like it because it's different. I don't have any issue with brass because Nosler supplies it. I can handload or shoot factory. I can get most of the performance of a 7RM with using less power and having less recoil and having an extra round in the box.
In all reality a deer probably won't know the difference between any of the calibers mentioned above given the same shot placement and bullet type. Shoot what's fun and what you like.
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I've been shooting my 280's since they were stamped express so you know how long that's been.  Sometimes good things should be left alone..this is a prime example IMO.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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The 280's are all fine cartridges, whether stamped AI or express.
If I had a LA, a standard bolt face, and a .284 tube, I'd take the 280 whatever. If it had a mag bolt face, I'd do the 7RM, Saum, Wsm, Wby, or MSM. Don't see any need to compare a .473 BF against a .532.
They all launch good bullets at meaningful velocity.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Have had a number of them over the years. Don's post was just a cheap shot--an idiot could produce the same results with any cartridge. They are idiots and brainfarts involved in handloading... Go with the SAAMI version, it is slightly different than the older version and Nosler brass works very well--been buying Nosler 280AI brass since it came out. 280AI Versions Buying Nosler brass and handloading the SAAMI is the easy way to get the most out of the 06 parent case. The Nosler manual's results are spot on for current rifle. I run a 24" and subtract 50fps to line up with Nosler's result. It outruns all similar SD bullets from other versions on the 06 parent case. The Gibbs is an exception, but it is a PITA to make, for me, and you have a short neck to boot. Recoil-wise, you can build a 280AI from a 1 to 1 1/2# lighter than a 7RM - 7WB. Have and shoot them--am fond of the 7WB in a weightier format. This elk season reminded me that there are good reasons to carry a lighter rifle--getting older is on that list. I basically shoot mine with 140s now and with today's bullets it is the single best bullet weight for the cartridge...for me. Have run them all including the 175 for a while in a long-throated rifle. To run a heavier bullet now, I go with the mag cases. For shooting longer & more comfortably, a 6.5... Am also very fond of a 280 on hand. Noted this past year after snagging 100 Nosler Long Range 150's that the long boat-tail (about 3x) sits deeply in the case. The AI version will recover case capacity given up to VLD type bullets. Throating longer will not help you with that particular bullet...:) If deciding to use a single rifle it would be the 280AI with 140-160s to cover game.
Defend the Constitution
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I had two 280 Ackleys. If I did it again I would just go 280. It actually has more cool factor now because nobody likes it anymore. If you need more than a 280, then probably time to step up to 7mag. Agreed. I have been trying to wrap my head around the 280 AI for over 30 years, ever since my old pal on here RinB had both the Ackley and RCBS version. He seemed unimpressed and so was l...since l was stomping 280 improved velocities with about any 7RM l loaded for. So l never blew the coin to bother with it. I hardly consider it an essential item for any active BG hunter. Other stuff works as well or better. The cartridge is a favorite of rifle nuts on here but in a fairly active lifetime of BG hunting l have yet to see a single one afield anywhere...but someone must be using it! The 280 AI is a "lesser included" in a standard 7 rem mag. I also get the same ballistics from my FF loads (low pressure) for the 7mm Mashburn in the same action and barrel length with greater reserves for heavier bullets. Those here will have to forgive me if the cartridge causes me to yawn. Bob, serious question here. Why do you harp on the fact that a 7mm Mag is better (faster) than the Ackley ? No schitt, it's faster. It uses more powder, has greater recoil and greater muzzle blast. Your (continued) argument is as valid as saying that a 30/06 is "better" than a 308, or a 300 WM is better than a 30/06. Of course the 280 Ackley isn't deit like, but the advantage of much less case trimming and a slight boost in velocity are worth it to some. A lighter barrel contour can be used with the Ackley as well, or at least every frickin one I've seen has anyway. Now if someone actually thinks that they can get 7mm Mag velocities (safely) with a 280 Ackley, I'll be happy to join in with you and tell them they're FOS.
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Come on America,
Athletes and actors are not heroes, only soldiers, airmen,marines and sailors get that respect�and let's add firemen and LEO's
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Picking a 280 Ackley over a standard 280 makes way more sense to me than picking a 7mm Mashburn over a 7mm Rem Mag as you can still shoot factory ammo in an Ackley. No one makes factory ammo for a Mashburn
Last edited by 338rcm; 10/25/14.
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The only (possible) argument I can see is if some has a standard 280 and they want to spend the money on re-chambering because they are wanting more velocity. The reality is you're probably only going to see less than a 100 fps gain and even at that, you're on the verge of hot rodding the Ackley. If a guy has a 280 and wants more velocity, than build a 7 mag. The guy who probably had the most influence on the 280 Ackley's popularity, at least in fairly recent times, was Kenny Jarrett. I called Kenny Jarrett many years ago and got a copy of an article he wrote for Precision Shooting. In the article, there were 5 loads he suggested, one for 140's using IMR-4350, and the load in my rifle was warm (hard bolt lift).
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I've hunted primarily with a standard .280 Mountain Rifle for twenty years and it's always done everything I've asked of it. I wouldn't re-chamber a 22-24" barrel for a 280AI but I would build one from scratch using a reasonable weight 26". I don't hump the mountains like I once did so a little longer/heavier barrel is not a bad thing. For me it's going to be a tossup between the 280AI and a 7LRM (or something close to it). Have an extra action available in each size. Not sure if I want to beat myself up burning the additional powder in a mag case.
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Another yes vote, I've been very happy with mine and it loves 150 TTSX's and RL22. What kind of velocity are you getting?
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It's a great cart on a .473 L/A..arguably the best you can do on that platform.
I've tried to trip my 280AI chambered Rock barrel in this very thread, if i dont i'll screw it onto an action and give it a fair shake.
Thinking 150 Scenar and 145 LRX combo wouldnt suck..
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It's a great cart on a .473 L/A..arguably the best you can do on that platform.
I've tried to trip my 280AI chambered Rock barrel in this very thread, if i dont i'll screw it onto an action and give it a fair shake.
Thinking 150 Scenar and 145 LRX combo wouldnt suck..
Agreed. David
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Just loaded up some rounds last night for a new 280AI. Had some fire-formed brass. FL resized them and used Rel 22 with 162 Gr. A-Maxes. Expect to get around 2,800 FPS out of the 23" barrel (per quickload). I did fill a case with H20 and weighed it just to make sure of capacity. Quickload had 74 grs water and I measured 72.5 grains. Easy fix. A few pics of mine ![[Linked Image]](http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r61/sbark1/9CD25705-2A20-4F08-8FAB-5CAC24E129CE.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r61/sbark1/BF9D5363-11D6-49DA-93DE-340A351D503A.jpg)
Last edited by 257heaven; 10/26/14.
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I'm heading to the range this AM with my 280AI. I put it together three years ago and I've never carried it hunting. Ran out of it's favorite bullet, the 150 Ballistic Tip and couldn't find anymore for months. Then a friend slid me a partial box so we are back in business. It's just a '77 vintage 700 action with a 23" Shilen #2 in a Mountain Rifle pattern Edge, a Rifle Basix trigger and and a 3.5-10 gunmetal grey Leupy. Pretty standard campfire stuff. My oldest has a near twin to it in a lefty 700. ![[Linked Image]](http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boltsonly/Rem%20700%20280%20Ackley%20Imp/Rem700custom280AckleyImp001_zpseefe81f6.jpg)
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Nice!
What's your load for the 150's?
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Nice!
What's your load for the 150's? 61 grs of Rel22
"after the bullet leaves the barrel it doesn't care what headstamp was on the case"
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16bore,
with the 62g of RL22 I'm getting 3050 fps.
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I ran my old RM w 160-162s at 2860 - would run 150 class in a 280/AI.
My 270s always worked great w 150 NBTs. Not much you can't do w any of them if the shooter does their part. I like KISS and would run a 280 for what it is or just buy a Rem Mag and shoot heavies.
It's all gack that's fun to debate. The RM loaded to the hilt is definitely less pleasant than a 280/AI. Never a bad thing.
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Don't speculate when you don't know, and don't second guess when you do.
