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Another Montana thread, why not? I recently received a second-hand Montana in, you guessed it, 308. All the trick moves have been applied with the exception of bedding. I shot it for the first time this morning with a pet load. I have a tendency to put a bunch of shots in a group so that you can see what the heck is going on. The lower group was the first, and with the action screws at 65 in/lbs. It immediately started walking horizontally, seven shots was enough. My experience has been that bedding problems manifest themselves with more torque. I re-torqued to 45 in/lbs, flipped the target, and made a 4 click left adjustment. 10 shots were fired in rapid succession, no barrel cooling or any crap like that. 45 in/lbs produced an encouraging, more consistent group. I have hopes that a bedding job will settle it down even more. Stay tuned! ![[Linked Image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RiF95EAnIiY/VFJEJh-rn0I/AAAAAAAACWM/18smqTeLSkc/w680-h819-no/IMG_0534.jpg)
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Did you check it for repeat-ability? If you re-torque to 65 will it begin to walk again or was that not tested? Just curious.
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I have a feeling I'm gonna want that rifle back.
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I have a feeling you might be right
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Might be worth reading before you start slinging goop. Gooping a Montucky.
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Bedding is done. JB Weld matches! Mixed it last night around 7:30, cleaned up the overrun with toothpicks at 10:30. Popped it out and cleaned up at 5:30 AM this morning. I'll let it cure another day and ring out another 10 tomorrow. I put several layers of tape on the bottom of the lug only. Front, back, and sides are tight. ![[Linked Image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Q3s6Xa7t9tE/VFNwv-oz3QI/AAAAAAAACYU/yEBH1qpXQac/w626-h835-no/IMG_0537.jpg)
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Great looking bedding job.
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Have a buddies Montana 300 WM sitting in bedding right now. Be curious to see how the different torque amounts effect yours. This is the first Montana I've went through and didn't find any mag binding, or the front Talley screw bottoming out. Only thing I found that I didn't like was the barrel sat a tad off center. A little relief in the stock and some centering tape at the forend will hopefully take care of that.
That's a great looking bedding job. I'll be following your thread to see how it works out for you. A 308 Montana sure is tempting to me!
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Just ordered a 84L. Should be here next week so I am also curious as to your torque amounts as well.
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Did you bed the tang also? I would and did on my Montana and what I found is that I simply hand tighten as tight as possible and not worry about it. I don't measure torque and the rifle shoots great. in my opinion, when you combine the high quality stock of the Montana with great bedding material (I use Devcon 10110 mostly) compression issues simply vanish. YMMV and it looks like you are off to a good start but I would give the tang a good once over before you bolt it back up.
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Bedding didn't yield any better results. ![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-leMgp-MYHII/VFYwGRornQI/AAAAAAAACZk/Dvn2byHxZ4Q/w531-h835-no/photo%2B%286%29.JPG)
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The tang bedding was already clean, smooth, good contact. I did a dial test on the bedding and its spot on, no stress.
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I'd like to see a three shot group. If 1-2-3 all hit POA, you are in the high cotton.
Last edited by Micro_Groove; 11/02/14.
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Seriously? Why? It could be any combination of the above.
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I edited my post as to why. How many times are you gonna pop off more than three rounds in a light weight hunting rifle?
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It's hard to tell by the target and pic; what's the 10 shot group measure?
I enjoy handguns and I really like shotguns,...but I love rifles!
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10 shots is the best indicator of where the first three will land on any given day. Overlay your various "cold" three shots groups and the answer you will get is in the 10 shot group.
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SAS, the 10 shot group in top/first pic is about 1.75". The bottom/bedded pic is a little over 2"
Five shots at 350 yards yielded roughly the same results, about 1.5 - 1.75 MOA, roughly measured with my hand (about 6").
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On the positive side, the group is still "round". I'd not be surprised if you find a load that would do 1 1/2" or better for 10 shots in succession.
From your posts on here, I know you've had some nice stuff! I don't think the factory Kimber barrels are on par with the really good ones...
10 in an inch with a factory Kimber would be the exception, not the norm in my opinion. I'd play around with different loads until you find nirvana.
I enjoy handguns and I really like shotguns,...but I love rifles!
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You are doing it all wrong. You are supposed to shoot 10 3 shot groups, measure and photograph the best group, and get on the internet and claim the rifle does that "all day long".
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You are doing it all wrong. You are supposed to shoot 10 3 shot groups, measure and photograph the best group, and get on the internet and claim the rifle does that "all day long". ....when you do your part. David
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SAS, the results are exactly what I expected. I am neither excited nor disappointed. I would have been thrilled with 1.5 MOA. I agree with you, round groups are more better!
I'm sure tweaking loads will shrink it. I might run a group of 175 smk's just for kicks.
In its current form it will make a fine MPBR rig which in reality is what 5 lb rifle is designed for.
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10 shots is the best indicator of where the first three will land on any given day. Overlay your various "cold" three shots groups and the answer you will get is in the 10 shot group. Except you've got all that heat from your ten round burst.
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Try one shot a day over 10 days if you have a home range. That will be the best indicator as to what both you and the rifle can do on any given day.
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If you are interested in playing some more, try some Tubbs Final Finish. Not necessarily the whole kit, just enough to really even out the barrel. I've found it to make a measurable difference on a few rifles. If nothing else it will clean up easier.
