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Originally Posted by 3584ELK
Coyote_Hunter: I may have missed this part of the post, but did you invalidate your cow tag once you realized you had lost the elk?

In my opinion that is the ethical thing to do when one loses an animal. After all, an elk hit hard enough to bleed pools and ribbons is no doubt dead, correct?

I would never pass judgement on the shot or your marksmanship, as it sounds as though you had plenty of practice and a good range finder. We have all lost game animals (or will at some point) and it is a painful experience.

Better luck next year!


You didn't miss it and no, I didn't invalidate the tag. I had a second cow tag as well, with an overlapping season. After losing the cow I focused on helping my son-in-law fill his tag, which he failed to do. Then I spent time filling my buck tag.

I did hunt the second tag a couple days but mostly it consisted of driving around and exploring Unit 3, an area I'm not very familiar with. The migration hadn't really started, which means elk were very scarce in Unit 3, and I only heard reports of a couple elk being taken there.


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Originally Posted by Alamosa
It is hard not to feel for someone who has had misfortune on a hunt.
Who wouldn't?

The obvious white elephant in the room is when that person is someone with thousands of posts about their experience, marksmanship skills, hunting accomplishments, and pages of advice to others. That bragging sets the bar high for themselves. No one else is doing that but them. OK to play cowboy as long as it is not all hat and no cows. Torture elk with novice mistakes and then expect sympathy? No.


Since we are now considering the ethics of the issue - and we obviously won't all agree on this; I'm not even going to throw out my take on it- would you: under similar circumstances and on open public land, punch your tag on this deal and quit hunting even as you trail the animal over the hill only to find another hunter, with oil still in his barrel, standing over 'your' animal with his tag attached?


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My dad told me years ago it is best to tell people you didn't see anything. No matter how your hunt really went. If you did not see anything no one holds you accountable for anything. If you must confess see a priest...... it helps the image of hunting immensely.


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Originally Posted by Alamosa
It is hard not to feel for someone who has had misfortune on a hunt.
Who wouldn't?

The obvious white elephant in the room is when that person is someone with thousands of posts about their experience, marksmanship skills, hunting accomplishments, and pages of advice to others. That bragging sets the bar high for themselves. No one else is doing that but them. OK to play cowboy as long as it is not all hat and no cows. Torture elk with novice mistakes and then expect sympathy? No.

Private ranch with limited access in a state hunting program? Most of us would treat that with respect from the start. Can't get in range on a ranch? Flinging a long shot under those circumstances? Even if you were a public land DIY guy faced with the only shot opportunity of the trip are you gonna risk that? Ya gotta think your hunt still ends well if no shot is fired. Not so if it turns into a rodeo. If you really are, for lack of a better word, an 'expert hunter' how do you justify that risk over a cow?

So for whatever reason an accomplished hunter decides this is acceptable risk. Goes bad. Still - this could happen to anyone. The cardinal rule no matter what type of trouble you are in is don't make it worse. There is more to being an experienced hunter than hunting skills. Most do not get to that point without developing some better judgement and skills - for instance, - becoming experts at contacting landowners. Gotta think that nearly any ranch knows its adjacent ranches. If not - the phone number on his burglar alarm system will know to contact the owner for sure and it is often posted at the gate. Locked gate call CSP or county dispatch and get help. That's just a few offhand ideas. With a smartphone there are more possibilities.

Continue to hunt? Some years go by where I don't come across an elk carcass fully in tact that was never found by that hunter. Most years I find one.
What is worse than finding that carcass?
Finding a second carcass nearby. Hope he got the 3rd one.
Possibly even worse still is someone else finding it - someone not on the side of the elk hunter. But just tell them it's nobody else's business. If you are at that stage where you are supposed to be setting an example and showing leadership how is continuing to hunt doing so ... and over a cow?

One could empathize with young man making these mistakes who is doing his best to improve. On the other hand someone who talks themselves up but then devotes more explanation to their radio programming than their elk recovery - not so much.