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16bore,
with the 62g of RL22 I'm getting 3050 fps. What barrel length?
Don't speculate when you don't know, and don't second guess when you do.
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I get 2925 fps using IMR7828 with a 160 NPT out of a 1:8.5 twist 23" rock barrel. This is .5 grains UNDER Noslers max load.
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What kinda speeds are you fellas getting with ~120-140's? My understanding is anything under 150's in a 280AI make it more or less a funky looking 270.....
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Geez.
cooler looking whilst 50fps faster...that's book--hoping things don't go nostalgically anecdotal in this thread with that 270 mention...
24" here M-700 TI
63g MRP 3175 140NBT
64g MRP 3200+
last load is Nosler book max--BTW, p 349 of Nosler 7 has the heading "280 Remington Mag" rather than 280 Remington AI...:) One has to wonder if it was a maybe...
150s are good elk bullets, though
Defend the Constitution
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Yeah, for sure. Don't wanna go down that road. Nothing to see here. I try to talk myself outta building a 280AI about once a week.
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karma...nothing you can do but delay it with a 7x57 build on a small ring
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I get 2975 fps out of my 280AI with 160 grain AB's, and 60 grains of RL22.
nice !
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16bore, with 64g of RL 22 I see 3150 w/140 TTSX's
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Gotcha. Just fiddlin with figures......
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Agreed. I have been trying to wrap my head around the 280 AI for over 30 years....Those here will have to forgive me if the cartridge causes me to yawn. Yawns are acceptable. 280 AI will perform the same as a 280 at the least. So, in the long run, you ain't lost nothing except a few dollars.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Love that gunmetal Leupold!!
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Robert E. Lee
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I have had every strain of 280 Improved cartridges in bolts & single shots. The reason that I have an AI now is due to the desire for the rifle it is chambered in. I liked the rifle. So, I would have chosen it whether it was a 280 AI, Remington, Gibbs or JDJ.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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The 7mm JRS will run the arse off of all of em............ 
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JRS can't touch 7mmx577 TRex...
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I have one of those and you are right.
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My 24" .280 AI shoots the 140 TTSX at 3205fps from 63gr of R22. Groups are well under MOA a d brass is on its 5th firing with no trimming and tight primer pockets.
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My 24" .280 AI shoots the 140 TTSX at 3205fps from 63gr of R22. Groups are well under MOA a d brass is on its 5th firing with no trimming and tight primer pockets. That is 300fps more than any on my 7x57's would do and they performed great in the field. A little flatter trajectory and another 569FPE, that, is significant. John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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I am considering having one put together. I own a 25/06 and 30/06 and my pea brain is telling me this will be the best of both worlds, could someone please enlighten me with some real world experience and numbers. Having a rifle built just the way you want it is a fine idea. The cartridge it's chambered for is of lttle importance.
Last edited by Pappy348; 10/29/14.
What fresh Hell is this?
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I'm running the 168 ABLR 2970 fps in a 26 inch Brux 9 twist ...I get about 2930 fps with the 160 AB..
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I'm running the 168 ABLR 2970 fps in a 26 inch Brux 9 twist ...I get about 2930 fps with the 160 AB.. How much does that 26" barreled rifle weigh with what scope? For a rifle I carry the Featherweight size is ok and for 'magnums' with long barrels that I don't carry far then more weight is tolerable. I have magnums in heavier rifles which are optimum. Another optimum rifle is the Kimber Montana 7mm WSM which should run with a 280 ai shooting 168's. It's not easy to believe the pressures with the smaller 280 case are good as it's capacity is less than the WSM's. Mine weighs 7#, 4oz with it's 4-12 Leu.
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Kimber Model 8400 Montana 7mm WSM Caliber: Reference #: 2451311 Price: $1,099.99 Link Kimber Montana 7mm WSM
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IIRC that one has been gone for ages.
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Mine has a VX6 2x12..7lbs 7oz ..
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Just loaded up some rounds last night for a new 280AI. Had some fire-formed brass. FL resized them and used Rel 22 with 162 Gr. A-Maxes. Expect to get around 2,800 FPS out of the 23" barrel (per quickload). I did fill a case with H20 and weighed it just to make sure of capacity. Quickload had 74 grs water and I measured 72.5 grains. Easy fix. A few pics of mine Dibs, just in case you sell it!
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Who's shooting 162's in a Montana 280AI and how are they doing?
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Not a Montana but 162s fly great in mine as well. Look to IMR 7828 and RL 17 for accuracy and speed.
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I had two 280 Ackleys. If I did it again I would just go 280. It actually has more cool factor now because nobody likes it anymore. If you need more than a 280, then probably time to step up to 7mag. Agreed. I have been trying to wrap my head around the 280 AI for over 30 years, ever since my old pal on here RinB had both the Ackley and RCBS version. He seemed unimpressed and so was l...since l was stomping 280 improved velocities with about any 7RM l loaded for. So l never blew the coin to bother with it. I hardly consider it an essential item for any active BG hunter. Other stuff works as well or better. The cartridge is a favorite of rifle nuts on here but in a fairly active lifetime of BG hunting l have yet to see a single one afield anywhere...but someone must be using it! The 280 AI is a "lesser included" in a standard 7 rem mag. I also get the same ballistics from my FF loads (low pressure) for the 7mm Mashburn in the same action and barrel length with greater reserves for heavier bullets. Those here will have to forgive me if the cartridge causes me to yawn. I agree. I have owned and hunted successfully with the 7mm-08, 7X57, 280 Rem, 280 AI, 7mm Rem Mag, and 7mm MSM and the biggest waste of time, and smoke and mirrors in the bunch is the 280 AI. i now hunt almost exclusively with the 280 Remington.
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What were your expectations of the Ackley ?
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I thought the 223AI would straighten my slice and make my wiener bigger, but that wasn't the case.
Damn these Internet rumors.
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3150 with a 140 ttsx works just fine in mine. First elk when it was first built. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/splattermatic/MarkElkresized.jpg) 2nd elk with it after custom stock and done. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/splattermatic/56520cd1.jpg) 1st oryx. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/splattermatic/20121201_111806_zps39548226.jpg) 2nd oryx. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/splattermatic/20140124_161526_zpssfie2vkg.jpg) I like mine alot. Wouldn't change anything. Don't care to trim, so for me, AI is the way to go.
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I only started getting 4-5 mpg more on my truck, so it was a big let down for me as well.
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The problem is the 280AI can defy the laws of physics.
I didn't think this would be a problem until I learned of the potentially side effects this can produce.
For instance....one time when I fired my 280AI it actually slowed down the rotation of the planet. I believe the reason this happened was to make the bullet appear to be traveling faster in relation to the rotation of earth.
When I figured out what was really going on I was a little pissed! The slowed rotation was throwing my chronograph off and it was giving me a faulty reading.
I had always heard there is no free lunch and now I knew it was true!
Damn you Bobin! (grin)
Shod
Last edited by Shodd; 10/30/14.
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I thought the 223AI would straighten my slice and make my wiener bigger, but that wasn't the case.
Damn these Internet rumors. Hard to look for an increase when you turn to something already really small (223AI) to begin with.
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It was an itch to scratch. Can't say they'll be another....
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The problem is the 280AI can defy the laws of physics.
For instance....one time when I fired my 280AI it actually slowed down the rotation of the planet. I believe the reason this happened was to make the bullet appear to be traveling faster in relation to the rotation of earth.
Huh. I noticed that too. I thought it unrelated to the awesomeness of the cartridge. But now I know for sure.
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I only started getting 4-5 mpg more on my truck, so it was a big let down for me as well. You must not be living right. My super duty now only needs water (or I can just use dirt in a pinch) to run and it tows better than when I had to spring for diesel. This all in exact synchronicity with receipt of my 280AI! I'm thinking about getting another one done just to see what happens. Not sure that I could handle it. In my experience, 280AI = Chuck Norris!
Last edited by 257heaven; 10/30/14.
