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I'm curious what experiences ya'll have had with Leica or Swarovski ranging bino's. My simple approach is it's combining two pieces of gear, less for me to fiddle with and have to carry.

How good is the glass? How accurate is the ranging? I've been thinking about a Leica choice.


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once you use them you will not go back especially as a western hunter. I have the swaro's The latest leica's don't seem to fit me well and the glass has more green tint than even the previous model. The leica probably has a better RF, although the rf on my swaros totally blows away the previous model, leica HD's. The swaro RF easily ranges beyond 1000 yards on nearly everything. thats as far as I can shoot for the most part. I am really happy with them. The rangefinding is very accurate, leica does have some extra bells and whistles as to RF function. it really depends on what your want to do with them. Your probably not an extreme long range hunter so, pick the one that you like the glass on the best.

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I picked up the Leica 10x42 Geovid HD-B'd this past summer and they're frickin awesome! I owned the original Bushnell's, the Swaro's, both Leica 1600 and 1600B's, then the Gunwerks G7 and the HD-B's rock! I've got world class glass and a rangefinder/ballistic calculator all-in-one.

I like to spin elevation turrets so I down load my ballistic data to the MicroSD card and drop it into the battery compartment. The printed info says it will give dope to 1000 yds buy mine will go 1008. It uses the internal inclinometer, baro pressure and temperature to properly calculate a precise ballistic solution. It's always been within one 1/4 moa click of my Shooter ballistic app.

My Nightforce scopes all use 1/4 moa "turrets" so I set my HD-B's with 1/4 moa "clicks". At first, the 1/4 Mao clicks were a "No Go" as far as buying the set. Once I figured I'd make up a simply division 4 cheat sheet, that issue was gone.

The issue I had before I bought my set was the online program, which was powered by what I believe to be Gunwerks G7 ballistic program. The end user could only use G1 and not G7 ballistics (G1 = flat base bullets. G7 = more modern spitzer, boat tail ballistics). One day I sat down and compared several of my LR loadings and found it was only a 1"-2" difference at 1000 yds, the max distance the HD-B's are supposed to give dope to. Who cares, I thought!

Well, my pair are the gem of my eye. I've never had an issue ranging at least to 1400 yds on the brightest of days with the remainder of the distances I range going further. I cannot get them to go beyond 2100 yds, but, I don't care because I don't plan on killing anything that far out.

I got mine so I could carry one item and not two (bino and rangefinder). They work very well and even saved my elk hunt last month when I ranged a spike bull at 1020. All I had to do was range a few sage brush until I hit one at 1008, got my dope and added one 1/4 moa click. By the time I got set for the shot, he had moved in 70 yds without my knowing and I shot right over him by 41". I quickly ranged him again at 950, pulled my dope from the HD-B's, quickly dialed down 9 clicks and killed him....with 4 minutes of legal light remaining. Not sure I could have done all that in time with a rangefinder and a hand held ballistic app.

I can't compare my Leica glass to other world class glass because I haven't looked through them other than my 20+ year old Zeiss 10x40B's. The Leica's were better.

Alan

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Oh, yeah. My 257 Roberts has a VX3 with a Boone & Crockett reticle so I set up the HD-B's for EHR (Equivalent Horizontal Range). I drop the MicroSD card into the set and when I range 400 yds, it takes the temp, baro presssure and up/down hill angle into account and adjusts the range I hold for; all in about 1 second.

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so they wont give an MOA or MIL solution? you're stuck with clicks?

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yes they only read clicks, they do offer a MOA solution however they round it up or down, so if you get 18.6, it tells you to dial 19moa. 18.4 would be 18 moa. not really workable so everyone uses clicks. I am hoping they are going to update the 1600 with the same technology that the geovids have and fix the quirks.

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My pair of Leica 1600's had output in moa to the .1. They ruined the 1600B's with the same click out put as the HD-B's. At least, to me, my little division 4 cheat sheet fixes the issue.