Alamosa -

Your depiction of what happened doesn't jive with what I experienced.

I do a fair amount of practice at what most people consider long range. My favorite targets are clay pigeons at 500 and 600 yards, second favorite is the steel gongs at those ranges. Do I always hit them? Heck, no, but I rarely miss by much once I have a rifle and load dialed in. A few days before the hunt I had been hitting at 300, 500 and 600 yards with the rifle and load I used on the hunt. The shot at the cow was from a good, solid sitting position, off a tripod. We had walked up to our position without noticing any significant wind, nor had we noticed any while sitting in the brush, which we had been doing for some time. In my opinion the 7mmRM and 160 grain North Fork SS were more than adequate for the task at hand, based on 20+ years of using that rifle and 160 grain bullets for elk. Finally, I had - and took - a lot of time to prepare for the shot. Under the circumstances I did not, and still don't, consider the lasered 389 yard range to be a particularly long shot and certainly wouldn't describe what I did as " flinging a long shot". In fact, except for wind drift, I hit pretty much where I aimed. My error was in not compensating for a wind I didn't know existed.

Could we have gotten closer? Just as likely - or more so - we would have simply spooked the herd as we tried to cross the valley and ended up with nothing.

We could have kept searching after dark but chances of finding the cow that way were slim and none - and in fact when we returned the next day we found no additional blood past the orange flag we had put up to mark the last drop we found the day before. Do the ranch hands know the people on the neighboring ranch? Yup, and from what I've seen hunting the ranch four times now they don't get along at all. Cooperation, from what I've seen, is non-existent. Once an animal is over the fence it is gone, not because the other ranchers want an animal to suffer but because they all have hunters paying to hunt their land and don't want hunters from other ranches on their land disturbing whatever game that may be present.

Nowhere have I asked for nor do I expect any sympathy from anyone. It doesn't matter to me that I didn't' get a cow but I am not happy about causing one to suffer, either.

By the way, I devoted two paragraphs and part of a third to the recovery efforts and one sentence about what I listened to on the radio. Get your facts straight.

Edited to add�
While the title of my original post suggested the result with regard to elk, the post was about more than that and summarized the entire hunt. There were 1110 words in the post, exactly 8 of which dealt with what programs I listened to on the radio. According to my word processor there are 401 words dealing with the cow that we eventually lost. The final paragraph adds another 397 words discussing additional details of my pre-hunt preparation, the shot itself, evidence from the blood trail with regard to where the animal was hit and what I think went wrong. That makes 798 words related to the cow versus 8 devoted to radio programming, a ratio a hair shy of 100-1. Just putting some numbers to your contention I put �more explanation to their radio programming than their elk recovery�. Feel free to criticize me but as I said above, get your facts straight.

With regard to the shot the range was 389 yards with a good, stable sitting position using a tripod � not exactly a bench shoot but about as close as you can come in the field. Moreover I was able to take several minutes discussing the shot with my hunting partner and settling into the shooting position � it was not in any way a hurried shot. In 2013 and 2012 my elk were taken at 487 and 399 yards respectively. Both of those were also cross-valley and both were one shot affairs - so I had some recent experience suggesting a successful outcome was likely. I was the one behind the trigger and the one responsible for making the shoot/no-shoot decision. When I made the shoot decision I did so fully expecting to be breaking out the knives in very short order. Hind sight is 20-20 and you are free to find fault with my decision, but you weren�t there. My confidence level was very high and if a similar situation arises I will likely take the shot again.






Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 11/24/14.

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Well, I say good on you for posting about your lost cow; not many people do that, and there is a lesson in there.



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I hate to admit it, but well said smokepole.
I learned a lot following this post.


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Alamosa -

Your depiction of what happened doesn't jive with what I experienced.

