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I have vast experience in deer and elk hunting with about any caliber from 22 rimfire to 416 Taylor. I have never been around a 45-70 very often and am not convinced of its stopping power on charging game. I have shot 2 mule deer bucks is all with a 45-70 and both were spinal cord neck shots and they dropped on the spot. But that reaction would happen if shot with a 22 as well. Experts state that a minimum 2000 fps impact velocity is required to create hydrostatic shock. Few hot 45-70 loads reach the minimum at muzzle. The one and only deer I shot with a 12 gauge foster slug was shot between the eyes at 3 feet away (it was a road cripple needing to be killed). I missed the brain by an inch and it only blinked and looked at me, NO knockdown factor. What I am asking the members here, is to tell their experience's with the big slugs of the 45-70 caliber and what the animals reaction was. I read years ago that the 30-30 was a far faster killing cartridge on moose in Alaska than the old 45-70's were. Of course this was in the old days with the old military loads. I am not interested in head and spinal shots as about any caliber will give the same results as the 45-70. What are your experiences?

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I've shot one critter with a .45-70 using a 405 gr. Rem or 400 gr. Speer bullet, I don't remember which, at 1680 fps. It was a smallish black bear going past me at 9 yards. The bullet entered high on the shoulder and exited low in the ribs. The exit hole was the size of an Eisenhower dollar. The bear rolled down hill about fifteen yards and never moved. I've since shot bears with the .30-'06, 8x57, and 350 Rem Mag. All worked well, but none as spectacularly as that one with the .45-70. A small sample, but that's how it happened.


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I have shot 3 elk, 1 deer, and 1 bear with the 45-70 with 405g cast. the elk were all heart lung shots from ranges between 40 to 120 yards and ran from 15 to 60 yards. bear was heart shot. bang, flop. deer was shot last Friday afternoon at 60 feet. bang flop. there is nothing in the lower 48 I would hesitate to use the 45-70 on. if actually after a griz I would use 550g craters.
the great thing about the 45-70 with a wide flat nose bullet is you have close to if not a bigger than 1/2 inch hole starting out. remember if you place a hole in the plumbing the blood pressure goes to zero and everything shuts down. never bought into the hydrostatic shock business.


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There is a lot to be desired with the 45-70 as a game killer. I have killed lots of game with those older Black Powder cartridges and the way they performed best was larger frontal area on the bullet and larger bullets with more powder.

I love those guns and cartridges, but they basically put holes in things and where the hole is, is what determines how quickly the animal dies.

I have shot buffalo with them and they will completely penetrate 2 buffalo if you have them lined up. Momentum is the driving force with those big slow bullets and penetration is the result.

If you do hit the spine, heart or brain, it will put them down quickly. Especially the brain and spine. A heart shot is certainly lethal, but I have seen buffalo go quite a ways with a bullet through the heart.

Shot through the lungs with a high velocity expanding bullet, an animal will drop much quicker than with the 45-70.

I think the best way to put game on the ground with the 45-70 is an immediate kill shot or structural damage. A 45-70 will certainly damage bone structure and that is hard on animals.

There is more than one reason that hunting cartridges have changed over the years and velocity with expanding bullets do have the advantage.

This 45-70 model 1886 with 405 grain hard cast bullets, completely penetrated this bull and went through another cow and hit a third buffalo in the leg. Youj can't shoot at them lined up like that.

[Linked Image]

I put 4 rounds through this bull and he didn't drop from any one of them and I was using Hornady 500 grain dangerous game bullets on him. the 4th round did tip him over, but that was a 405 grain cast bullet through the back of his head, into his brain...

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This cow was the same thing, but I shot her through the shoulders with the first shot and it slowed her way down. Broken shoulders kept her from moving far, then another through the brain finished it...

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This deer was one shot through the neck, lights out. There is no getting away with one through the spine, anywhere...

[Linked Image]



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Be nice to heaar from Klik up in AK as well. I have heard some of his stories with the 45-70 on larger game.

Thanks, Shrap. Good report.


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i've shot a lot of whitetails with the 45/70 using factory 300 hp's, 405 sp's and 350 LE. all the deer ran but died in a short distance with minimal damage to meat. all were shot through the boiler room. if you want to drop something in its tracks, you need more velocity.


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Originally Posted by the_shootist
Be nice to heaar from Klik up in AK as well. I have heard some of his stories with the 45-70 on larger game.

Thanks, Shrap. Good report.


Thanks everyone for the replies, exactly what I was hoping for. I have not hear of Klik up in Ak. Sounds like he is the man to talk to about bigger game. I hope he chimes in.

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I think his user name is Klikitarik or similar. He uses a 45-70 in a Ruger #1, IIRC. Do a name search and send him a pm.


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Well, that was a rather gentle "call out" grin (I just happened on this thread for no particular reason other than the 45-70 label on it.)

As for the effectiveness of the modern 45-70 when applied to bigger animals, I guess my own experience is that it is certainly more than the 30-30 when it comes to penetration and time involved in terminating life. Is it a 'stopping round'? I'd have to say no more or less so than a 30-06, 338 Win Mag, or 375 H&H. For that, shot placement with adequate bullets is really the only thing that matters.

As noted by others I've killed moose with my #1 and it works with at least as much certainty as any 30 or higher caliber I've used. Certainly I had no complaints about about driving stubby 300 grain bullets through both shoulders with either C&C or copper type bullets. And a single 350 (Northfork) was an immediate show-stopper when I ran one through the shoulder and chest of a running bear (at over 200 yards). Then again, I made a very similar shot on the first bear I killed (with a 375 H&H) and it - a small brown- was floored but recovered to absorb four more hits with the same rifle.