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Slap some 178 A-Maxes in there and see what it does!
How does the crown look?? If I recall correctly, I didn't see anything wrong with it.
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If it won't group 45gr R15 behind a 155gr Scenar, I'd be surprised if it grouped anything...
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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...just wondering... I recently bought a .308 suppressor and have been shooting it on a .308 Savage Hog Hunter. Three rapid shots with or without the suppressor will run in the .5-.75 area. In looking around for a lighter weight rifle for hunting came across the Kimber Adirondack with a 18" barrel...just perfect for what I am looking for...until I read the specs..a 1-12 twist barrel.
I called Kimber and spoke to one of the tecs about why they were using a 1-12 when most others manufacturers were using 1-10...especially on a threaded barrel gun that one could use subsonic ammo and a suppressor the 1-12 isn't going to do very well with a 190-220 grain bullet at slow speed. Apparently no one at Kimber ever considered that aspect as they are planning a muzzlebrake for the gun...
So what say you...I have had lots of .308s from Remington, Ruger, TC and Savage and all have had 1-10 barrels which shot beyond great. Does anyone think that maybe a 1-10 would help with the Kimbers accuracy...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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I edited my post as to why. How many times are you gonna pop off more than three rounds in a light weight hunting rifle? MG, The ten shots don't necessarily have to be from a hot barrel. You can shoot them as three separate 3-shot groups, letting the barrel cool between each group and the results will largely be the same as what Clint is showing. Clint can chime in here, but I bet the first three out of the 10 he is showing didn't land in a little bitty group either. A single 3-shot group just doesn't provide enough statistical data to be an accurate predictor of where the next shot is going to land. If you'll take your favorite rig and load and shoot three or more 3-shot groups at the same point of aim, letting the barrel cool between each group, you'll see what I'm talking about. You won't be able to blame the results on barrel heat either� John
Last edited by Hondo64d; 11/02/14.
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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...just wondering... I recently bought a .308 suppressor and have been shooting it on a .308 Savage Hog Hunter. Three rapid shots with or without the suppressor will run in the .5-.75 area. In looking around for a lighter weight rifle for hunting came across the Kimber Adirondack with a 18" barrel...just perfect for what I am looking for...until I read the specs..a 1-12 twist barrel.
I called Kimber and spoke to one of the tecs about why they were using a 1-12 when most others manufacturers were using 1-10...especially on a threaded barrel gun that one could use subsonic ammo and a suppressor the 1-12 isn't going to do very well with a 190-220 grain bullet at slow speed. Apparently no one at Kimber ever considered that aspect as they are planning a muzzlebrake for the gun...
So what say you...I have had lots of .308s from Remington, Ruger, TC and Savage and all have had 1-10 barrels which shot beyond great. Does anyone think that maybe a 1-10 would help with the Kimbers accuracy...
Bob No idea....but for your application, I'd just get a Ruber American Predator with the 18" barrel. Or if you're planning to shoot a lot of subsonic, wait for the Ruber American Ranch 300 BKT with the 16+" barrel.
Last edited by 257heaven; 11/02/14.
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So what say you...I have had lots of .308s from Remington, Ruger, TC and Savage and all have had 1-10 barrels which shot beyond great. Does anyone think that maybe a 1-10 would help with the Kimbers accuracy...
Bob Would only help with the VLD type bullets heavier than 178gr. John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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SAS, the results are exactly what I expected. I am neither excited nor disappointed. I would have been thrilled with 1.5 MOA. I agree with you, round groups are more better!
I'm sure tweaking loads will shrink it. I might run a group of 175 smk's just for kicks.
In its current form it will make a fine MPBR rig which in reality is what 5 lb rifle is designed for. Clint....What bullet were you using for the groups?? I don't think I saw that info.
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Try one shot a day over 10 days if you have a home range. That will be the best indicator as to what both you and the rifle can do on any given day. Done it, same results. Heat will expound upon other problems, but as SAS implied, nice round groups are a good indication that everything is right.
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Slap some 178 A-Maxes in there and see what it does!
How does the crown look?? If I recall correctly, I didn't see anything wrong with it.
Crown looks good. The package in general looks good. Grouping isn't bad. I suspect a whole bunch of rifles would be worse. The groups were RL15 & 155 Scenar.
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If it won't group 45gr R15 behind a 155gr Scenar, I'd be surprised if it grouped anything...
John RL15 and the 155 Scenar or 175 SMK tell the tale.
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Clint can chime in here, but I bet the first three out of the 10 he is showing didn't land in a little bitty group either. On one group the first thee were tight, less than .5". On the other they were more like an inch. Three is usually unpredictable. Don't get me wrong, you can read sign, such as thee stacked on top of each other. That was not the case here.
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Shooting 10 shot groups in a Montana does not make much sense to me.
Tanner
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Shooting 10 shot groups in a Montana does not make much sense to me.
Tanner Yawl are gonna make me shoot three groups of three shots with a single shot following to make a total of 10, then overlay them, just to prove 10 in succession gives the same answer. As you can tell, I don't mind putting numerous rounds on paper. I've done 3 shots and overlayed them more than once. I now know that I can cut to the chase. I've found 10 shot groups to be a very good indication of where the bullet is routinely going to land. I've found it doesnt make a difference in the combined group size if one round is fired at a time, 3 rounds, 5 rounds, or 10 rounds, given a rifle with no stress issues.
