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Originally Posted by SKane
Alright guys, I gotta ask - how has much of the U.P. fallen so far in terms of animals and animal quality? (not so much the farm country but the big woods)



I think the biggest changes are in our expectations and how it now compares to the southern lower. The limiting factor in the U. P. deer population is the winter habitat and feed.

Originally Posted by SKane


From my experience, (much like it is in northern WI) if you took away the 4-wheelers and baiting, a good many would quit hunting.

What say you?



There is only one other hunter I personally know that doesn't hunt over bait. I did it for a few years while hunting with a group that did, but gave it up. I am happier, and just as productive. We have a generation of hunters now that has known nothing else. Without the bait there would also be less need for the 4-wheelers. While I'm on the soap box, I would get rid of the two-buck tag, and issue more doe permits.


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My 180 UP acres in the big woods of northern Menominee County looks like deer heaven on an aerial photo, or when you walk through it, but deer numbers are about 10% of what they were back in 1995 when I bought the property.

Where I saw 25 deer a day in the late 90's, I am seeing 2 or 3. The other night I actually had 7 come through and I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I have only seen one buck, a 3-point. There are a few small bucks on camera and one big bodied 7-point that showed up one night at 3AM and then disappeared.

It has been a discouraging season. The extremely severe winter of 2013/2014 killed a lot of deer, but they were way down before the winter started. The weather, diseases, coyotes, bobcats, eagles, cougars, bears, wolves, cars, poachers and crop damage shooters all get their share before the hunters hit the woods.

Our area has been logged in the past few years and there is quite a bit of new growth that should have improved conditions for the herd.

I have NEVER seen any detectable benefit from the "Let 'em go, let 'em grow" philosophy. We let small bucks go on their way every year, but never see them all grown up the next year. I believe that the breeding bucks are the first to die in a bad winter, because they have run all of their fat off chasing does, just before the cold weather hits.

Our hunting pressure has steadily fallen over the years and there are few young people in the deer camps around this area. It will be a minor miracle if I am able to take a legal buck on my property this season, despite spending the summer planting clover and rye and doing everything I can to improve the deer habitat on the place.

But I'll keep trying...

Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 11/24/14.

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Good to hear form ya Wildhobbybobby. If I saw 2 deer a day I would be a happy camper. I only sat 14 times this year and saw deer two times. Don't laugh Wildhobbybobby, but I sometimes look at land up by you cause it is so much better than where I am. Someday , maybe, I will buy land there.


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The biggest factor is the UP winters. The second biggest is the way the DNR handed out doe tags for so long. Bait kills our season. Our rut is very weak, no competition. Bucks don't have to go all out to find does to breed because they don't have to compete with another buck for the most part. I rarely see chasing and seldom see bucks cruising. There's hardly any buck sign in the woods, no need.

I gun hunt another big woods state with no baiting. There's sign everywhere, deer are on their feet all day, heavy competition...all with less than six deer per square mile. Find a buck or a doe group, sit it and shoot a wall hanger. Doesn't get any better. Deer there also respond to calls there, unlike the UP.

I hate hunting the UP, but I live here and have started a family. I may be limited to UP hunting the next 1-2 years.

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Don't get me wrong, I love the UP and like to hunt the big woods, and I also really enjoy puttering around the place all summer doing prep work for deer season. It keeps me off the streets.

But I can't help thinking that things could be better if management of the wildlife here had less to do with politics and more to do with reality and some consideration for the people who pay the bills.

We can't control the weather, but there are other factors that affect the deer population that could be improved if there was the will to do so.

Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 11/24/14.

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Too bad guys don't bait em after season to help keep them alive during the winter as much as they do to kill em.

I have no issue with bait. Im not a fan of hunting over it. I agree with whoever made the comment about today's young hunters needing bait, seems darn few have any woodsman about them.


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I confess that I hunt over bait from a nice heated blind. I spent many years sitting by a runway on a stump, but I just can't take the cold any more. I guess my He-Man days are over.