I often keep a Marlin lever handy when we go picnicking, berry-picking, or swimming in coastal areas where bears roam. I use it with the same combination of confidence and humility that I do when I carry anything else. The 45-70 isn't magic, nor is it a paltry round by any means. What you do with what you have matters most.


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Thank KLIK that is the answer I was looking for. I have noticed a few Alaska State Troopers going to the 45-70 instead of shotguns.

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I don't have anywhere near Shrapnel's experience with these old guns and cartridges, and have no thoughts on 2000 fps min for hydrostatic shock. This 543 gr bullet from a 45-70 fueled by charcoal at 1100 fps put a plenty big enough hole in this mule deer to let the air and blood out in short order. +/-150 yd shot and he went 60-70 yds with no major bones hit. I was surprised how effective it worked though did have some initial reservations not using a flat nosed bullet.
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I have experience on exactly 2 deer with a 45-70. Both with a Hornady 300 HP at 2000 fps. One was near 100 yards the other was 65 yards. Both double lunged behind the shoulder. The 100 yard deer ran about 15-20 yards and the 65 yarder went down like the earth was jerked out from under it.


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Every deer I've shot with the .45-70, with either jacketed or HardCast lead, has gotten "the leaks" pretty bad.

Hawk Driver, I've used/am using that bullet, too. About evenly split with DRTs and runners, depending on where I hit them. I'm not running mine as fast as you, I generally use the Speer Unicor to go that fast, and then I go straight to 2200 fps. But that Hornady at an intermediate speed is a hammer!

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I have shot lots of animals with the 45-70 and similar BPC rifles, and they still don't have the effect that high velocity expanding bullets do. You have to be careful as even a deer can go quite a ways with a hole in the lungs...

[Linked Image]

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[img]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Bears/100_1026.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Deer/114_1446.jpg[/img]


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Thanks SHRAPNEL, just the info I was looking for. I was wondering the instant effects on large animals. The little Sharpes carbine you took the pronghorn with, is the same model I took a bison with. I used an original 50-70 round loaded in the 1880's.

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I use the Remington 405gr JSP launched at 1800fps from a Marlin Guide Gun. I took a Bull Elk at 18yds that was running at me. The bullet penetrated a total of 30", having busted through spine, expanding to .9", and coming to rest in the grass bag. One very dead Elk. I kindof doubt he'd have died any faster with a ScreamingDeathMagnum.

I don't use cast bullets because unless they are really soft they tend to be hole drillers.

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Originally Posted by stuvwxyz
I have vast experience in deer and elk hunting with about any caliber from 22 rimfire to 416 Taylor. I have never been around a 45-70 very often and am not convinced of its stopping power on charging game. I have shot 2 mule deer bucks is all with a 45-70 and both were spinal cord neck shots and they dropped on the spot. But that reaction would happen if shot with a 22 as well. Experts state that a minimum 2000 fps impact velocity is required to create hydrostatic shock. Few hot 45-70 loads reach the minimum at muzzle. The one and only deer I shot with a 12 gauge foster slug was shot between the eyes at 3 feet away (it was a road cripple needing to be killed). I missed the brain by an inch and it only blinked and looked at me, NO knockdown factor. What I am asking the members here, is to tell their experience's with the big slugs of the 45-70 caliber and what the animals reaction was. I read years ago that the 30-30 was a far faster killing cartridge on moose in Alaska than the old 45-70's were. Of course this was in the old days with the old military loads. I am not interested in head and spinal shots as about any caliber will give the same results as the 45-70. What are your experiences?


There are an awful lot of us here in Alaska that carry 45-70's with the intention of fending off big nasties if the need arises. Mine is an 1895 Marlin, 20 inch barrel and stoked with 405 grain Remington FP's clocking 1750 fps.

I don't know if it will stop a charging bear. I'm betting it will cause that's what I carry. That load did a great job on a moose several years ago. Partner had put two pretty ineffectual shots into this bull before I hit him broadside at 35 yards. He expired very quickly with chunks of lung hanging out the exit wound. I shot a mule deer doe many years back with similar results with that load.

I don't often hunt with it but it is my fishing, berry picking, meat packing, have it in camp and handy at all times rifle.


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Yes there are a lot of us in Alaska that use this same rifle and load. I use a marlin 1895 GG ported and a 1895 SBL SS both 45/70. All of my loads are between 350 and 425 grain. Some are hard cast, some soft round nose.

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I have shot one white tail with 45-70. This doe was at about 25 yards looking at me. I held center of chest and pulled the trigger. She went down on her knees hard with a blat. Then got up and ran out of sight. I thought. "Dead deer walking" smoked a cigar to savor the moment and then went to dress her out. I never found her. Her very scant blood trail ( a few drops now and then) took me over a mile, over a mountain, and deep into a swamp.

I killed a bull moose with 45-70. Same position. Moose was facing me maybe 75 yards away. My first shot hit in the chest veered right, broke a shoulder and lodged there (NO VITALS!). Moose turned around and ran away. I dropped him with the Texas heart shot.

45-70 is not my first choice for "stopping power"


Last edited by Mssgn; 03/19/15.

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Mssgn,
can I ask what ammo you used for both animals.
Erich


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