Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 45-70 hunting questions

I have vast experience in deer and elk hunting with about any caliber from 22 rimfire to 416 Taylor. I have never been around a 45-70 very often and am not convinced of its stopping power on charging game. I have shot 2 mule deer bucks is all with a 45-70 and both were spinal cord neck shots and they dropped on the spot. But that reaction would happen if shot with a 22 as well. Experts state that a minimum 2000 fps impact velocity is required to create hydrostatic shock. Few hot 45-70 loads reach the minimum at muzzle. The one and only deer I shot with a 12 gauge foster slug was shot between the eyes at 3 feet away (it was a road cripple needing to be killed). I missed the brain by an inch and it only blinked and looked at me, NO knockdown factor. What I am asking the members here, is to tell their experience's with the big slugs of the 45-70 caliber and what the animals reaction was. I read years ago that the 30-30 was a far faster killing cartridge on moose in Alaska than the old 45-70's were. Of course this was in the old days with the old military loads. I am not interested in head and spinal shots as about any caliber will give the same results as the 45-70. What are your experiences?

I've shot one critter with a .45-70 using a 405 gr. Rem or 400 gr. Speer bullet, I don't remember which, at 1680 fps. It was a smallish black bear going past me at 9 yards. The bullet entered high on the shoulder and exited low in the ribs. The exit hole was the size of an Eisenhower dollar. The bear rolled down hill about fifteen yards and never moved. I've since shot bears with the .30-'06, 8x57, and 350 Rem Mag. All worked well, but none as spectacularly as that one with the .45-70. A small sample, but that's how it happened.

I have shot 3 elk, 1 deer, and 1 bear with the 45-70 with 405g cast. the elk were all heart lung shots from ranges between 40 to 120 yards and ran from 15 to 60 yards. bear was heart shot. bang, flop. deer was shot last Friday afternoon at 60 feet. bang flop. there is nothing in the lower 48 I would hesitate to use the 45-70 on. if actually after a griz I would use 550g craters.
the great thing about the 45-70 with a wide flat nose bullet is you have close to if not a bigger than 1/2 inch hole starting out. remember if you place a hole in the plumbing the blood pressure goes to zero and everything shuts down. never bought into the hydrostatic shock business.

There is a lot to be desired with the 45-70 as a game killer. I have killed lots of game with those older Black Powder cartridges and the way they performed best was larger frontal area on the bullet and larger bullets with more powder.

I love those guns and cartridges, but they basically put holes in things and where the hole is, is what determines how quickly the animal dies.

I have shot buffalo with them and they will completely penetrate 2 buffalo if you have them lined up. Momentum is the driving force with those big slow bullets and penetration is the result.

If you do hit the spine, heart or brain, it will put them down quickly. Especially the brain and spine. A heart shot is certainly lethal, but I have seen buffalo go quite a ways with a bullet through the heart.

Shot through the lungs with a high velocity expanding bullet, an animal will drop much quicker than with the 45-70.

I think the best way to put game on the ground with the 45-70 is an immediate kill shot or structural damage. A 45-70 will certainly damage bone structure and that is hard on animals.

There is more than one reason that hunting cartridges have changed over the years and velocity with expanding bullets do have the advantage.

This 45-70 model 1886 with 405 grain hard cast bullets, completely penetrated this bull and went through another cow and hit a third buffalo in the leg. Youj can't shoot at them lined up like that.



I put 4 rounds through this bull and he didn't drop from any one of them and I was using Hornady 500 grain dangerous game bullets on him. the 4th round did tip him over, but that was a 405 grain cast bullet through the back of his head, into his brain...




This cow was the same thing, but I shot her through the shoulders with the first shot and it slowed her way down. Broken shoulders kept her from moving far, then another through the brain finished it...




This deer was one shot through the neck, lights out. There is no getting away with one through the spine, anywhere...

Be nice to heaar from Klik up in AK as well. I have heard some of his stories with the 45-70 on larger game.

Thanks, Shrap. Good report.

i've shot a lot of whitetails with the 45/70 using factory 300 hp's, 405 sp's and 350 LE. all the deer ran but died in a short distance with minimal damage to meat. all were shot through the boiler room. if you want to drop something in its tracks, you need more velocity.