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I only started getting 4-5 mpg more on my truck, so it was a big let down for me as well. You must not be living right. My super duty now only needs water (or I can just use dirt in a pinch) to run and it tows better than when I had to spring for diesel. This all in exact synchronicity with receipt of my 280AI! I'm thinking about getting another one done just to see what happens. Not sure that I could handle it. In my experience, 280AI = Chuck Norris! Dude....your truck was not going faster! The earth was spinning slower making it appear that way! Shod 
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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What were your expectations of the Ackley ? I had no expectations, but it showed me nothing (unless extra work to make it feed is something) that a 280 Remington or 7MM Rem Mag couldn't or hasn't provided.
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3150 with a 140 ttsx works just fine in mine. First elk when it was first built. 2nd elk with it after custom stock and done. 1st oryx. 2nd oryx. I like mine alot. Wouldn't change anything. Don't care to trim, so for me, AI is the way to go. The trimming argument is, if nothing else, a little silly. I know the 280 AI works and could post pictures of pretty decent sized game taken with mine. But I could also post similar pictures of like game taken with a plethora of factory cartridges as well.
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What were your expectations of the Ackley ? I had no expectations, but it showed me nothing (unless extra work to make it feed is something) that a 280 Remington or 7MM Rem Mag couldn't or hasn't provided. Your saying you had problems making a 280AI feed properly....Hmmmmm.
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Right revelatory, that. And bracketed, too.
Apart from the (minor) differences in trajectory and recoil due to powder capacity, what would the same bullet possibly show you?
Defend the Constitution
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I was just giving kudo's to the cartridge.
I've got alot of pics of dead things taken with other cartridges as well.
Trimming is just one thing good about AI'ing any cartridge.
Plus a 280AI, is just plain sexy looking.
It has no real advantage over any other, it's just a personal choice.
How boring the world would be if everyone shot a 30-06.
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What were your expectations of the Ackley ? I had no expectations, but it showed me nothing (unless extra work to make it feed is something) that a 280 Remington or 7MM Rem Mag couldn't or hasn't provided. Your saying you had problems making a 280AI feed properly....Hmmmmm. Mine is built on a Whitworth Mouser 98. It feeds fine but required some work to get it too. Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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How boring the world would be if everyone shot a 30-06.
True. But, their plates would still be full.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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What were your expectations of the Ackley ? I had no expectations, but it showed me nothing (unless extra work to make it feed is something) that a 280 Remington or 7MM Rem Mag couldn't or hasn't provided. Your saying you had problems making a 280AI feed properly....Hmmmmm. I think you need to read what I said again.
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I was just giving kudo's to the cartridge.
I've got alot of pics of dead things taken with other cartridges as well.
Trimming is just one thing good about AI'ing any cartridge.
Plus a 280AI, is just plain sexy looking.
It has no real advantage over any other, it's just a personal choice.
How boring the world would be if everyone shot a 30-06.
You wrote: "Trimming is just one thing good about AI'ing any cartridge." I don't agree and found that the so called ai cases require a little trimming along the way also. That they do shrink the case LOA as they are fired and fill out that shoulder so the brass gets shorter for a while. That's why some think they require no or less trimming. Over all the "ai" thing is just a hobby diversion. I would not buy a used rifle with an 'ai' chamber unless it was really special for some other reason. I have three of those ai rifles now and one is still at a dealers for sale. I dropped the price once and it's still there! For a 7mm hunting rifle a lightweight Kimber 7-08 or else a 24" barreled 7mm mag make sense. The 280ai is just in the middle. It's ok but not a big deal. What with little 280 Rem brass out there it's impractical.
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The trimming argument is, if nothing else, a little silly. I know the 280 AI works and could post pictures of pretty decent sized game taken with mine. But I could also post similar pictures of like game taken with a plethora of factory cartridges as well.
I get a kick out of the "no trimming needed" argument as well. It's one thing if somebody is shooting competitively or blasting a couple thousand rounds at p-dogs a season; those guys might need to trim brass with the frequency of their haircuts. But most folks will have to trim brass for their big game rifles once every few years. Besides, trimming brass is no more difficult or time consuming than many other mundane reloading tasks. If trimming brass is really that big of a pain, buy a WFT trimmer and be done in no time.
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I was just giving kudo's to the cartridge.
I've got alot of pics of dead things taken with other cartridges as well.
Trimming is just one thing good about AI'ing any cartridge.
Plus a 280AI, is just plain sexy looking.
It has no real advantage over any other, it's just a personal choice.
How boring the world would be if everyone shot a 30-06.
You wrote: "Trimming is just one thing good about AI'ing any cartridge." I don't agree and found that the so called ai cases require a little trimming along the way also. That they do shrink the case LOA as they are fired and fill out that shoulder so the brass gets shorter for a while. That's why some think they require no or less trimming. Over all the "ai" thing is just a hobby diversion. I would not buy a used rifle with an 'ai' chamber unless it was really special for some other reason. I have three of those ai rifles now and one is still at a dealers for sale. I dropped the price once and it's still there! For a 7mm hunting rifle a lightweight Kimber 7-08 or else a 24" barreled 7mm mag make sense. The 280ai is just in the middle. It's ok but not a big deal. What with little 280 Rem brass out there it's impractical. So 7-08 brass is easy to find? 1st place I looked (Grafs) had Norma and Nosler 280 brass in stock but no 7-08 brass. And the 280AI is a SAAMI cartridge now, although Nosler 280AI brass was out of stock at Grafs.
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Weighing cases is a bigger pita for me than trimming.
An AI get you 4-5 more grains capacity. Which ain't much...but its more capacity. It will get you 50fps or 2" of barrel. Prior to having any book guidance the AI figures were all over the map for a few decades-which stands to reason--heck, look at some of the stuff posted today on the internet today about somebody's favorite wildcat.
Everyone knew/knows the 280 was loaded light and there wasn't any real empirical guidance to load it to "where it could be" apart from a comparison to similarly constructed bullets with like SD in the 270. And that really didn't matter to guys claiming more wondrous results.
Nosler SAAMIing was a big service to 280 handloaders as it gives a guy real empirical data to work with. Factory cases are a bonus. Prior to that I could see detractors raising a fuss about it and defending the merits of their favorite competing cartridge in its stead ad nauseum--but today its just another cartridge with its fps in the book for everybody to see.
What it's going to show you is 50fps more than a standard 280 could have been if loaded to 270 pressures. The xtra capacity comes in handy with 160s using book COAL. That's about it and that enough for me for some applications.
Feed-wise, it takes a little more pressure to get a long extractor hook (if you still use one) over the rim--but that is true of any sharp shouldered case. Any more feed issues than that is on the mechanic...in a M-700 type there should never be an issue...
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Lotsa 7-08 says 308 on the ass end....
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Lotsa 7-08 says 308 on the ass end.... The most difficult part of finding 7mm-08 brass is typing in your credit card info after Googling "Lake City 7.62 brass".
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Lotsa 7-08 says 308 on the ass end.... True that. And 280 can also be made from 30-06 or any other '06 based case. I guess I fail to see the hatred. But I digress and will leave each to his own.
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I think the dislike stems from some 280 AI guys claiming how incredible their round is. Keeping up with the 7 mag, superior to the 270 or 30-06. Things like that. So it's a case of backlash, in a way. The reality is the 280 AI is just fine, but isn't anything special compared to a bunch of other rounds.
Savage 99's case is different, as he is an idiot.
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I think the dislike stems from some 280 AI guys claiming how incredible their round is. Keeping up with the 7 mag, superior to the 270 or 30-06. Things like that. So it's a case of backlash, in a way. The reality is the 280 AI is just fine, but isn't anything special compared to a bunch of other rounds.
Savage 99's case is different, as he is an idiot. I agree on both counts. Some fellas load the pizz outta it and declare its magic. It is what it is, and that's just a real good round for a do all utility rifle on a .473 LA receiver.
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It's kinda like climbing Everest.....just because it's there. I think I may have to Ackley my .250 Savage....just because.. 
Last edited by John_Boy; 10/31/14.
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I think the dislike stems from some 280 AI guys claiming how incredible their round is. Keeping up with the 7 mag, superior to the 270 or 30-06. Things like that. So it's a case of backlash, in a way. The reality is the 280 AI is just fine, but isn't anything special compared to a bunch of other rounds.