Alan

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So forgive my question if it's ignorant, but can you choose metric readings in meters rather than yards and get it to read in mils or related corrections in Mils ?( Clicks in Mils)


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I think I found what I was looking for if my math isn't goofy.

On Leica's site,"ABC�- Function 2
The point of impact can also be corrected with the Bullet Drop Compensator (BDC). It also displays the number of clicks required to adjust the reticle. Display formats are: 1 MOA, 1/3 MOA, 1/4 MOA, 10 mm/100 m, 5 mm/100 m."

So if .1 MRAD = 1cm @ 100 meters, 10mm = 1cm then by choosing the function2 for BDC with a choice of display in 10mm/100m it would be the equivalent of .1 MRAD or if you choose the 5mm/100m it would be in .05 MRAD "clicks" if you will.

Having a Mil turret, with .1 Mil graduations, you pick 10mm/100m and the adjustments will equal .1Mils each or one click.

You may be able to choose English measurements and still choose ABC function 2 with a BDC scaled to .1 Mils.

OR am I completely confused? crazy


Last edited by BigNate; 11/20/14.

“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.”
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�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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I'm not a mil shooter but if your math is correct, it sounds reasonable to me.

Alan

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Bushnell Fusion ARC 1600 I got here on the fire preowned (thank you to Great Waputi for a good deal and flawless prceedings).

To my eyes a serious piece of kit. Ranging in a quick test on par with Leica 1600. I can life very well with the so called "blue tinge".

Admittingly a bit anxious on the "electronics" not to take a dive...

For the purpose - in set with my canned Savage PC .308, SWFA 10x42 MIL/MIL - set up for ranging in meters - its the cats meouw.




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I use the 10x42 ranging Swarovski's and love them. Got them when they first came out and they've worked flawlessly on many hunts. I spin turrets on some guns but have the turrets pre-printed in yards so I don't need to mess with the clicks, apps, programs and math, lol. I've ranged out to 2200 yards with them but would say they are really reliable out to 1200 or so and a little sketchy on what they will range over that.


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I had to have the Leica HD-Bs as soon as they were available. The integral ranging function worked well, but I really did not care for the whole package.

In Wyoming last year, I sat in my truck while my buddies were putting the stock on a herd of speed goats. I watched the whole thing unfold and was switching back and forth between the HD-Bs and my older Swarovskis (both in 10x42).

I decided to keep the Swarovskis. I have never tried the Swarovskis with the rangefinder, other than at the SCI show, and that was indoors.

donsm70


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I did a side by side analysis of the Swarovski and The Leica some back. I have owned them both since they were introduced. The long and short of it:

The rangefinder reads farther with the HD- B
Optically I see no advantage to either
The rangefinding button is easier to use with the HD-B
The HD-B is on the extreme end of size

I have the HD-B now but when Swarovski comes out with their next model, I will be a buyer. The HD-B was a disappointment, I was expecting more.
It will also be harder to sell the Leica, they never turn as fast as a Swarovski. I am sure I will have to take a big hit when that time comes...


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I am tempted but have held off thus far.

Binos that last for 30 years with a built-in laser rangefinder that will last perhaps a decade. Then you have heavy binos. smile


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Wouldn't be without a set.

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[quote=shrapnel]

I did a side by side analysis of the Swarovski and The Leica some back. I have owned them both since they were introduced. The long and short of it:

The rangefinder reads farther with the HD- B
Optically I see no advantage to either
The rangefinding button is easier to use with the HD-B
The HD-B is on the extreme end of size



I have the HD-B now but when Swarovski comes out with their next model, I will be a buyer. The HD-B was a disappointment, I was expecting more.
It will also be harder to sell the Leica, they never turn as fast as a Swarovski. I am sure I will have to take a big hit when that time comes...


Shrapnel:

How is the view on the Swarovski? Is the the sweet spot as large as on the EL SV's (in focus to the edge, or a very large sweet spot)?