Thanks everyone for the replies, exactly what I was hoping for. I have not hear of Klik up in Ak. Sounds like he is the man to talk to about bigger game. I hope he chimes in.

I think his user name is Klikitarik or similar. He uses a 45-70 in a Ruger #1, IIRC. Do a name search and send him a pm.

Well, that was a rather gentle "call out" (I just happened on this thread for no particular reason other than the 45-70 label on it.)

As for the effectiveness of the modern 45-70 when applied to bigger animals, I guess my own experience is that it is certainly more than the 30-30 when it comes to penetration and time involved in terminating life. Is it a 'stopping round'? I'd have to say no more or less so than a 30-06, 338 Win Mag, or 375 H&H. For that, shot placement with adequate bullets is really the only thing that matters.

As noted by others I've killed moose with my #1 and it works with at least as much certainty as any 30 or higher caliber I've used. Certainly I had no complaints about about driving stubby 300 grain bullets through both shoulders with either C&C or copper type bullets. And a single 350 (Northfork) was an immediate show-stopper when I ran one through the shoulder and chest of a running bear (at over 200 yards). Then again, I made a very similar shot on the first bear I killed (with a 375 H&H) and it - a small brown- was floored but recovered to absorb four more hits with the same rifle.

I often keep a Marlin lever handy when we go picnicking, berry-picking, or swimming in coastal areas where bears roam. I use it with the same combination of confidence and humility that I do when I carry anything else. The 45-70 isn't magic, nor is it a paltry round by any means. What you do with what you have matters most.

Thank KLIK that is the answer I was looking for. I have noticed a few Alaska State Troopers going to the 45-70 instead of shotguns.

I don't have anywhere near Shrapnel's experience with these old guns and cartridges, and have no thoughts on 2000 fps min for hydrostatic shock. This 543 gr bullet from a 45-70 fueled by charcoal at 1100 fps put a plenty big enough hole in this mule deer to let the air and blood out in short order. +/-150 yd shot and he went 60-70 yds with no major bones hit. I was surprised how effective it worked though did have some initial reservations not using a flat nosed bullet.

I have experience on exactly 2 deer with a 45-70. Both with a Hornady 300 HP at 2000 fps. One was near 100 yards the other was 65 yards. Both double lunged behind the shoulder. The 100 yard deer ran about 15-20 yards and the 65 yarder went down like the earth was jerked out from under it.

Every deer I've shot with the .45-70, with either jacketed or HardCast lead, has gotten "the leaks" pretty bad.

Hawk Driver, I've used/am using that bullet, too. About evenly split with DRTs and runners, depending on where I hit them. I'm not running mine as fast as you, I generally use the Speer Unicor to go that fast, and then I go straight to 2200 fps. But that Hornady at an intermediate speed is a hammer!

I have shot lots of animals with the 45-70 and similar BPC rifles, and they still don't have the effect that high velocity expanding bullets do. You have to be careful as even a deer can go quite a ways with a hole in the lungs...













[img]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Bears/100_1026.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Deer/114_1446.jpg[/img]

Thanks SHRAPNEL, just the info I was looking for. I was wondering the instant effects on large animals. The little Sharpes carbine you took the pronghorn with, is the same model I took a bison with. I used an original 50-70 round loaded in the 1880's.

I use the Remington 405gr JSP launched at 1800fps from a Marlin Guide Gun. I took a Bull Elk at 18yds that was running at me. The bullet penetrated a total of 30", having busted through spine, expanding to .9", and coming to rest in the grass bag. One very dead Elk. I kindof doubt he'd have died any faster with a ScreamingDeathMagnum.

I don't use cast bullets because unless they are really soft they tend to be hole drillers.

There are an awful lot of us here in Alaska that carry 45-70's with the intention of fending off big nasties if the need arises. Mine is an 1895 Marlin, 20 inch barrel and stoked with 405 grain Remington FP's clocking 1750 fps.

I don't know if it will stop a charging bear. I'm betting it will cause that's what I carry. That load did a great job on a moose several years ago. Partner had put two pretty ineffectual shots into this bull before I hit him broadside at 35 yards. He expired very quickly with chunks of lung hanging out the exit wound. I shot a mule deer doe many years back with similar results with that load.

I don't often hunt with it but it is my fishing, berry picking, meat packing, have it in camp and handy at all times rifle.