I do a fair amount of practice at what most people consider long range. My favorite targets are clay pigeons at 500 and 600 yards, second favorite is the steel gongs at those ranges. Do I always hit them? Heck, no, but I rarely miss by much once I have a rifle and load dialed in. A few days before the hunt I had been hitting at 300, 500 and 600 yards with the rifle and load I used on the hunt. The shot at the cow was from a good, solid sitting position, off a tripod. We had walked up to our position without noticing any significant wind, nor had we noticed any while sitting in the brush, which we had been doing for some time. In my opinion the 7mmRM and 160 grain North Fork SS were more than adequate for the task at hand, based on 20+ years of using that rifle and 160 grain bullets for elk. Finally, I had - and took - a lot of time to prepare for the shot. Under the circumstances I did not, and still don't, consider the lasered 389 yard range to be a particularly long shot and certainly wouldn't describe what I did as " flinging a long shot". In fact, except for wind drift, I hit pretty much where I aimed. My error was in not compensating for a wind I didn't know existed.

Could we have gotten closer? Just as likely - or more so - we would have simply spooked the herd as we tried to cross the valley and ended up with nothing.

We could have kept searching after dark but chances of finding the cow that way were slim and none - and in fact when we returned the next day we found no additional blood past the orange flag we had put up to mark the last drop we found the day before. Do the ranch hands know the people on the neighboring ranch? Yup, and from what I've seen hunting the ranch four times now they don't get along at all. Cooperation, from what I've seen, is non-existent. Once an animal is over the fence it is gone, not because the other ranchers want an animal to suffer but because they all have hunters paying to hunt their land and don't want hunters from other ranches on their land disturbing whatever game that may be present.

Nowhere have I asked for nor do I expect any sympathy from anyone. It doesn't matter to me that I didn't' get a cow but I am not happy about causing one to suffer, either.

By the way, I devoted two paragraphs and part of a third to the recovery efforts and one sentence about what I listened to on the radio. Get your facts straight.

Edited to add�
While the title of my original post suggested the result with regard to elk, the post was about more than that and summarized the entire hunt. There were 1110 words in the post, exactly 8 of which dealt with what programs I listened to on the radio. According to my word processor there are 401 words dealing with the cow that we eventually lost. The final paragraph adds another 397 words discussing additional details of my pre-hunt preparation, the shot itself, evidence from the blood trail with regard to where the animal was hit and what I think went wrong. That makes 798 words related to the cow versus 8 devoted to radio programming, a ratio a hair shy of 100-1. Just putting some numbers to your contention I put �more explanation to their radio programming than their elk recovery�. Feel free to criticize me but as I said above, get your facts straight.

With regard to the shot the range was 389 yards with a good, stable sitting position using a tripod � not exactly a bench shoot but about as close as you can come in the field. Moreover I was able to take several minutes discussing the shot with my hunting partner and settling into the shooting position � it was not in any way a hurried shot. In 2013 and 2012 my elk were taken at 487 and 399 yards respectively. Both of those were also cross-valley and both were one shot affairs - so I had some recent experience suggesting a successful outcome was likely. I was the one behind the trigger and the one responsible for making the shoot/no-shoot decision. When I made the shoot decision I did so fully expecting to be breaking out the knives in very short order. Hind sight is 20-20 and you are free to find fault with my decision, but you weren�t there. My confidence level was very high and if a similar situation arises I will likely take the shot again.





So you didn't post for sympathy nor to find how to correct or improve. Clearly no room for that.
Just for readers enjoyment then?

If you've gotta go on forever recounting your practice, bullet, etc. and seeking approval of that then do you really believe in it yourself? Endless talk of distances and calibers and calculations make it clear those elk are being reduced to mere targets. Any actual elk behavior, strategy, observation, connected to this 'hunt' is nowhere to be found. Sometimes you can't approach them. That's why it is not called a harvest.

The aspect of neighboring ranches making money from this public resource and causing elk lives to go waste so that they may do so. Now that is something I certainly AM interested in hearing more about.