Savage 99's case is different, as he is an idiot. Got it. I like stuff that's different and I equally like stuff that's plain. I try to not to discriminate against any cartridge, although I'm definitely not a magnum guy. 257 Wthby.....Yes. Other magnum rounds I could not care less about. And I have and like to tinker with 223's and 223AI's. 250 Savage and 250AI. 257 Rbts and 257AI. 280 and 280AI. I love to spread the love. And no argument here on savage99.
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Maybe its just Don's charm...:)
Yeah, an enthusiastic endorsement always rubs ya once you already rung stuff out...conversely, so does an advantage minimized by entrenched advocates. The smallest differences are sometimes the most interesting to ferret out.
I am deeply thankful that most of my more grievous handloading sins were pre-internet.
Took me about 10 years to figure out Ken Waters got the numbers he got because he was a lot better at it than I would ever be...:)
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tomk......Great post earlier this morning. Anybody looking at it with some good reasoning knows what to expect with an AI'd cartridge.
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Thanks 257.
Hope its warm there--snowing here, nasty.
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I think the dislike stems from some 280 AI guys claiming how incredible their round is. Keeping up with the 7 mag, superior to the 270 or 30-06. Things like that. So it's a case of backlash, in a way. The reality is the 280 AI is just fine, but isn't anything special compared to a bunch of other rounds.
Savage 99's case is different, as he is an idiot. Don drives that point home aggressively with every key stroke. I have to agree that when folks start making silly claims about the Ackley that just gets fair minded people to raise the BS flag. For me, it's really about a lot of very small advantages that add up to make the 280 Ackley what it is. - much less case trimming - a small increase in velocity - can build a lighter rifle than the magnum rounds - extra round in the mag box - lots of sleek bullets in 284 - lighter recoil and muzzle blast than the mag rounds it gets compared to - shoots flatter than the 06 - if you compare it to a 270 w/150 gr bullets, the Ackley gets a solid 100 fps gain - and last but not least.......it just looks cool ! ! !
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Headstamp to headstamp doesn't mean schit. Look at 120TTSX in a 280ai and 110TTSX in a 270.
Boolits matter (I stole that line, FYI)
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Campfire Greenhorn
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how much gain would a .280 AI in a 22" barrel? my brother has been thinking of reaming his out to 280AI but his barrel is only 22 inches. He said if he can get 3000 to 3100 FPS with 140 loads out of a 22" barrel then he is happy because he is a chicken when it comes to reloading and can only get 2850 140grain for his 22" 280 REM.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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also it is his backpack rifle and he isnt going to put anything longer than a 22 tube on it.
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It's doable.
7SAUM will do 3050 with a 140TTSX pretty easy in 22" tube. The case capacity is nearly identical, depending on brass.
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What were your expectations of the Ackley ? that a 280 Remington or 7MM Rem Mag couldn't or hasn't provided. Your saying you had problems making a 280AI feed properly....Hmmmmm. I think you need to read what I said again. Read it again and I still read that you was having a problem making a 280AI feed properly. Hmmmm I am surely missing something.
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You should be able to get 3000+ fps out of a 22" barrel with 140 grainers no problem. I get 3120 with my favorite 140 grain load with a 23" barrel without pushing it. There is probably a little more there but I have been happy with that load.
.280 AI Fan
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I've not AI'd any of the several 280's I've owned over the years. There's no doubt of some performance gain, but aside from the possibility of less case trimming, I've just seen no need when the standard case is loaded to it's potential. My current favorite below. MM ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010602Medium.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010600Medium.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010598Medium.jpg)
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I've not AI'd any of the several 280's I've owned over the years. There's no doubt of some performance gain, but aside from the possibility of less case trimming, I've just seen no need when the standard case is loaded to it's potential. My current favorite below. MM MM, what is your load and what velocity do you get loading it to full potential? I am curious because I load 280 for my family's 3 guns with 22" barrels and all of them can only push 140's at 2900 MAX with careful increments to 270 pressures. And when loaded to near max 270 pressures, accuracy decreases and I found it more accurate along the velocities of 2790-2850. Now if I can get a "mild and accraute" 280 AI to toss 3000-3100 out of a 22", I'd bite the bullet because that's 200 fps and not reaching near high pressures to do so. Will a deer know the difference at 300 yards (my max), no. But at least I can talk smack to .270 win guys that my 280AI 22" is more efficient. Thanks to some of the guys here for advice, I will tell my brother to make his a 280 ackley.
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both.
Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel.
I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
Last edited by RinB; 11/01/14.
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
Very interesting approach. I've heard here that long throating like this, fixes the 7mm Rem mag How long do you trim your 280 cases? ie. do you let them grow longer than 2.540" with appropriate chamber adjustments for neck length? The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both. another good reason to just extend the throat if you have the mag length. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
Very interesting thoughts, please elaborate on throat lengthening. Cheers
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Thanks to some of the guys here for advice, I will tell my brother to make his a 280 ackley.
Rechambering a factory barrel that isn�t getting the velocity one is looking for is throwing good money at bad. The barrel is likely still going to be slow, but now it will be slow with a few hundred extra dollars sunk into set back/rechambering and new dies. What I�m trying to not so eloquently say is that rechambering won�t fix the slow velocity issue if the barrel has loose bore dimensions. Also, I�m not sure what being a �reloading chicken� is, but a 280 AI isn�t going to change things. If that means your brother backs down when pressure signs are encountered on the brass, he is a smart man, as pressure signs don�t often occur until over 70,000 psi. Have him load some 120 ttsxs at 3150 fps in the factory barrel, and he�ll not want for a 280 AI any longer. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that The problem there being the throat length to magazine length on the Kimber 280 AI. Long throat, not so long mag box.
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pg : good to know - the LA rugers are like that too with no extra room in the mag box.
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Karl Feldkamp @ Kampfeld Custom did the bolt fluting & skeletonizing, the cerrokote & (stock) trigger work. I did the stocking & bedding, B&C MR stock. It's an older, smooth bolt knob Rem 700 Mountain Rifle, factory 22" barrel that allows the bullet to be seated out a bit. With the Leupold 2.5x8 & Talley LWT mounts, it weighs 6lb, 14oz.
MM, what is your load and what velocity do you get loading it to full potential?
59 gr of RL-19, 140 NBT or 140 Barnes TSX, 3020 FPS. I will say that I've never been able to get 270 velocities with comparable bullets in any 280 I've owned & most are a little fussier in what they like than what I've found in most 270's; the rifle pictured is an exception......it's fairly fast & not very finicky. Here are some pics of some load development testing groups with 140 & 120 NBT's & RL-19, Win 780 & IMR 7828 with the 140's * RL-15 with the 120's. MM ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010593Medium.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010594Medium.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010595Medium.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/baw0000/p1010592Medium.jpg)
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Thanks to some of the guys here for advice, I will tell my brother to make his a 280 ackley.
Rechambering a factory barrel that isn�t getting the velocity one is looking for is throwing good money at bad. The barrel is likely still going to be slow, but now it will be slow with a few hundred extra dollars sunk into set back/rechambering and new dies. What I�m trying to not so eloquently say is that rechambering won�t fix the slow velocity issue if the barrel has loose bore dimensions. Also, I�m not sure what being a �reloading chicken� is, but a 280 AI isn�t going to change things. If that means your brother backs down when pressure signs are encountered on the brass, he is a smart man, as pressure signs don�t often occur until over 70,000 psi. Have him load some 120 ttsxs at 3150 fps in the factory barrel, and he�ll not want for a 280 AI any longer. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that The problem there being the throat length to magazine length on the Kimber 280 AI. Long throat, not so long mag box. Prairie goat, my brother has a krieger chomoly #2 finished at 22" ready to be reamed, he was debating on either 280 or improved. what's to hurt by going improve, still be able to shoot the old 280 and look cool. It's his gun, so he can build it whatever he likes. As for me, doesn't matter if I am shooting a 7 mag, 308 or 270, I limit all my shots to 300 yards so deer won't know the difference and so do I.