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2 things. First, if that's the only combo you have tried you need to keep going. Second, you shhoting off a rest? Position the rest closer to the mag box.
Try some 165gr NBT's or Horn Interlockts.
Also, how fast are you "rapid firing" these groups of yours. What else if anything have you tried with your loads? Still have room in the box?
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10 shots is the best indicator of where the first three will land on any given day. Overlay your various "cold" three shots groups and the answer you will get is in the 10 shot group. Very true. Reminds me of a story Finn Aagaard did in American Rifleman on a Jarrett built rifle, a .280 Ackley Imp. Not knocking Jarrett rifles, but since names and statements were made in the article I'll state them here. The rifle was advertised as 3 shots in a half MOA, and in no case anything over 1 MOA acceptable. (I'm assuming for 3 shots). The test rifle was built on a Rem 700 action, 22" Schneider bbl, McMillan stock & Leupold 2.5-8x supplied by the author. The 3 shot test groups shot by the builder averaged .358", the authors test groups averaged just under .400" with the same load. The thing I liked about Aagaard's writing was he wasn't afraid to call it as he saw it. Jarrett made the statement that the .280 AI can meet and even exceed the velocities of the 7mm Rem Mag. Finn plainly stated "This is not so. The 280 Ackley is nothing but a .280 Rem blown out to less taper and a steeper shoulder... and obtain possibly 50 fps greater velocity, period." Anyway, he fired two composite groups using the same backer to show the true consistency. One backer had 82 shots in 3.189", the other 89 shots in 3.375". This is a true measure of a rifle's capability. A half MOA capable rifle with real world 3 MOA reliability.
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I also forgot to add that being really light does make them finicky off the bench in my experience. Without any meaningful barrel weight, they are 'lively' on the bench. Not an issue when shooting from the field, but mine does not like things like free recoil off a bipod. A bag under the mag and one under the butt of the stock and shoot just like off hand and things tighten up nicely.
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RL15 / 175 SMK Three groups of three shots followed by a single shot. Barrel allowed to completely cool between groups. High 40's - low 50's, it didn't take too long but gave it generous time. What I found interesting, though not surprising (nothing surprises me, thats why I shoot a 10 shot group) is that shots 4-10 are completely inside the first three shot group. Also, 8,9,10, would measure in the .1's if not less. ![[Linked Image]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LudblJl6U0M/VFZ1qAg1gaI/AAAAAAAACaU/1vKjUuT1MI0/w766-h835-no/photo%2B%287%29.JPG)
Last edited by ctsmith; 11/02/14.
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I like 10 shot groups and having a high degree of confidence of what you can hit myself. Good illustration ct.
Empirical results rule!
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Anyway, he fired two composite groups using the same backer to show the true consistency.
One backer had 82 shots in 3.189", the other 89 shots in 3.375".
This is a true measure of a rifle's capability. A half MOA capable rifle with real world 3 MOA reliability. I'm guessing this was for various loads, not 80 some shots of the same load, right?
Empirical results rule!
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RL15 / 175 SMK Three groups of three shots followed by a single shot. Barrel allowed to completely cool between groups. High 40's - low 50's, it didn't take too long but gave it generous time. What I found interesting, though not surprising (nothing surprises me, thats why I shoot a 10 shot group) is that shots 4-10 are completely inside the first three shot group. Also, 8,9,10, would measure in the .1's if not less. It's shooting as well as most rifles would shoot, picked internet targets aside. It's plenty accurate for a big game rifle.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 11/02/14.
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Shooting 10 shot groups in a Montana does not make much sense to me.
Tanner Yawl are gonna make me shoot three groups of three shots with a single shot following to make a total of 10, then overlay them, just to prove 10 in succession gives the same answer. As you can tell, I don't mind putting numerous rounds on paper. I've done 3 shots and overlayed them more than once. I now know that I can cut to the chase. I've found 10 shot groups to be a very good indication of where the bullet is routinely going to land. I've found it doesnt make a difference in the group size if one round is fired at a time, 3 rounds, 5 rounds, or 10 rounds, given a rifle with no stress issues. I understand what you're saying and agree with the process, but I do think results might just be tainted a bit firing 10 shots in a row from a light rifle like that. But that little rig does seem to be shooting very well! I'm loving my 308 Montana and 155 Scenars. Tanner
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RH, Agree on both points!
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Tanner, The little rig will it done for sure. Let me come up there for testing. You take me on the hill in your neck of the woods and we'll see if it will close the deal. You in?  Headed for a tree with a starvation stick. I'll check in after dark.
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Shooting 10 shot groups in a Montana does not make much sense to me.
Tanner Yawl are gonna make me shoot three groups of three shots with a single shot following to make a total of 10, then overlay them, just to prove 10 in succession gives the same answer. As you can tell, I don't mind putting numerous rounds on paper. I've done 3 shots and overlayed them more than once. I now know that I can cut to the chase. I've found 10 shot groups to be a very good indication of where the bullet is routinely going to land. I've found it doesnt make a difference in the group size if one round is fired at a time, 3 rounds, 5 rounds, or 10 rounds, given a rifle with no stress issues. I understand what you're saying and agree with the process, but I do think results might just be tainted a bit firing 10 shots in a row from a light rifle like that. But that little rig does seem to be shooting very well! I'm loving my 308 Montana and 155 Scenars. Tanner Tanner, You see the pic? Clint said he let the barrel cool completely between each group. John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I just want my 84L to get here so I can be disappointed like the rest of you fuggers...