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I'll say this about bad hits: I've learned that if sign does not look good (wrong-colored hair, paunch, bone, meat, dark blood, etc.), I quietly back out and come back at least 6-8 hours later. The animals will often run less than 100yds, lie down, stiffen up, and bleed out. Have seen several jumped up 10 minutes into following bad-looking sign, never to be seen again. The hardest is when there is no sign at the shot location. Maybe the animal soaked up the bullet in the vitals, maybe not. Those are tough calls to make as to withdrawing or starting to search.


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Originally Posted by Alamosa

So you didn't post for sympathy nor to find how to correct or improve. Clearly no room for that.
Just for readers enjoyment then?

If you've gotta go on forever recounting your practice, bullet, etc. and seeking approval of that then do you really believe in it yourself? Endless talk of distances and calibers and calculations make it clear those elk are being reduced to mere targets. Any actual elk behavior, strategy, observation, connected to this 'hunt' is nowhere to be found. Sometimes you can't approach them. That's why it is not called a harvest.

The aspect of neighboring ranches making money from this public resource and causing elk lives to go waste so that they may do so. Now that is something I certainly AM interested in hearing more about.


No, I didn�t post it for sympathy. The thought never crossed my mind.

Nor was I seeking approval of my �practice, bullet etc.� If someone wants to make suggestions as to how I might improve, it might help them to have some background as to the details and my preparation, which I provided in brief. If readers enjoy or learn anything from what I wrote, good. If not, no one forces them to read it. Why do you bother? Put me on your ignore list and be blissfully happy.

If you don�t already understand that ranchers make money off landowner tags, trespass fees, hunting right leases, services provided, etc., or that they are protective of such revenue streams, then nothing I can say or do will help you with such understanding.

One other thing � when it comes time to apply pressure to the trigger, the elk ***is*** a target. With the grace of God I will do my part and put the bullet where it will be effective. It is my fault if that doesn�t happen as was the case this year.

Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 11/24/14. Reason: missing word "nothing" added

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Originally Posted by Angus1895
I hate to admit it, but well said smokepole.


You hate to admit it?? I've gotta tell you, I say it well all the time, ain't no big deal.



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Alamosa -

Apparently you took the "Lost my elk" title of the thread in ways I never my imagined would be done. Those three words were chosen for simplicity and because they very succinctly provided a wealth of information to potential readers, albeit with a modicum of inference required, to wit:

1. I recently went on an elk hunt.
2. I had an elk tag.
3. I saw elk.
4. A shot opportunity on an elk was achieved.
5. I took the shot.
6. The elk was hit.
7. The elk was not recovered.

That is a lot of information to be conveyed in three short words totaling nine characters. Perhaps you would have chosen a different title considering the original post was a summary of the entire hunt rather than just about the cow. After re-reading my original post I still feel the title summed things up pretty well and was entirely appropriate.

Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 11/24/14.

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I couldn't care less about the title.

Anyone who brags on themself as much as you do then insists their own train wreck couldn't be helped and plans to do it again?!!?

Beat it.

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Coyote Hunter after re-reading your initial post, this is perhaps two years on the trot the wounded elk has run off over the fence. Same fence?

Last edited by Angus1895; 11/25/14.

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Originally Posted by Angus1895
After re-reading your initial post. This is perhaps two years on the trot the elk has run off over the fence. Same fence?


No, different fences, different range, different rifle and load and about a 100 yard shot. The one last year was on public land. It went about 100 yards and laid down in some tall sage. I knew about where it was but not exactly and was studying the area and waiting for it to bleed out when some other hunters came over a rise, walked up on it from a different direction and pushed it out of its bed. It jumped a nearby (40 yards?) fence to private land and it was shot by hunters there.

I've been hunting elk since 1982 and these are the first two I've shot that I haven't recovered. The one this year is the first that wasn't recovered at all.


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Originally Posted by Alamosa
I couldn't care less about the title.