Last winter before I left for FL, I put about 3 tons of nice, second cutting hay out for the deer. While I was gone and hearing about the severe conditions, I worried that "my" deer would run out of food and succumb to the weather.

When I got back, there was still some hay left...good news and bad news...the deer never ran out of food, but there weren't enough deer to eat the food.

And...the wolf tracks around the hay piles can make you wonder just exactly WHICH animals you are feeding...

Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 11/24/14.

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That's ok WH Bobby, I sit in a blind during gun season too when it's cold. I will sit in one forever now. I can't stand the cold and wind. I have a blind on a small hill overlooking a 5 yr cutover. Behing me is a swamp. I can't believe how much warmer a blind is. I used to sit in a tree and freeze. I also don't really mind some bait. I have put a few handfulls , or a coffee cup of corn along a log where my son sits sometimes. For some reason, not every baiter is a slob hunter, but every slob hunter is a baiter. It is enough to stop them for minute. I am also convinced deer are leary to come into bait with wolves around. All that deer scent has got to be a dead giveaway when a pack of wolves come through. The dumb ones die quick. Also, if you find wolf kills , the whole deer is gone. You won't even find the backbone. Even the hide is torn off the hair and nothing is left. Here are some wolf kills. Nothing left but the skull and the hoof.[Linked Image]

Last edited by ihookem; 11/24/14.

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I've seen wolf kills that look quite different then that too. That one looks quite old and may have had snow on it for some time.

I'd like to blame the wolves, but I just can't put it all on them. I've hunted areas/states that have a way worse wolf problem than MI and I just don't see it. I'm all for knocking the numbers down though. Go out to MT, ID, MN or even WI and you'll see a wolf issue. We have way more land mass and way less wolves per capita. Our deer numbers are dwindling more because of winters and over harvest than wolves.

I watched the winter of 02-03 kill UP whitetails, 07-08 & 08-09 kill UP whitetails and now 13-14 & 14-15 kill UP whitetails. In between, our numbers rebound a bit.

What most are unconsciously complain about though us the fact that we were way overpopulated prior to the winter of 95-96. That herd wiped out our deer yards and ultimately 200,000+ deer died. The numbers rebounded a bit, but the DNR knocked them down with doe tags...too many.

What about the 70's when guys pissed themselves if they saw a track?

Look at our antler size compared to other big woods states a similar climate. In some areas of the UP, a 3 1/2 year old is a dink six. That same deer may be 120" in another big woods state. I won't venture to give my philosophy there though.

I could go on and on. It's safe to say that we have way too much bait in the woods and way too many deer hunters for the herd the UP now carries. It's driving people out or causing them to give up all together.

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It was a winter kill for sure cause it wasn't there in the fall. I've seen some wolf kills that still had a bit of meat on the bones. Wolves will even eat the nose on a deer, just leaving the top of the skull. Weather the wolves killed it , who knows. Maybe it was ready to die when the wolves found it.


But the fruits of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,faithfulness, Gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5: 22&23
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I agree with pretty much everything you said, Dooger. I'd say we are basically returning to the 70's at this point. And my 6-point from last year was indeed a 3 1/2 year old buck.

Predation from all sources is a bigger factor than it was 25 years ago, but certainly not the whole problem. I won't lay it all on the wolves either...but I have yet to see a wolf protectively escorting a deer to the safety of the food pile.

One sad fact is that there are fewer people around that care about deer numbers and quality deer hunting than there used to be, and that cannot bode well for the future of the sport.


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Originally Posted by wildhobbybobby
My 180 UP acres in the big woods of northern Menominee County looks like deer heaven on an aerial photo, or when you walk through it, but deer numbers are about 10% of what they were back in 1995 when I bought the property.

Where I saw 25 deer a day in the late 90's, I am seeing 2 or 3. The other night I actually had 7 come through and I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I have only seen one buck, a 3-point. There are a few small bucks on camera and one big bodied 7-point that showed up one night at 3AM and then disappeared.

It has been a discouraging season. The extremely severe winter of 2013/2014 killed a lot of deer, but they were way down before the winter started. The weather, diseases, coyotes, bobcats, eagles, cougars, bears, wolves, cars, poachers and crop damage shooters all get their share before the hunters hit the woods.