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Shooting 10 shot groups in a Montana does not make much sense to me.
Tanner Yawl are gonna make me shoot three groups of three shots with a single shot following to make a total of 10, then overlay them, just to prove 10 in succession gives the same answer. As you can tell, I don't mind putting numerous rounds on paper. I've done 3 shots and overlayed them more than once. I now know that I can cut to the chase. I've found 10 shot groups to be a very good indication of where the bullet is routinely going to land. I've found it doesnt make a difference in the group size if one round is fired at a time, 3 rounds, 5 rounds, or 10 rounds, given a rifle with no stress issues. I understand what you're saying and agree with the process, but I do think results might just be tainted a bit firing 10 shots in a row from a light rifle like that. But that little rig does seem to be shooting very well! I'm loving my 308 Montana and 155 Scenars. Tanner Tanner, You see the pic? Clint said he let the barrel cool completely between each group. John Yeah John, I did see that. I'm just referencing the initial post with the rapid succession 10 shot group. Tanner
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Anyway, he fired two composite groups using the same backer to show the true consistency.
One backer had 82 shots in 3.189", the other 89 shots in 3.375".
This is a true measure of a rifle's capability. A half MOA capable rifle with real world 3 MOA reliability. I'm guessing this was for various loads, not 80 some shots of the same load, right? From the article I was under the impression it was 171 rounds fired of the same load over a period of days if not weeks, at two separate targets.
"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
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Funny , I recently bought a 84l in 06 off a guy who couldn't get it to shoot. I did all the kimber voodoo on it (after shooting it factory stock)and the only thing it will shoot decently and consistently is 155gr Scenars. Beautiful rifle , kinda disappointing how finicky it is. I have a few other mountain rifles that will shoot better than MY 84l , but again I do like the weight and feel of the 84l. Im sure whatever I shoot with it wont be disappointed in the groups . Minute of dead [bleep] is good enough for a mountain rifle I guess. 
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Funny , I recently bought a 84l in 06 off a guy who couldn't get it to shoot. I did all the kimber voodoo on it (after shooting it factory stock)and the only thing it will shoot decently and consistently is 155gr Scenars. Beautiful rifle , kinda disappointing how finicky it is. I have a few other mountain rifles that will shoot better than MY 84l , but again I do like the weight and feel of the 84l. Im sure whatever I shoot with it wont be disappointed in the groups . Minute of dead [bleep] is good enough for a mountain rifle I guess. What bullets did you try and how bad is bad?
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1.75 to 3.5 moa at 100M , Tried the following ,
Bergers (with ladder test)
155 VLd hunting
168 vld hunting
168 target hybrid
165 game kings
165 speer
180 Accubond
185 VLD Hunting
168 AMAX
Ballistic tips(cant remember the weight) which is ok imo cause they are cape destroyers)
Powders:
all the usual 06 powders
wound up with:
155 gr scenars
50.5 gr of Varget
3.235 OAL
.478 5 shot group
1.Full length tight bed (marine tex)
2.mag box shortened
3.mag box cut out lengthened
4.front scope base screw shortened
5.I also replaced the follower spring with one off a L/A adl rem 700 spring because my rifle wouldnt pick up the second round with the kimber spring in there.
6.Torqued action screws to 45 in lbs.
I have no doubt that others have had better luck and Im not bashing Kimbers , as I said I like the rifle.
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No wonder...... You didn't shoot any Partitions......
Just teasing. Thanks for the info.
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Tanner,
Notice that there wasn't much difference in group size between the first groups and the one where he let the barrel cool every three shots? I no longer believe its barrel heat that causes groups to open up, but rather that 3 shots is just not a big enough sample to be an accurate indicator of where the next shot is going to go. Same thing if you have a series of successive small groups that hit at slightly different POIs. They are just part of a larger group that is a more realistic indicator of what a rifle will do.
I do tend to not rattle off ten shots at once most times, but that's more to prolong the throat more than anything else.
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I just want my 84L to get here so I can be disappointed like the rest of you fuggers... What Caliber? My 280ai hasn't had anything done, other than lighting the trigger. Screws torqued to 45lbs and it shoots everything well and most things very well. Factory 280 loads also have shot well. Likes to be held tight, but isn't as picky as my faux ti on how it's held.
Life is just one damned thing after another
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I no longer believe its barrel heat that causes groups to open up, but rather that 3 shots is just not a big enough sample to be an accurate indicator of where the next shot is going to go.
Yep!
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If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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1.75 to 3.5 moa at 100M , Tried the following ,
Bergers (with ladder test)
155 VLd hunting
168 vld hunting
168 target hybrid
165 game kings
165 speer
180 Accubond
185 VLD Hunting
168 AMAX
Ballistic tips(cant remember the weight) which is ok imo cause they are cape destroyers)
Powders:
all the usual 06 powders
wound up with:
155 gr scenars
50.5 gr of Varget
3.235 OAL
.478 5 shot group
1.Full length tight bed (marine tex)
2.mag box shortened
3.mag box cut out lengthened
4.front scope base screw shortened
5.I also replaced the follower spring with one off a L/A adl rem 700 spring because my rifle wouldnt pick up the second round with the kimber spring in there.