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The Rangefinding ELs don't have Swarovision and aren't the equivalent optically. The belly on the bottom of the barrels of the binoculars is worse to look at than actually to use. The only 2 features I preferred of the HD-B were the rangefinding button position and the rangefinder itself. I didn't get the HD-B for the ability to enter ballistics into the binocular. If that means something to you, it has one more preferential feature. I am not amused by the technical ability of the HD-B. I am just interested in the optic and rangefinding capabilities...


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BigNate,

I have had my Geovid 10x42's now for nearly 10 years. During that time, they have been used for everything from turkey, to elk, deer, bighorn sheep, Ibex, two African safaris, etc. etc.

Never a failure to function, and having both binos and rangefinder in one quality optic is a huge bonus. I can't imagine going afield without them!

Once, I did manage to drop them out of a tree blind while whitetail hunting, and caused the left-eye diopter adjustment ring to freeze up. A call to Leica and shipment of the binos, and a quick return with my Leicas fixed, re-filled with nitrogen, at no charge.


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One additional negative on Leica's, Leica doesn't warranty used or second hand binos and electronics. Swaro and Zeiss do.

Has anyone compared the Swaro vs Zeiss bino rangefinders?




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I have and use the Bushnell's and would not be without again. My hunting buddy has the Zeis flavor and my crap eyes do not see enough improvement to justify the extra cost. I like Leica glass though....


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I am a Western hunter and live between GSSP and cummins cowboy, I prefer having two separate units. I love the optics that I have, but I also love my rangefinder. I know I will want to upgrade my rangefinder at some point, dont think I need to upgrade on optics.

Technology in rangefinders is still evolving and getting better every year, optics might get slightly better but a great optic now will still be a great optic in a decade. a great rangefinder now might be a dinosaur or broken in a decade.

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The biggest advantage is that you pretty much always take one last look with your glasses before you put one in the chamber and get in position to shoot. Just hit the button and you're done. The combo just can't be beat. I won't get another set of plain jane binos again. I bought the original Leica's when they first came out and loved them. I gave them to my guide in '07 as a tip, bought another pair and used them since. Last summer I bought the Swarovski and 2 weeks ago dropped off the Leica's at my local gun shop to sell.

I think hands down the Swarovski are the better ones on the market, and it really isn't close. Boils down to glass and bulk.

Both are decent rangefinders, the least important factor. Both range well over 1200 yds, but so what...it really doesn't matter after 1000 anyway-- you're still hiking. At those ranges you need the best glass possible. Having hunted with both, glassing brown bear on Kodiak at over 2 miles, I'd chunk the Leica in a garbage pail without hesitation.

Leica glass is just not up to par with Swarovski (or Zeiss) and never has been. Good glass, best of the rest, but just not as good. When Leica was the only player you could have made an argument about using better Zeiss or Swarovski glass and a separate rangefinder and I wouldn't disagree with you as it really boiled down to what you felt was more important- convenience or better glass.

I used to look at it this way- I didn't mind compromising and leaving my Swarovski & Zeiss at home because it was worth having the built in rangefinder. Now, that Swarovski is on the market there is no reason to compromise.

Also, the Leica are just pigs........just way too bulky, especially on backpack hunts, they're always in the way.

Regardless, both are quality products and you really can't go wrong with either one you choose, but the Swarovski are hands down better.

PS I understand Zeiss are having some teething issues but if they ever get those sorted out......

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Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano


Leica glass is just not up to par with Swarovski (or Zeiss) and never has been.......


Think you are just a bit over the top smile

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I was under the impression that the Lieca RF is about the best, and the glass is of very similar quality.


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I've been using rangefinder binoculars of various makes for a few years now, and while the convenience is great, I'm starting to come to the same conclusion as boatanchor. Something is likely to go haywire in the RF eventually, and I also started to miss my Leica 8+12x42 Duovid for glassing. (It may have "inferior" glass, but I notice that hunting with 10x binoculars of other makes my companions often ask to take a look through it, because they can see better with 12x than 10x.)