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Read it again and I still read that you was having a problem making a 280AI feed properly. Hmmmm I am surely missing something. [/quote]
Feed work is common on some custom builds.
Now if the work was performed and the cartridge didn't feed that would classify as a problem getting it to feed. No one ever said that it is a problem to get a 280AI to feed. It was stated that it may require a little work.
Work to complete the build
Problem getting it to feed
2 entirely different thing
Shod
Shod
Last edited by Shodd; 11/01/14.
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I think you need to read what I said again. Read it again and I still read that you was having a problem making a 280AI feed properly. Hmmmm I am surely missing something. [/quote] Feed work is common on some custom builds. Now if the work was performed and the cartridge didn't feed that would classify as a problem getting it to feed. Shod [/quote] Huh....Not sure I follow what your saying...Well sure if it won't feed then it is a feeding problem.
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[/quote]
Huh....Not sure I follow what your saying...Well sure if it won't feed then it is a feeding problem. [/quote]
It is simple rifle build terminology to clarify in precise terms what may or may not be required.
The choice of the word problem is simply a poor choice of words and inaccurately describes what the build may entail. The word problem implies that you may never be able to get the feed to work properly.
Anyways...I am pretty sure you still don't get it but no worries mate.
Shod
Last edited by Shodd; 11/01/14.
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No worries here for sure but then none of my AI rifle have a feeding problem. YMMV
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Thanks to some of the guys here for advice, I will tell my brother to make his a 280 ackley.
Rechambering a factory barrel that isn�t getting the velocity one is looking for is throwing good money at bad. The barrel is likely still going to be slow, but now it will be slow with a few hundred extra dollars sunk into set back/rechambering and new dies. What I�m trying to not so eloquently say is that rechambering won�t fix the slow velocity issue if the barrel has loose bore dimensions. Also, I�m not sure what being a �reloading chicken� is, but a 280 AI isn�t going to change things. If that means your brother backs down when pressure signs are encountered on the brass, he is a smart man, as pressure signs don�t often occur until over 70,000 psi. Have him load some 120 ttsxs at 3150 fps in the factory barrel, and he�ll not want for a 280 AI any longer. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that The problem there being the throat length to magazine length on the Kimber 280 AI. Long throat, not so long mag box. Prairie goat, my brother has a krieger chomoly #2 finished at 22" ready to be reamed, he was debating on either 280 or improved. what's to hurt by going improve, still be able to shoot the old 280 and look cool. It's his gun, so he can build it whatever he likes. As for me, doesn't matter if I am shooting a 7 mag, 308 or 270, I limit all my shots to 300 yards so deer won't know the difference and so do I. You originally mentioned a rechamber, not a rebarrel, hence my comments regarding rechambering. If going with a new barrel, a 280 AI is a fine choice. In fact it's just as good as a 270 or 30-06. P.S. I would seriously consider a SS barrel for a backpack rifle.
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I bought that one a few years ago. I took a decent buck with it last year shooting 162 amaxes at 3040 fps. Shot was about 400 yards and it worked well. I had to bed the lug and sand the channel a bit but now it's a sub moa gun and handles like a dream. Bb
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both.
Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel.
I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
I've never seen a factory barrel chambered for magnum that didn't haven't a heavier barrel contour (longer shank) than the same rifle chambered for non-magnum rounds. Why do the factories do that ?
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No worries here for sure but then none of my AI rifle have a feeding problem. YMMV By no feeding problem do you mean that no feed work was ever performed for any of your AI's? Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Prairie goat he is having it ceracoted and krieger doesn't make skinny SS barrels for his lightweight project.
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Campfire Ranger
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They ain't gonna cerakote the bore. That's where you need the stainless.
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Campfire Outfitter
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They ain't gonna cerakote the bore. That's where you need the stainless.
Exactly. Plenty of other manufacturers make skinny barrels in SS. If he's dead set on a Krieger tube, it's no big deal to order one in a heavier contour from someplace like bugholes.net and have a smith turn it down to his preferred contour before screwing everything together.
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Campfire Ranger
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59 gr of RL-19, 140 NBT or 140 Barnes TSX, 3020 FPS.
Always liked that rig. For conversation, 57.3 gr. of RL-19 w/ 140 Accubonds averaged 2,954 FPS in my 22" M70 and 60.5 of RL-19 w/ 129 LRX averaged 3,084. I like that powder in my 270, but it didn't show me much speedwise in my 260.
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Campfire Ranger
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59 gr of RL-19, 140 NBT or 140 Barnes TSX, 3020 FPS.
Always liked that rig. For conversation, 57.3 gr. of RL-19 w/ 140 Accubonds averaged 2,954 FPS in my 22" M70 and 60.5 of RL-19 w/ 129 LRX averaged 3,084. I like that powder in my 270, but it didn't show me much speedwise in my 260. Never had a 260, so can't comment on it. '19 & '22 are both really good in the 270, 280 & '06. When I go to 150 or heavier in either the 270 or 280, then I prefer RL-22. MM
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Campfire Outfitter
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These Kimber 7mm WSM's and 270 WSM's weigh less than a M70 Featherweight rifle in 280 and are better guns.
I got the 270 WSM Kimber first as many said the 7mm WSM would not make it. Then I had to get a 7mm WSM anyway!
I have not had time to finish the 7mm WSM but it's shooting 168's well. I want to shoot 140's.
The 270 WSM Kimber has been outstanding from the start. I took a very large buck with it. It's shot the 150 gr SST into a 1/2" group at 200 yds the other day and the best part was that it had remained sighted in. Right on at 200 yds!
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No worries here for sure but then none of my AI rifle have a feeding problem. YMMV By no feeding problem do you mean that no feed work was ever performed for any of your AI's? Shod You got it....
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Campfire Greenhorn
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They ain't gonna cerakote the bore. That's where you need the stainless.
I and many others here in the pacific west have hunted here with blued guns and it doesn't seem to affect us if you take care of your guns and everyone should. Piece of tape over the muzzle and the bore is safe. Matter of fact my brothers gun he is re barreling right now has been to Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California and British Columbia and has shown no rusting or pitting, only a worn out barrel from all the game he shot. Prairie goat, he choosed krieger because he has had accuracy issues with the light buttoned rifle barrels. So he swears by the light cut rifled barrels,
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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These Kimber 7mm WSM's and 270 WSM's weigh less than a M70 Featherweight rifle in 280 and are better guns.
I got the 270 WSM Kimber first as many said the 7mm WSM would not make it. Then I had to get a 7mm WSM anyway!
I have not had time to finish the 7mm WSM but it's shooting 168's well. I want to shoot 140's.
The 270 WSM Kimber has been outstanding from the start. I took a very large buck with it. It's shot the 150 gr SST into a 1/2" group at 200 yds the other day and the best part was that it had remained sighted in. Right on at 200 yds! First of all a long action model 70 can be made to just as light or a little over a 8400 wsm with a edge stock, light barrel and bottom metal with talley lw rings. Still a beefier and better action vs the cylindrical 8400 wsm action and no Russian roulette to play.
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No worries here for sure but then none of my AI rifle have a feeding problem. YMMV By no feeding problem do you mean that no feed work was ever performed for any of your AI's? Shod You got it.... Built mine on a mouser action and the claw extractor required some minor work to make it feed well. A push feed would be no "problem" I mean extra work. Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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...I got the 270 WSM Kimber first as many said the 7mm WSM would not make it... If people would stop saying that and others stop buying into it the 7WSM might do well still.
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Campfire Ranger
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They ain't gonna cerakote the bore. That's where you need the stainless.
I and many others here in the pacific west have hunted here with blued guns and it doesn't seem to affect us if you take care of your guns and everyone should. Piece of tape over the muzzle and the bore is safe. Matter of fact my brothers gun he is re barreling right now has been to Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California and British Columbia and has shown no rusting or pitting, only a worn out barrel from all the game he shot. Prairie goat, he choosed krieger because he has had accuracy issues with the light buttoned rifle barrels. So he swears by the light cut rifled barrels, Rock Creek is your huckleberry for the ultralight SS cut rifled barrels. But good luck ordering and getting your order.