6.Torqued action screws to 45 in lbs.
I have no doubt that others have had better luck and Im not bashing Kimbers , as I said I like the rifle.
What about some nice ping pong ball ballistics 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tips?
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I no longer believe its barrel heat that causes groups to open up, but rather that 3 shots is just not a big enough sample to be an accurate indicator of where the next shot is going to go.
Yep! I think there's a lot of merit in that. I'm going to shoot a few 3 shot groups on the same target with my 308 Montana and see what I come up with. I'd be pretty pleased if the entire group looked similar to CT's. Tanner
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I no longer believe its barrel heat that causes groups to open up, but rather that 3 shots is just not a big enough sample to be an accurate indicator of where the next shot is going to go.
Yep! I think there's a lot of merit in that. I'm going to shoot a few 3 shot groups on the same target with my 308 Montana and see what I come up with. I'd be pretty pleased if the entire group looked similar to CT's. Tanner I try and use the exact same target every time I go out shooting. I start off each session with a 3 shot group. I then check the combined group size of a few sessions to determine shift in point of impact. Pieter
Last edited by m77; 11/03/14.
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I bought a 84L Montana in 270 as well. But I am sending it off to turn it into a 338-06 before I even shoot it lest someone think I own anything 270.
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RL15 / 175 SMK Three groups of three shots followed by a single shot. Barrel allowed to completely cool between groups. High 40's - low 50's, it didn't take too long but gave it generous time. What I found interesting, though not surprising (nothing surprises me, thats why I shoot a 10 shot group) is that shots 4-10 are completely inside the first three shot group. Also, 8,9,10, would measure in the .1's if not less. How far off the lands?
I enjoy handguns and I really like shotguns,...but I love rifles!
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Max mag length. I didn't measure the lands but polished the bullet to verify that it wasn't into them. 2.810 OAL.
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I bought a 84L Montana in 270 as well. But I am sending it off to turn it into a 338-06 before I even shoot it lest someone think I own anything 270. Luke, Extremely wise decision! You don't want the anti .270 crowd scoffing at you! Everybody knows a 140 Accubond with a BC of .496 is barely able to make it past 100 yards!  The Campfire disdain for 270's keeps the price of rifles and components low and I am good with that. Curious to see how the 338-06 turns out. Sounds sweet. Andy
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I bought a 84L Montana in 270 as well. But I am sending it off to turn it into a 338-06 before I even shoot it lest someone think I own anything 270. VERY interested in the 338-06. Been considering doing the exact same thing. I have a 338-06, but would prefer the 84L rifle. Let us know how it turns out. What barrel length/weight are you going with?
Last edited by prm; 11/03/14.
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Hondo and CT,
Are 100% spot on. The only thing barrel heat does is show you of there is stress in the system that needs to be fixed. Groups grow when you fire more than 3 rounds because 3 rounds aren't a "group". People use 3 rounds because they can lie to themselves. The rifles don't know whether it's the first round or the 15th. 10 rounds offer a good idea of where any one round will bland. There is no such thing as a "cold bore" shot. A sub 2 MOA 308Win Montana is about as good or better than what most will do.
Cut the bs, shoot ten and know what the rifle will do.
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Your testing does not have much to do with a hunting rifle! If it's a target rifle requiring multiple shots of course we test them that way. If your shooting was at 100 yards? Then the groups were ok for a hunting rifle. I have found that the first shot from a hunting rifles cold barrel is most effective in getting game. I fire one shot record it's impact and then fire another if wanted. I try to hunt that rifle with the barrel in the tested condition. Here is a target fired with my Kimber Montana 308! ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/160x213q90/r/138/003oep.jpg)
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Here we go again! 
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Don,
10 shots has EVERYTHING to do with a hunting rifle. Take the rifle you mentioned above and fire one shot at the same POA 10 days in a row. The "group" ain't gonna be as small as what you show in the pic above. 2 shots is not enough statistical data to show anything.
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I have found that the first shot from a hunting rifles cold barrel is most effective in getting game.
Savage, Do you think that if I shoot 10 shots, hours apart, or days apart, on a cold bore, that I will get results different than the 10 consecutive shots groups? I have done it and the answer is it makes no difference. The combined results will be the same whether its one shot, three shots, five shots, or 10 shots. Are you saying that my results aren't typical?
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I am going to the range to shoot right now. The 270 WSM Montana is shooting best, the 06 custom is my pet and the 7mm WSM is in progress.  ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/160x213q90/r/11/jqn9.jpg)
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of course, he is a moron, surprised he hasnt shown up in the Fury thread to claim all of us that said good things about the German tanks and tank destroyers are Nazi sympathizers like he normally does....the guy has the same day of experience over and over and over again for decades and never learns a damn thing....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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I have found that the first shot from a hunting rifles cold barrel is most effective in getting game.
Savage, Do you think that if I shoot 10 shots, hours apart, or days apart, on a cold bore, that I will get results different than the 10 consecutive shots groups? I have done it and the answer is it makes no difference. The combined results will be the same whether its one shot, three shots, five shots, or 10 shots. Are you saying that my results aren't typical? IMHO and tell me if I'm not correct. There would be a difference if there were issued caused or revealed by barrel heat.