This fall I tried going back to the Duovid and a separate rangefinder and liked it a lot.


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I've been following this thread closely. I think I'm about to buy one of these. For reference I have a pair of Swarovski 8X30 SLC that I bought new in the '90's. I sent them in about 3 years ago for a clean and tweak and they sent them back fully upgraded - new eye cups, body, objective lenses, diopter adjuster and lots of internal parts. I compare everything I look through to them. I use a Leica rangefinder. I also have a pair of Kaibab HD 15X56 tripod binoculars that I rarely use. I'll probably sell all three of these.

I want a bit more magnification and more field of view, plus an integrated range finder. A buddy has an older pair of Leica RF binos that I've tried. I had pretty much decided that I would go with the Leica 10X42 HD-B. I have played with them at the store quite a bit. They are certainly bigger than my 8X30's but when you add the Leica rangefinder around my neck, the two pieces together are about the same weight as the 10X42 HD-B's but are very awkward.

I was coming back in town today about 45 minutes before dark. It was snowing and blowing pretty good. So I swung by the store and brought both the Swarovski and Leica outside and compared them and my Swarovski 8X30's. Both are noticeably better than my 8X30's and they should be! The specs show the Leicas have more field of view than the Swarovskis. That was evident too. I tried both pairs with my gloves on. The Swarovskis were really difficult for me to grip and hit the button with gloves on. I also noted that it would be really hard to hit the button while bow hunting as a right hander. After I got the Swarovski's display adjusted, it was not hard to see. It is noticeably slower to range compared to my older Leica RF and to the new 10X42 HD-B's. The range finding functions on the Leica are great. Very fast. I ranged a piece of brush across the highway at 1139 yards in the snowstorm. The Swarovskis took three tries but got the same reading.

I was hoping that there would be a big difference in the glass. I didn't find it. Granted I am used to an older pair of binos. Both are noticeably brighter, crisper to the edges and require less focusing. I swapped back and forth between the two until after dark. There may be a slight edge towards the Swarovskis, but it was not huge to my eyes.

I enjoy long range shooting all year long. So the rangefinder capabilities are important to me. I nearly bought one of the G7 rangefinders that are on sale now. They are BIG. Especially when combined with a pair of binoculars. Between the two that I'm looking at, the Leica rangefinder performance trumps the minimal (to me) optics advantage of the Swarovskis. I'm about 80% decided on the Leicas but still open to opinions.

I guess I just need to make Shrap an offer on his. Thanks for all of the info.

Bob


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bob, your going to be happy. Lots of guys talk about how using a seperate unit is no big deal. The problem is with the puny monocular of a seperate RF unit its not exactly easy to refind the animal alot of times. sometimes this requires extra time and monkeying around. not to mention maybe the animal has moved by the time you dig the unit out of your pocket. if you don't buy shrap's. make sure you call around and ask for the best price with money order or check by phone. I wouldn't pay more than about 2650. if you can't get that price or less keep calling around. if you wear a bino harness you will find the weight will not bother you at all.

I am hoping leica upgrades its 1600 model to include the atmospheric and SD card setup the geovid has, I have a feeling we are going to see them introduce that at shot show this year. as long as they keep it under 1k I will buy one and still carry the EL range as well. and just pull out the leica when I want a firing solution. still I would not go back to a regular binocular.

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I looked at the Swaro's again today. I'm just not sure I would be happy with the rangefinder features on them. The size is certainly nicer. Tough call.

Bob


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Originally Posted by shrapnel

The HD-B was a disappointment, I was expecting more.



Shrapnel,

Would you please elaborate? Why are they disappointing? Why did you keep the Leica rather than the Swaros?

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I got a great quote from Cameraland on the Leicas today. Thanks for the heads up Cummingscowboy. I think I'll go with them. One last check of the Swaros.

Bob


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