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You should be able to get 3000+ fps out of a 22" barrel with 140 grainers no problem. I get 3120 with my favorite 140 grain load with a 23" barrel without pushing it. There is probably a little more there but I have been happy with that load. Today I chronographed loads in my 22" barrelled A1 using 160gn Accubonds and 60gn of Rel 22 which is a half grain under the Nosler book Max load. It developed 2940fps which I thought rather useful in my Winchester Featherweight. John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Tough to make a RCH worth much, particularly in this case.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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I think you need to read what I said again. Read it again and I still read that you was having a problem making a 280AI feed properly. Hmmmm I am surely missing something. Feed work is common on some custom builds. Now if the work was performed and the cartridge didn't feed that would classify as a problem getting it to feed. Shod [/quote] Huh....Not sure I follow what your saying...Well sure if it won't feed then it is a feeding problem. [/quote] Here is the issue. The rifle fed as a 30-06 perfectly. When rebarreled to the 280 AI it required work to make it feed properly, but never did feed like the 30-06. I never said it didn't feed. I said it required additional work. There is a difference. And proper feeding, I've found, has very subjective definitions. I should point out that I hunt coyotes and such with a 243 AI. It feeds fine, but required more work than the standard 243 to do so. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is what it is. When guys are pushing AI cartridges because you don't need to trim them you have to know they are stretching for reasons to sell their cool aid.
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Probably had more to do with smith doing the work!
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Campfire Ranger
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What action are you having to modify to make the Ackley feed correctly ?
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Campfire Outfitter
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I found a significant defect in the first WSM I bought. It was a Winchester M70 SS with crf in 7mm WSM. The chamber was way out of round!
Winchester overtightened the barrels into the actions on some and that made the chamber sag into the extractor cut they say.
I sold mine as the out of round chamber bothered me and it was not worth the bother. Also the rifle was not that accurate.
The Kimbers are much better actions. Their safeties work well and smooth. Not like those M70's.
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...I got the 270 WSM Kimber first as many said the 7mm WSM would not make it... If people would stop saying that and others stop buying into it the 7WSM might do well still. It turned out to be true. It's been discussed. For sure there was no significant 270 magnum and the 7mm Remington magnum is big. I have both a 270 WSM and a 7mm WSM in the Kimber Montanas. Presently the 270 WSM is shooting better than the 7. My heart is with the 7mm WSM but it's not going to go hunting unless I can get it shooting better.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
Very interesting approach. I've heard here that long throating like this, fixes the 7mm Rem mag How long do you trim your 280 cases? ie. do you let them grow longer than 2.540" with appropriate chamber adjustments for neck length? The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both. another good reason to just extend the throat if you have the mag length. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
Very interesting thoughts, please elaborate on throat lengthening. Cheers No doubt Rick could elaborate and so could l for that matter. But for those so inclined to go look the topic was pretty well covered back in t he 1980's by Layne Simpson in an as rticle entitled "Long Throating the 7mm Express Remington". The data was pretty comprehensive and included diffrrent barrel lengths and powders as good in the 280 as anything today (MRP for example).Some of the data shows velocities so close t o 280AI it m akes us wonder.. I did some work with the 280 over the tears and maybe half dozen rifles. And talked th o RinB to compare notes since he is an old pal goibg back 30 years. After doing all this it's not hard to understand why l could never get excited over a 280AI. It was just easierto get a 7 RemMag if l wanted more than a 280 offered. Yes the Kimber Montana outs a slightly new slant on the whole thing with an 06 bllt face.
Last edited by BobinNH; 11/02/14.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I read that article and had a M70 throated for 160/175 partitions.
Something to consider today is that VLD bullets have a lot more boattail and they are sleeker--the ogive is set back further--thus, they seat deeper in the case. Long-throating can become more of an issue to favoring particular bullets than it already was.
Another consideration is the Nosler case. I weighed the water capacity of my fired 280AI (nosler) to the mouth - 75.1g. Have had several variations of AI over the years and more AI rifles than is reasonable. The new Nosler case has more capacity. I was supposed to be leaving to go North when sidetracked with this and I did a quick weigh on a standard 280 Remington case at 68.3--a guy should compare the Nosler standard case.
Defend the Constitution
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I found a significant defect in the first WSM I bought. It was a Winchester M70 SS with crf in 7mm WSM. The chamber was way out of round!
Winchester overtightened the barrels into the actions on some and that made the chamber sag into the extractor cut they say.
I sold mine as the out of round chamber bothered me and it was not worth the bother. Also the rifle was not that accurate.
The Kimbers are much better actions. Their safeties work well and smooth. Not like those M70's. That's was a one time mistake with the early WSM CRF model 70's. All the short fats have chambering issues until the manufacturers figured out what was going on, even Kimber. Once winchester figured it out it was fixed pretty quickly and everyone who sent it to winchester got it fixed. But just because you got one bad apple doesn't mean the whole model 70's suck. Look at all the bad kimbers, most are Russian roulettes, the chances of getting a shooter to lemon is slim. They had a bad problem with 7mm bore barrels for awhile and couldn't find out what was wrong and there was no 7mm-08 made for 3-4 years. Now the model 70 safety being not working well and smooth, I seriously don't know where you got that from because most rifle looney don't complain of that. I've owned a kimber in .223, is it a great gun? Yes. Better than a model 70? I think most wouldn't agree.
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I think you need to read what I said again. I had no expectations, but it showed me nothing (unless extra work to make it feed is something) that a 280 Remington or 7MM Rem Mag couldn't or hasn't provided.
Your saying you had problems making a 280AI feed properly....Hmmmmm.
. What action are we talking about that has feeding problems with the 280 Ackley ? Was it something other than a Springfield based round (30/06, 270, 25/05 etc) to begin with ?
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They ain't gonna cerakote the bore. That's where you need the stainless.
Exactly. Plenty of other manufacturers make skinny barrels in SS. If he's dead set on a Krieger tube, it's no big deal to order one in a heavier contour from someplace like bugholes.net and have a smith turn it down to his preferred contour before screwing everything together. Krieger is conservative on their stainless minimum contour per caliber policy. The smallest contour they will turn in .284 is a #4.5 contour, which will measure .900" 6" from the breech and .670" at 26", as Krieger wants a minimum .900" at the neck on a barrel in .284. If you order a fluted .284 #4.5 or #5 contour, they will bump that measurement up to 1.00" at 6" from the breech as they cut their flutes 0.050" deep.
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
Very interesting approach. I've heard here that long throating like this, fixes the 7mm Rem mag How long do you trim your 280 cases? ie. do you let them grow longer than 2.540" with appropriate chamber adjustments for neck length? The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both. another good reason to just extend the throat if you have the mag length. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
Very interesting thoughts, please elaborate on throat lengthening. Cheers No doubt Rick could elaborate and so could l for that matter. But for those so inclined to go look the topic was pretty well covered back in t he 1980's by Layne Simpson in an as rticle entitled "Long Throating the 7mm Express Remington". The data was pretty comprehensive and included diffrrent barrel lengths and powders as good in the 280 as anything today (MRP for example).Some of the data shows velocities so close t o 280AI it m akes us wonder.. I did some work with the 280 over the tears and maybe half dozen rifles. And talked th o RinB to compare notes since he is an old pal goibg back 30 years. After doing all this it's not hard to understand why l could never get excited over a 280AI. It was just easierto get a 7 RemMag if l wanted more than a 280 offered. Yes the Kimber Montana outs a slightly new slant on the whole thing with an 06 bllt face. So Bob, seeing how RinB hasn't answered my question and I know you have lots of experience with mag chambered rounds, are you of the same opinion that you can rechamber a skinny short shanked barrel normally seen in say 270's, 280's and 06's in a mag round such as the Mashburn or 300 Win Mag for example ? I've always seen mag chambered barrels to have at least a longer shank area than non-mag rounds. I wonder if my smith would take a Remington Mountain Rifle barrel from a 280 and rechamber it to a 7mm Mashburn, providing I did the bolt face mods first ?