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RH, you are correct. Heat will show stress which will open up groups.
I'll bet that the "heat on a light barrel is bad" mentality stems from the era when most all rifles were unbedded and wood stocked.
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RH, you are correct. Heat will show stress which will open up groups.
I'll bet that the "heat on a light barrel is bad" mentality stems from the era when most all rifles were unbedded and wood stocked. Let me ask you this. Is it possible that such stresses would be completely repeatable with just 2-3 cold barrel shots, the first shots always being very close to the same place until the group opened up and started wondering around from heat, or would it be more likely to always shoot a pattern of X MOA size, shots landing anywhere within that area from first to last? I shot my 7mm-08 Montana ten shots over 10 days at close to 200 yards prone off a pack and got roughly 2.5" with factory ammo. Some of it was the gun and some me. I hope to improve that with hand loaded ammo and more trigger time.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 11/03/14.
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Depends on whether the barrel is jacked up. If the barrel is crap and has stress than it will "walk" and groups will string in a line consistently. Very few do this. What really is going on is that "groups" get bigger as you shoot more rounds (at least to a certain number, and then the group stays the same), and 5 or 10 round groups are bigger than 3.
Think about what size dot at 100 yards that you know without a doubt that on demand you would hit with every single round fired. Hint - it ain't a half inch dot.
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This 30-06 custom was right on! It put the first shot 2" high at 200 yds. Right where I want it! From a cold fouled barrel. The way I will hunt with it.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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If you do that every day for the next nine days, how big will the group be?
I suppose it's as likely to hit the target as it is anything else�
And you should read and comprehend the whole thread Don before commenting� Just saying'...
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I have shot a few good 3 shot groups before on the same paper target and been pleased, until I realized that if I laid the targets over one another the group was only decent.
I've seen some impressive 10 shot groups put up by varmint guns and heavy tactical rigs, but not many by factory sporters. I still hunt with them.
Now with even more aplomb
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What the hell difference does all this make in reality? For 99% of rifles at 99.9% of ranges anyone would consider reasonable it doesn't make a lick of difference.
I took a cow elk a week or two ago, my longest shot to date on five elk and for that matter on 11-12 elk hunts I've been a part of.
A whopping 125 yards, maybe a touch further. And the kicker is, my CDS had spun up 6 clicks and sure wasn't shooting to the same spot where I sighted it in at.
Guess what, elk didn't know or care and tasted mighty good last night on my dinner plate.
Life is just one damned thing after another
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That's the funny thing about this accuracy stuff. We spend all sorts of time and money on it, and it's fun to pursue. But when it comes right down to it one really doesn't need much in the way of intrinsic accuracy for a big game hunting rifle.
Give me a 2 MOA rifle that doesn't lose zero, and I might not be completely happy, but I'll sure fill a freezer every year. Funny thing is, many of our hunting rifles are a lot closer to consistent 2 MOA shooters than <MOA if folks would be honest with themselves.
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Some shoot further than 125yds and some targets are smaller than an elk's vitals. No jab there.
A smallish hog or coyote at 300yds is a bit more difficult target. I really prefer that my general-purpose big game rifles to be able to hit a 1.5MOA circle at 300 and 400yds. But yes, 90% of the time it is really not necessary for most of us.
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All I know is if I could step out in my backyard and shoot.....I'd be shooting a LOT! Whether anybody else gave two schitts or not.....I'd be shooting.
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All I know is if I could step out in my backyard and shoot.....I'd be shooting a LOT! Whether anybody else gave two schitts or not.....I'd be shooting.
Me too. I have to drive about 20 minutes to my camp, but at least it goes to 400yds and nobody bothers me. Would be awesome to load up a few rounds, step outside in your pajamas, and shoot a group or two before breakfast.....
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I edited my post as to why. How many times are you gonna pop off more than three rounds in a light weight hunting rifle? Bingo..... But now that I can see your 3 shot groups it looks to me it is doing the dreaded 2 in and 1 out.
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All I know is if I could step out in my backyard and shoot.....I'd be shooting a LOT! Whether anybody else gave two schitts or not.....I'd be shooting.
Me too. I have to drive about 20 minutes to my camp, but at least it goes to 400yds and nobody bothers me. Would be awesome to load up a few rounds, step outside in your pajamas, and shoot a group or two before breakfast..... My "out my front door" range has resulted in me making significant investments in brass, powder, primers, and lead.... 
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Well, here's 7 on the same dot anyways. I'll shoot the same one next time out, didn't have much time tonight. There are 4 right in the red, and the 3 on the right were all shot tonight. I'm interested to see if the 3 on the right are due to a scope error, me canting the scope/shooting poorly, or if they are just part of the group as Clint has said. Either way I'm pretty happy with a lightweight rifle shooting this way. 155 Scenars over IMR-4064 are producing 2860fps. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m545/Tanner_Coulter/IMG_0934_zps0ad3f946.jpg) Tanner
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For those shooting groups or single shots on multiple days, either leave your target up or use a level or a hand drawn line to make sure your target is in the same relative position each time. Imagine shooting a nice tight 1/2" three shot group 2" high. Now turn the paper a 180 degrees and shoot another 1/2" three shot group. What might have been a nice six shot 1/2" groups is now a lousy 4" group. It wouldn't be as noticeable if you are sighted in "dead on" but it could still make a difference. Just something some people don't take into account and one of the things I always wander about when people talk of "overlaying" targets.