Anyone who brags on themself as much as you do then insists their own train wreck couldn't be helped and plans to do it again?!!?

Beat it.


The shot I took this year was one I�ve made hundreds of times at the range. The �train wreck� could have been avoided with a simple no-shoot decision on my part and I�ve never claimed differently. But yes, based on my preparation at the range and experience with longer shots in the field (I guess the �bragging� you are talking about), in a similar situation I would probably take the shot again.

Nowhere have I ever claimed to be the best marksman around, or even a particularly good one. There are many here at the �fire that are far better than I am or will ever be. Hitting gongs at 600 yards isn�t a big deal � I�ve had my nieces do it after a few shots and a bit of coaching and they had no prior shooting experience. Hitting clay pigeons at that range is a different story but I�ve never claimed to do anything other than hit them often enough to keep me interested. It�s kind of like the intermittent success that is so addictive to gamblers.

Nor have I ever claimed to be a great elk hunter. When I started in 1982 I wasn�t very successful and had average success until the late �90�s when I started focusing on filling the freezer rather than big antlers. Since 2000 I�ve put, 13 elk in the freezer, mostly cows. That�s not a bad record and it�s not bragging, just the facts.

�Beat it�? Really? Seems to me you have anger, reading comprehension and other issues you need to deal with. You read what you want into what I�ve written, then make false claims about it as a justification for your rants. Don�t hold your breath waiting for me to �Beat it�. Or do, I really don�t care.





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On and on about bullets and distances and elk are targets.
Still nothing about hunting.

A herd of elk standing around a saddle maybe a little out of range, man that is the kind of rare opportunity I wait years for.
Not because there is an easy kill there, just the opposite.
It is because it provides the opportunity to hunt.

If I can somehow find an approach, solve the terrain puzzle, use the wind, or think a few moves ahead, then that becomes an animal that I've earned. My definition of fair chase. That is beating them at their own game. That is a story worth telling.
If I can't outsmart an elk I don't deserve an elk.

Risking a long shot at first the sighting? I can understand that if it is your first or second elk. If you have traveled across the country and your only chance � I get that. Local, experienced, private ranch, WTF?

Novices chase bulls for antlers, but the real thing that is so enticing and so much fun about hunting bulls is they understand, they know the score, and they are good at it. I'm getting better at it.
That goes to the heart of the game. Reach the stage where it's not much about meat or antlers.
Hunt for the hunt itself.

That encounter with elk on their own terrain, in a place of their choosing, that is where the real hunt begins.
I can't imagine throwing that away on buck fever.
I'd never waste that great opportunity on a long shot.
It's not about what your rifle can do - hunt using your mind.
It's a lot more enjoyable stalking the quarry than trying to clean up a mess.

Don�t bother to try to notify a ranch you�ve hit an elk there? I couldn�t carry that on my conscience. Keep hunting? Not the sort of example I would want to set.

Want to see what kind of experience someone has? Pay attention to what they do and the choices they make - beware what they claim to have done.

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Why waste such great stalking and snarking here when you can slather it so much poignantly over on the long range forum? wink


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What, did I miss a good thread over there?



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Sure a lot of words for one lost elk.

I have lost two elk in a lot of years of hunting. One I know why. The other I could never figure out. Three of us hunted all day for her. I went back several times to check for crows,etc, circling. Never did find her, but I know she was dead. 50 yard shot, blood coming out both sides.Looked like a good double lunger. She stood there 4-5 minute until bull she had been with came running back past and she took off with him, never to be seen again.

You try to make sure things don't happen, but they do. I felt bad, but sure didn't punch my tag because of it. I think I have only shot two elk past 200 yards, and less than 100 is the norm. Not saying anything bad about those that do, I just don't. Probably I'm not capable of it any more either.

I think this thread needs to be put to bed


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
I think this thread needs to be put to bed


Nah, it needs to be spanked and put to bed without dinner. grin



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