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Campfire Ranger
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
Very interesting approach. I've heard here that long throating like this, fixes the 7mm Rem mag How long do you trim your 280 cases? ie. do you let them grow longer than 2.540" with appropriate chamber adjustments for neck length? The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both. another good reason to just extend the throat if you have the mag length. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
Very interesting thoughts, please elaborate on throat lengthening. Cheers No doubt Rick could elaborate and so could l for that matter. But for those so inclined to go look the topic was pretty well covered back in t he 1980's by Layne Simpson in an as rticle entitled "Long Throating the 7mm Express Remington". The data was pretty comprehensive and included diffrrent barrel lengths and powders as good in the 280 as anything today (MRP for example).Some of the data shows velocities so close t o 280AI it m akes us wonder.. I did some work with the 280 over the tears and maybe half dozen rifles. And talked th o RinB to compare notes since he is an old pal goibg back 30 years. After doing all this it's not hard to understand why l could never get excited over a 280AI. It was just easierto get a 7 RemMag if l wanted more than a 280 offered. Yes the Kimber Montana outs a slightly new slant on the whole thing with an 06 bllt face. So Bob, seeing how RinB hasn't answered my question and I know you have lots of experience with mag chambered rounds, are you of the same opinion that you can rechamber a skinny short shanked barrel normally seen in say 270's, 280's and 06's in a mag round such as the Mashburn or 300 Win Mag for example ? I've always seen mag chambered barrels to have at least a longer shank area than non-mag rounds. I wonder if my smith would take a Remington Mountain Rifle barrel from a 280 and rechamber it to a 7mm Mashburn, providing I did the bolt face mods first ? Actually, I think the shank diameter is more of a problem than the length.........but I've seen some pretty light magnum shanked barrels. MM
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I've owned a kimber in .223, is it a great gun? Yes. Better than a model 70? I think most wouldn't agree. There's at least one avid poster here who won't agree with that statement. Hint......he throws his Kimbers around on the rocks to demonstrate their durability.  MM
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Campfire Ranger
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I never measured the shank diameter, but it sure looks to be thicker as well. Just take a casual glance at a Rem sporter and a Rem mag sporter and the mag sporter appears to be thicker and has a longer shank as well.
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Campfire Tracker
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+1
I agree with you on this, but really have nothing to back it up other than having looked at a lot of rifles.
I don't recall ever seeing a magnum rifle with a super light barrel contour.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
MAGA
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I've owned a kimber in .223, is it a great gun? Yes. Better than a model 70? I think most wouldn't agree. There's at least one avid poster here who won't agree with that statement. Hint......he throws his Kimbers around on the rocks to demonstrate their durability. MM Comparing new rifles, Kimber blows Winchester out of the water.
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Look at all the bad kimbers, most are Russian roulettes, the chances of getting a shooter to lemon is slim. Wrong.
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Campfire Tracker
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I've owned a kimber in .223, is it a great gun? Yes. Better than a model 70? I think most wouldn't agree. There's at least one avid poster here who won't agree with that statement. Hint......he throws his Kimbers around on the rocks to demonstrate their durability. MM Comparing new rifles, Kimber blows Winchester out of the water. +1 No comparison.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
MAGA
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Campfire Greenhorn
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If it was so good I wonder why there is such a big thread on the hunting rifle section on how to make a kimber shoot and the rave reviews of the famous kimber roulette. Not just here on the campfire but everywhere else. I have mostly hear of good praises from the new winchesters only and nothing has to be done to it to make it shoot like messing with the kimber mag box, torque settings, bedding, blah blah blah the whole bible written on it, lol.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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RD I will try to answer even though I am not a gunsmith....first, no I like a lighter contour in 270/280 and other standard cases in a hunting rifle than for magnum chamberings. But as an example to think about the pre 64 M70 FW came chambered for the 264 Win Mag and I am pretty sure it had exactly the same contour as a 270 FW. Never heard of a single issue with those rifles even though I would not want a FW contour for a magnum chambering. I like a bit more meat around a belted case. I have played with contours in the 7 Rem Mag since the 80's when I figured out most factory contours were just too heavy for what I wanted. I about drove Butch Searcy nuts with one until a light went on when I finally said...."Make it like a 270... and he said....."I know what you want"...and on my 24" Krieger he radiused (bad word) the barrel just forward of the chamber area sharply downward and transitioned to a light contour for the rest of the barrel.This is what he called at the time a "Burgess Contour" (Tom Burgess) and for years I did not know what he meant until I saw the same thing on some custom rifles on which Tom Burgess did the metal work. I think that Utah 7/08 on here has a 7 Rem Mag with a very clever contour that is very much like what I had. At any rate the barrel on mine was very accurate and the rifle weighed a bit under 7.5 pounds....for its day it was a very light rifle for that chambering. The barrel on my 7 Mashburn started as a Krieger #2...Gene Simillion lightened it a bit in the transition from chamber to barrel shank. The rifle weighs about 7.75 pounds scoped. I also have a 7 RM with a 24" Brux #2,also on a M70 Classic....there is a enough difference between the two that you will notice the difference...not a lot but you can notice it when you pick up the rifles. I think the Mashburn is about "perfect" but so was that old Krieger Butch did for me.At least for a barrel to be carried a lot. Factories will standardize contours to save money so that in 338 they feel fine but in 7 RM they leave a lot of meat. In no particular order the factory 7 Mag contours that I "like" are: The Rem 700 KS Mountain rifle ( n 280 i would want a lighter contour); the contour on the Ruger M77 Hawkeye and original tang safety M77 (not the heavy one because they made two)are also good.The contour on a 7mm WSM Montana is also very light for a 7mm magnum. Building rifles I notice that,at least to me,guys choose barrel contours that are bit too heavy and then wonder why their rifles end up weighing too much. What you get for a barrel contour depends on how you plan to use the rifles. Mine spend far more time in my hands, unslung, so I don't like a lot of weight. Don't know if this answers your question. In passing I will mention that The Rickster (RinB) is one of the most knowledgeable metal and custom rifle customers we will bump into....he has literally owned it all from the top makers,and taught me a bunch of stuff ; when building I always talk to him about it and have been for 30+ years. Is there a Kimber vs Current Winchester discussion going on?
Last edited by BobinNH; 11/04/14.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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+1
I agree with you on this, but really have nothing to back it up other than having looked at a lot of rifles.
I don't recall ever seeing a magnum rifle with a super light barrel contour. What about the Mod 70 Featherweights in .270 and .300 Weatherby?
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+1
I agree with you on this, but really have nothing to back it up other than having looked at a lot of rifles.
I don't recall ever seeing a magnum rifle with a super light barrel contour. What about the Mod 70 Featherweights in .270 and .300 Weatherby? These were "Featherweights" in the stock only. Barrels were standard magnum contour.
"after the bullet leaves the barrel it doesn't care what headstamp was on the case"
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I used one in .300 Weatherby some years back but don't recall the barrel contour so you may have something there. I do have an unused new featherweight stock with the standard barrel contour so it is possible they made both versions.
John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Thanks Bob. You mentioned some of the older barrels appearing to be the same "contour" in some mag chamberings, but is it possible, that they had heavy enough contours back them to handle standard and mag chamberings ? I guess what I was referring to was the rifles of today, such as the one I mentioned, the Remington Mountain Rifle, which also came with a standard contour and a mag contour which was kind of my point. Maybe gunsmiths will shave a few thousands here or there, but I believe, in general the factories have different contours for standard and mag chamberings. I could be wrong though.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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RD I am pretty sure that M70's used the same contours for standard and magnum chamberings, things like FW's and 375 H&H's excepted.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I don't know if RinB is a gunsmith or something but perhaps he has his own experience with barrel contours that doesn't necessarily conform with what factory ideas are about safe thickness's for magnum chambered rounds. All I know from my limited experience is that factories appear to use heavier barrels than perhaps what a gunsmith would do per customer requests. Even that 300 WM Remington Custom Shop African Plains rifle I have has a heavier contour barrel than say their KS rifles in standard, non magnum chamberings, but it is visibly trimmer than the production magnum sporter contours.