Dave.
Those who are always shooting off at the mouth usually aren't shooting straight. Build a man a fire and he’ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life. www.wvcdl.org
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Tanner, nice work. Regardless of the answer, knowledge will be gained that only comes by bullets flying down range, and for me paper enlightens. Your setup has the ingredients to be sound, I doubt it is you canting the rifle, there is a possibility that it is sensitive to how you are resting it, but my bet is that the three is part of the group. We shall see.
When you get done with this 10 shot string rattle off 10 consecutive and see what happens.
Jay, a convenient range makes reloading laborsome, but I am not complaining. When do you want me to come shoot that buck?
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Well, here's 7 on the same dot anyways. I'll shoot the same one next time out, didn't have much time tonight. There are 4 right in the red, and the 3 on the right were all shot tonight. I'm interested to see if the 3 on the right are due to a scope error, me canting the scope/shooting poorly, or if they are just part of the group as Clint has said. Either way I'm pretty happy with a lightweight rifle shooting this way. 155 Scenars over IMR-4064 are producing 2860fps. Tanner Did you shoot all 7 together or the 4 and then the 3? If the latter, I'm guessing there was a small technique difference such as the cheek weld, or the rifle sitting in bag a little differently. Result on game would be the same though!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For those shooting groups or single shots on multiple days, either leave your target up or use a level or a hand drawn line to make sure your target is in the same relative position each time. Imagine shooting a nice tight 1/2" three shot group 2" high. Now turn the paper a 180 degrees and shoot another 1/2" three shot group. What might have been a nice six shot 1/2" groups is now a lousy 4" group. It wouldn't be as noticeable if you are sighted in "dead on" but it could still make a difference. Just something some people don't take into account and one of the things I always wander about when people talk of "overlaying" targets.
Dave. I use targets with precise grid lines, and I hang them using a level.
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Well, here's 7 on the same dot anyways. I'll shoot the same one next time out, didn't have much time tonight. There are 4 right in the red, and the 3 on the right were all shot tonight. I'm interested to see if the 3 on the right are due to a scope error, me canting the scope/shooting poorly, or if they are just part of the group as Clint has said. Either way I'm pretty happy with a lightweight rifle shooting this way. 155 Scenars over IMR-4064 are producing 2860fps. Tanner Did you shoot all 7 together or the 4 and then the 3? If the latter, I'm guessing there was a small technique difference such as the cheek weld, or the rifle sitting in bag a little differently. Result on game would be the same though! prm, I did fire 3 using soft bags, and the 4 tonight were off of a bipod using a rear bag. I'm sure that had something to do with it. Tanner
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Tanner,
What does your set up weigh?
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Tanner,
What ring height are you using with your SWFA 3-9?
Thanks,
David
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The rig as pictured weighs 6.6#, with no sling or rounds.
David,
I'm using Lows. They're perfect on this rig.
Tanner
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....
Jay, a convenient range makes reloading laborsome, but I am not complaining. When do you want me to come shoot that buck?
What will work for you? Another memember is coming to hunt from 12/12-12/15 and I have a friend coming sometime in Jan but hasn't set a date yet. More than enough room even if dates overlap. Just let me know when you can make it. The Montana will work great for you...bring that poor little Beanland for me to use.
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The rig as pictured weighs 6.6#, with no sling or rounds.
David,
I'm using Lows. They're perfect on this rig.
Tanner Thanks! I've been seriously thinking of giving that set-up a try on my 7mm-08 Montana. It's too close to trigger pulling time to start playing around swapping scopes, but after the season I'm going to pul my SS 3-9 off my 6.5CM and try it. David
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I'm sure we'll be seeing pictures of that Montana next to a dead CO Mulie soon enough...grin. Last time I talked to him he was still giddy as a 3 peckered puppy over his 308 slinging the 155s. As he should be... Had a chance to finish up the 300 WM that I was toying with. It's now shooting factory Federal ammo around an inch, surely better than where it started. When I get the chance to tune some handloads, I'll have to put it through the paces. Edit: Forgot to mention... I shot 3 different 3 shot groups with torque settings at 65in lbs, 55in lbs, and 45in lbs. Not much difference in results between 45-55, but seemed to open up torqued down to 65in lbs. I backed it down to 55 and that's where I'll let it be for now.
Last edited by joshf303; 11/07/14.
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aheider, I know this is only a 3 shot group but this is what my new Kimber Montana 270 did this morning shooting Nosler Ammo 130gr accubonds. I was using a Swaro Z3 3-10x42 in Talley's, 3/4 inch isn't too bad. ![[Linked Image]](http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab290/deputydad3/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-11/F3561AE7-DEDD-4CB8-B809-42B30AB14B0A_zps1fwvnx9l.jpg)
Roll Tide Roll, now lets go hunting!!!
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Tanner, nice to see you came over to the .308 dark side.
Ya'll might talk me into a Montana yet ...
Uber Demanding Rifle Aficionado
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aheider, I know this is only a 3 shot group but this is what my new Kimber Montana 270 did this morning shooting Nosler Ammo 130gr accubonds. I was using a Swaro Z3 3-10x42 in Talley's, 3/4 inch isn't too bad. If mine will do the same I will be a happy camper! Thanks for the report.