Yes there are a lot of us in Alaska that use this same rifle and load. I use a marlin 1895 GG ported and a 1895 SBL SS both 45/70. All of my loads are between 350 and 425 grain. Some are hard cast, some soft round nose.

Erich

I have shot one white tail with 45-70. This doe was at about 25 yards looking at me. I held center of chest and pulled the trigger. She went down on her knees hard with a blat. Then got up and ran out of sight. I thought. "Dead deer walking" smoked a cigar to savor the moment and then went to dress her out. I never found her. Her very scant blood trail ( a few drops now and then) took me over a mile, over a mountain, and deep into a swamp.

I killed a bull moose with 45-70. Same position. Moose was facing me maybe 75 yards away. My first shot hit in the chest veered right, broke a shoulder and lodged there (NO VITALS!). Moose turned around and ran away. I dropped him with the Texas heart shot.

45-70 is not my first choice for "stopping power"

Mssgn,
can I ask what ammo you used for both animals.
Erich

Cast lead 405 grain bullet over 46 grains of IMR3031.

Picture of the bullet recovered from my moose attached and a photo of the moose that may have me retract my statement - the picture shows what sure as heck looks like an entry wound on the front of the shoulder which would be entirely consistent with where I found the bullet behind the broken shoulder. I could have sworn I hit him in the chest but pictures don't lie, maybe I was just a little bit twitching pulling the trigger on my first moose! Can't blame the bullet.

Those photos of Shrapnel look like a time warp with fast forward to the present. He wasn't that bad looking in his youth...

I've killed a few deer with .45-70's, mostly with 300 gr. Horn at around 1,850 fps in past years.

My current primitive weapon is a 30" BPCR and I shoot 250 gr. TSX's over Vv 120 at 2,550 fps. That's a Barnes 1895 load and the 1885 action is a lot stronger, so it could go faster, but that load seems to work.

The last BPCR kill was a 130# doe walking across a food plot. I hit her behind the shoulder and she ran 20 yds., blowing blood like a fire hose. The TSX had opened and blew a huge exit wound, pulverizing her heart.

A young hog (20#'s or so) was shot at around 100 yds. with that rig last year. It blew lungs and chest tissue thru the far chest wall. When the hog was cleaned, the far chest wall looked like a cracked window pane, with fracture lines extending out from the large exit hole. Evidently the chest wall was bowed out enough by the bullet, ribs were fractured in multiple directions. I had never seen that before.

BTW, I don't know how well the 250 TSX would penetrate in a big animal, but it sure is bad at 2,500 fps on soft targets.

DF

Although I have only killed two bull elk with a 45-70,405 Rem JFP neither went over 20 a yards It will kill elk ,and as with just about any chambering of any caliber you can always find limitations. I also kill elk with a 375gr Maxiball or Powerbelt. Same deal.

I have killed elk with about 6 different chamberings in different calibers. Truthfully, I can't say I see a big difference in the killing ability of any of them. I don't purposely put bullets in bone, but putting a bullet in the boiler room kills them fast enough for me.

A lot of guys over think this elk killing business. I think a 45-70 is more than enough to kill any deer in North America.

that pretty much is similar to my experience with a 45/70, and for that matter a 458 win, on elk

The shape of the penetrating bullet really matters...along with the speed. This 340 Weatherby bullet worked much less quickly than have any of the expanding 45-70 bullets I've used, all on moose. Speed and bullet shape work to create displacement and trauma. Bullets that slip through flesh without much displacement are not the most effective.

well the rifling engraving that bullet (posted above) seems to indicate it was fired, but the lack of ANY obvious impact distortion or expansion would leave me too conclude it failed to expand on impact, thus Id be looking too avoid using anything similar in design or that brand of projectile in the future on elk in any 340 wby I owned.
Ive used the cast 350 and cast 405 weight bullets and the 405 jacketed remingtons on both deer and elk in the past, and while If yet to have a Dead on impact shot with a 45/70 I,ve also never had one go very far either

I've killed three elk in my life,all with a Sharps. Two were with a 45-70, and one with a 45-110. Both rifles used the same bullet, a 510 grain round nosed paper patched bullet cast at 30-1 driven by black powder The velocity on the 45-70 was 1190 fps and the 45-110 gave 1310. Both rifles gave complete pass through penetration through both shoulders and about a 1 1/2 inch exit hole out of the opposite shoulder. All three elk were down in less than 30 yards. No blood shot meat, you could eat right up to the hole.