Our area has been logged in the past few years and there is quite a bit of new growth that should have improved conditions for the herd.

I have NEVER seen any detectable benefit from the "Let 'em go, let 'em grow" philosophy. We let small bucks go on their way every year, but never see them all grown up the next year. I believe that the breeding bucks are the first to die in a bad winter, because they have run all of their fat off chasing does, just before the cold weather hits.

Our hunting pressure has steadily fallen over the years and there are few young people in the deer camps around this area. It will be a minor miracle if I am able to take a legal buck on my property this season, despite spending the summer planting clover and rye and doing everything I can to improve the deer habitat on the place.

But I'll keep trying...


Sounds very much like my place just South of the bridge, WHB.

Food plot and letting the spikes go for years with nothing to show for it.


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Well, Scott, it still beats spending time in Detroit.


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Originally Posted by wildhobbybobby

One sad fact is that there are fewer people around that care about deer numbers and quality deer hunting than there used to be, and that cannot bode well for the future of the sport.


BAM!

It's all about Beer Camp and sitting 8-10 hours to shoot a dink and get back to Beer Camp...then home after a few days.

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Originally Posted by wildhobbybobby
Well, Scott, it still beats spending time in Detroit.


It sure does. smile

A little perspective sure helps put a bit of a shine on, doesn't it?


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I read several reports earlier and the general concensus was that bout 60% of the UP herd died to winter kill/predators. Obviuously, the northern part of the state got hit very hard as well.

Remarkably, the southern 1/3 seems to have faired mch better and numbers are still very good.

I gotta think that this crappy weather is only going to further contribute to lower overall kills this year, statewide. Which may be a good thing, considering.

We still easily have one of the largest herds in the nation. Maybe not 2 million deer anymore, but eventually, it will bounce back. It always does.

I think we all need to shoot some doggies this winter......

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1+ on the doggies! Hunter #s are down, iv thought that for the last few years but the sat. opener proved it! I think alot of guys are takeing there vac. time for the youth hunts, 2 guys in our group did that this year! but with the bad weather this season maybe a few bucks will make it to next spring if the winter not very bad!


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Maybe we should get together some time this winter, John. Try to take out some coyotes.....

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In the northern half of the UP bow/ MZ season should start on Oct 1 and end Oct 15. Keep rifle season as it is. One tag only for the whole UP that must have 4pts or better. No doe permits or does killed with a bow in the northern half of the UP. Clear cut every acre of state owned winter habitat as it's all browsed out. Manage state owned land containing Oaks and Beech for mast production by selective cutting, but manage non mast producing trees via clear cutting. Bump tag prices up to 200 dollars for residents and 500 for NR. Hire more CO's to crack down on the slobs. For starters...

Last edited by BWalker; 11/25/14.
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$500 !!!!! Starting ot think youdon't want me there!!.. I know we have to do something. I don't know quite what. I think for starters we should have shot more wolves this year cause it will be very slim pickins with so few fawns this winter. SHould shoot a bunch more bear , at least in Wis. One buck per year up north and no does. Start cutting trees. like BWalker said. We have to do something. Wisconsin is going ot have a wakeup call. 22,000 less tags were sold this gun season. Honestly , I also think bait makes them move much different than without bait. At least then it would force them to move more in the daytimes. ALso, Wildhobbybobby, 25 yrs ago not as many hunters baited, now every ball slingin inbred is dumping bait . You have competition now and every deer in 1/2 sq. mi.know were all the corn piles are. Here is an example. When I get to my cabin on Wednesday night, there are deer waiting in the yard for me to put down some apple, corn or some old cereal . I go out and I can litterally be 10' form them and they stand there and look at me. By Friday afternoon the deer hear the atv's and know it means piles of corn being dumped. By Friday night we see 1 deer or so and Saturday night we usually don't see any. They are all at the established bait piles and know just where they are. Now days they are very conditioned to bait piles.


But the fruits of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,faithfulness, Gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5: 22&23
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