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aheider, I know this is only a 3 shot group but this is what my new Kimber Montana 270 did this morning shooting Nosler Ammo 130gr accubonds. I was using a Swaro Z3 3-10x42 in Talley's, 3/4 inch isn't too bad. I've got a 7mm-08 84M but I would like a 270 84L also. Can you tell me what yours weighs all up? Have you ever handled the 84M? If so what strikes you as different in the feel of both?
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On the bathroom scale it shows 7lb, with a sling and scope cover in place. I also have an 84m Montana in both 308 and 7-08 and truth be told other than a little more forward weight from the 24" barrel on the 270, which I like a little better, they feel about equal.
Roll Tide Roll, now lets go hunting!!!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Interesting thread. Just prior to my grizzly hunt in 2011 I took my 338-06 (225 gr AB's) out one last time and shot these three groups with a bit of barrel cool down between each. When I get home I will do a bit of measuring to see what the composite nine would look like. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/010.jpg)
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Ed, thats looking darn good.
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aheider, I know this is only a 3 shot group but this is what my new Kimber Montana 270 did this morning shooting Nosler Ammo 130gr accubonds. I was using a Swaro Z3 3-10x42 in Talley's, 3/4 inch isn't too bad. I've got a 7mm-08 84M but I would like a 270 84L also. Can you tell me what yours weighs all up? Have you ever handled the 84M? If so what strikes you as different in the feel of both? Here is a pic of my 270 84L right after I got it out of the box. I weighed it, took the barreled action out of the stock and then sent it to the smith to continue its life as a different cartridge. 5 pounds 8 oz is what I got for the rifle in 270. I'm hoping it'll be closer to 5 pounds 4 oz by the time it gets back to me. ![[Linked Image]](http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x8/alaska_lanche/Gun%20Pics/E459190B-AE87-4380-BE45-68ED72ABEB50_zpsswjkqhur.jpg)
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I think our bathroom scale rounds to the 1/2 pound so mine may be a bit under 7lbs all up, can tell you that that's about as light as I care to go...but recoil was about like shooting my 7-08 Montana and I am very pleased in acc. funny thing is they both seem to have more recoil than my 308 Montana,go figure.
Roll Tide Roll, now lets go hunting!!!
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Hondo and CT,
Are 100% spot on. The only thing barrel heat does is show you of there is stress in the system that needs to be fixed. Groups grow when you fire more than 3 rounds because 3 rounds aren't a "group". People use 3 rounds because they can lie to themselves. The rifles don't know whether it's the first round or the 15th. 10 rounds offer a good idea of where any one round will bland. There is no such thing as a "cold bore" shot. A sub 2 MOA 308Win Montana is about as good or better than what most will do.
Cut the bs, shoot ten and know what the rifle will do. I shot 10 at 100y last weekend with my 84M and 162gr AMAX. Just recently got my hands on the AMAX so was anxious to see how they'd do. Had several tight 3-shot groups after load work. Using a 6x42 Leupo, all 10 went 1.55". My zero is 100y, and POI were all were basically within the 2" diamond on the target. Not too bad, but I think the results would have been better with a different target. I normally use an orange sticker... the red/white diamond doesn't work well for me but that's what I started with and kept shooting. First 3, cool, another 3, cool, then remaining 4. I'll post a pic when I can. J
Last edited by 4th_point; 11/15/14.
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Good deal J. Those individual 3 shot groups will often (though not always) lie to you. 10 kinda holds a rig's feet to the fire.
Doesn't matter much, but did you happen to let the barrel cool during the 10 shot group or just fire them without cooling?
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I fired 3, cool, another 3, cool, then fired the last 4. I was happy with ~1.6" given the target I was aiming at with 6x.
Went to 500y and it was slamming a manhole cover someone left in the hills. Too easy so I started aiming in the dirt for smaller targets. I'll set-up my steel targets next time.
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J, I'd be tickled pink with 1.55". You've got a solid rig!
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This schit is never not FUNNY! Folks fascinations with 100yd paper,is a fhuqking riot...as there ain't much,that is more moot. Hint.
If I want to reveal a rifle's inherent aptitude,find it's capabilities and most importantly KNOW it's ceiling,it sure as fhuqk ain't gonna be by stabbing close range paper. Gimme 10 pokes that'll tax the erector and prove it's tracking and reliability...as the SOLE means of quantifying the warm/fuzzy,over a 10rd burst on a piece of fhuqking paper.
I'll happily gun a hasty cluster at 100 on a new platform,as a means of initial zero confirmations,then I'm done with that distance,unless something pukes and I gotta start over.
I'd much rather be shooting in the wind at 800yds,than playing slap & tickle at 100 on a glorious day.
Hint.
Thank me later..................
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"no such thing as a cold bore shot"
Well... that sure cuts across the grain.
Gotta check my data books.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
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CTS,
May or may not matter but where the conditions changing or was it relatively calm? Not blaming wind at 100 at all. I am just wondering how long each round sat in the chamber between shots and if it varied depending on waiting on conditions. Probably not anything but just curious.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If you do that every day for the next nine days, how big will the group be?
I suppose it's as likely to hit the target as it is anything else�
And you should read and comprehend the whole thread Don before commenting� Just saying'...
John
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