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If it was so good I wonder why there is such a big thread on the hunting rifle section on how to make a kimber shoot and the rave reviews of the famous kimber roulette. Not just here on the campfire but everywhere else. I have mostly hear of good praises from the new winchesters only and nothing has to be done to it to make it shoot like messing with the kimber mag box, torque settings, bedding, blah blah blah the whole bible written on it, lol. I've owned 5 Kimber Montanas, and 2 recently manufactured Winchesters. The Kimbers shot as well or better than the Winchesters, and both Winchesters had issues. In the future if I go to buy a Winchester Model 70, it will have been manufactured before 1964.
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Thanks Bob. You mentioned some of the older barrels appearing to be the same "contour" in some mag chamberings, but is it possible, that they had heavy enough contours back them to handle standard and mag chamberings ? I guess what I was referring to was the rifles of today, such as the one I mentioned, the Remington Mountain Rifle, which also came with a standard contour and a mag contour which was kind of my point. Maybe gunsmiths will shave a few thousands here or there, but I believe, in general the factories have different contours for standard and mag chamberings. I could be wrong though. A good example that comes to mind is my dads early Remington 700 in 264 win mag that came in a factory sporter contour not the rem mag contour. These barrels were stainless steel but had a blue/black finish on them which has all but worn off from use in the field and handling. I don't know if this fits your criteria as a "light contour" but an example of a magnum chambering sharing a sporter barrel contour with 270 etc chamberings nonetheless.
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Also I see plenty of magnum chamberings on here using #2 type barrel contours and the Kimber 8400 short mags sport a fairly thin barrel contour as well. I think the factories going heavier is most likely lawyer issues and extra precaution but I am not a gunsmith just offering my opinion that its not a huge deal unless really pushing the bore size in a skinny tube.
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If it was so good I wonder why there is such a big thread on the hunting rifle section on how to make a kimber shoot and the rave reviews of the famous kimber roulette. Not just here on the campfire but everywhere else. I have mostly hear of good praises from the new winchesters only and nothing has to be done to it to make it shoot like messing with the kimber mag box, torque settings, bedding, blah blah blah the whole bible written on it, lol. I've owned 5 Kimber Montanas, and 2 recently manufactured Winchesters. The Kimbers shot as well or better than the Winchesters, and both Winchesters had issues. In the future if I go to buy a Winchester Model 70, it will have been manufactured before 1964. I own pre-war 30-06, transition 270 WCF, 54 supergrade 257 Roberts, 58' 243 featherweight, 52' 300 h&h, push feed 7x57 and 6.5x55, 4 New Haven classics, SC Extreme Weather and SC FW Deluxe. NO ISSUES. I would still buy kimbers, but only thier 1911s.
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I own pre-war 30-06, transition 270 WCF, 54 supergrade 257 Roberts, 58' 243 featherweight, 52' 300 h&h, push feed 7x57 and 6.5x55, 4 New Haven classics, SC Extreme Weather and SC FW Deluxe. NO ISSUES. I would still buy kimbers, but only thier 1911s. Interesting - I would buy their rifles but NOT their 1911.
Me
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RD I am pretty sure that M70's used the same contours for standard and magnum chamberings, things like FW's and 375 H&H's excepted. Do you think that the factories want to, in general, maintain a certain shank diameter and shank length for say magnum rounds that are based on H&H rounds and perhaps this is why mag contoured barrels are heavier than non-magnum chambered rounds ? Maybe I wasn't stating my observations clearly enough as I don't believe RinB has responded to my question.
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I have had three "improved" 280's, two AI and one RCBS. I have also shot a 280 a lot. My 280 with a longer throat, OAL 3.45, is about 30-35 fps behind the "improved" cases at equal pressures. In a hunting rifle, I would use a 22-23" barrel.
Very interesting approach. I've heard here that long throating like this, fixes the 7mm Rem mag How long do you trim your 280 cases? ie. do you let them grow longer than 2.540" with appropriate chamber adjustments for neck length? The reason the improved cases are more difficult to get to feed as slickly as a standard is because of the reduced body taper. The shoulder angle has nothing to do with that other than most "improveds" have both. another good reason to just extend the throat if you have the mag length. Also the idea that a 280 AI is lighter than a 7 mag is just wrong thinking. Same stock, same barrel, same action...the magnum will be slightly lighter because the chamber removes a little more steel. Kimber 84L changes that I would get the standard built but have the throat extended. Cases and dies are cheaper. Or just get a 270 or a 7RM.
Very interesting thoughts, please elaborate on throat lengthening. Cheers No doubt Rick could elaborate and so could l for that matter. But for those so inclined to go look the topic was pretty well covered back in t he 1980's by Layne Simpson in an as rticle entitled "Long Throating the 7mm Express Remington". The data was pretty comprehensive and included diffrrent barrel lengths and powders as good in the 280 as anything today (MRP for example).Some of the data shows velocities so close t o 280AI it m akes us wonder.. I did some work with the 280 over the tears and maybe half dozen rifles. And talked th o RinB to compare notes since he is an old pal goibg back 30 years. After doing all this it's not hard to understand why l could never get excited over a 280AI. It was just easierto get a 7 RemMag if l wanted more than a 280 offered. Yes the Kimber Montana outs a slightly new slant on the whole thing with an 06 bllt face. BobinNH, RinB - Thanks again for an interesting reference ! I'll be digging for the May 1980 issue of Rifle (#69), to explore that further.
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I own pre-war 30-06, transition 270 WCF, 54 supergrade 257 Roberts, 58' 243 featherweight, 52' 300 h&h, push feed 7x57 and 6.5x55, 4 New Haven classics, SC Extreme Weather and SC FW Deluxe. NO ISSUES. I would still buy kimbers, but only thier 1911s. Interesting - I would buy their rifles but NOT their 1911. Same here. The pre series 2 1911's......yes. But current production? No.
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BobinNH, RinB - Thanks again for an interesting reference !
I'll be digging for the May 1980 issue of Rifle (#69), to explore that further.
338 I think that's the one!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Where did this train go?
I am using a .280AI as my go to with 160gr Accubonds and Deepcurls interchangeably. They shoot the same relative FPS and have the same POI.
3000fps isn't easy to sniff at and I can stuff 5 in the magazine of the Rem700 it's on. rembo twisted IT together, but I dumped the steel into an original McMillan KS.
The 6.5 Rem Mag is squeezing into its field time, but AI has taken more game so far.....
AF
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3000fps isn't easy to sniff at and I can stuff 5 in the magazine of the Rem700 it's on.
but I dumped the steel into an original McMillan KS.
In spite of the fact that I haven't really seen the need to AI any of my 280's, that metal/stock/cartridge combo with whatever 160 grainer spins your prop, is just about perfect, IMO. MM
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RD I am pretty sure that M70's used the same contours for standard and magnum chamberings, things like FW's and 375 H&H's excepted. Do you think that the factories want to, in general, maintain a certain shank diameter and shank length for say magnum rounds that are based on H&H rounds and perhaps this is why mag contoured barrels are heavier than non-magnum chambered rounds ? Maybe I wasn't stating my observations clearly enough as I don't believe RinB has responded to my question. I am of the opinion that the added weight manufacturers leave on a magnum rifle is intended to manage recoil making a more saleable rifle for the general public. Shod
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Shod in the case of 300 and 338 etc you are right....but in the case of the 7 RM some contours are just too heavy. The cartridge is not a real big magnum,does not gin up a lot of recoil(IME about like a 30/06. And a slightly lighter contour makes the rifle balance better,handle snappier,and saves some weight. I shot a couple the other day with #2 contours and full house loads....the things did not even lift off the bags.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I am working with a 280AI at the moment with a 22" barrel. I will post some load development work over the next few weeks. Still forming cases at present and the loading is just beginning.
Starting with 160gn Accubond's, 150gn Partitions and Ballistic tips, 145gn LRX's 110gn and 120gn TSX's, 154gn Hornady's, 140gn Woodleight's and whatever else I can find on the bench.
It will be easy to add about 25fps per inch to suit your preferences.
John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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