I've not downed anything with my 70 yet, but some U-Tube video's convince me it's a serious killer. Modern slugs in modern magnums explode and stop after passing though 3 or 4 gallon milk jugs. A 45-70 and a corresponding heavy slug will do 20 to 23 jugs.

I do pack one as a dark timber elk rifle. With 405's running around 1,750 fps, I fear nothing in the America's.

I've killed one whitetail with the 45-70 using a 405 gr. LBT WFNGC bullet.

She was running straight across in front of me about probably 50 yards. At the shot I saw what looked like her hide being popped like a bedsheet being straightened, a sort of ripple going from back to front before she ran behind some brush. I waited for her to come out and sure enough I saw what I thought was her and several others run across the creek and on up the bank on the other side.

I went down to where I had shot at her looking for some sign of a hit or where I might find the bullet had hit. Seeing nothing, I looked toward where she had run to see her laying dead about 10 or 15 yards away. I had hit her with a broadside Texas heart shot through both hams.

I don't recommend taking that shot, but it was effective for me and didn't ruin much if any meat.

I've killed somewhere over 150 feral pigs with the 45-70 using mainly 300g HPs with a fair number of 400g FPs, some 350g FPs and a handful of 325g FTX. No deer yet, and obviously no bears down here.

All my kills have used jacketed bullets. Only a small handful have been more than 125y or so, with most under 50.

They knock pigs of all sizes over with alacrity. At least as much as the 338 WM, 30-06, 308 and 270 I generally use when not carrying the 45-70.

Don't know if that helps. In any case I recommend the cartridge for even the biggest pigs.

Only an experience of 1; but, have shot 1 whitetail with a 350 gr. Hornady jacketed RN at about 40 yards. It is the only deer I have shot that I saw the entrance hole as the deer stumbled away. The deeer fell to the shot, got up and leaped once , got up stumbled again after 1 leap and laid down dead about 50 yds. away. This from a Ruger #1, with a load of 4895 that did not exceed Springfield pressures. Had about an inch of rain overnight and could still backtrack the blood trail from where it laid to where I shot. I was impressed, but have used small fast calibers since; no failures, but no deer that could not have been taken with the 45/70. Maybe it's time to start using the 45/70 again.

Have only killed 3 deer with the 45-70. First was a medium buck running thru a bottom after being flushed by my B-I-L. I led it like a bird and touched off the 300 gr Horn HP when everything lined up. The buck crumpled on the shot and slide a few feet on his chin. I stayed put til Randy got there and had him stand where the buck was when the trigger broke. I then walked straight to him and found two small saplings that had holes in them. The Hornady still hit right where I aimed....through the shoulders.

Next was a trotting doe that was hit in the spine. She got up on her front legs and I put another through her neck. That was with a Remington 405 gr FP. The last was a doe feeding through the woods. Hit her through the chest with a 405 gr hard cast boolit. She made the old 50 yd death dash leaving a red paving stripe trail.

In retrospect, I can say that these three results were not very different than many similar hits with most standard cartridges and jacketed soft point bullets.

I don't like front chest shots unless it's a high velocity type of load, but even still I would rather shoot through both shoulders or lungs with a side shot.

I've used a Marlin 45-70 1895 guide gun to shoot a pretty wide variety of game, over the years. With the exception of one black bear, everything else was killed with 300gr. nosler partition bullets, which, unfortunately, they quit making. I've shot hogs, bear, and 7 head of African plains game, in RSA, back in 2008. Here's a few pics.

Here's a couple more








maddog

Nice photos!

Not bad for an "obsolete" round!

Great photos there Maddog!!!

I have killed one whitetail and one antelope with my .45-70 a Marlin 1895.. 350 Horn. Both animals took a high shoulder shot, so they dropped right there..

Here is a couple pics of the other two critters I took, on my 08 plains game safari. An impala and a blesbok.








maddog

Gunner500 answered ALL dumbassed questions as to whether the 45/70 "is enuff gun" for dang near anything

I gotta agree with you on this one, Jim!!

I expect you've got plenty of good answers on this thread already, stu, but just to gild the lily a bit, let me add my dos centavos.

I've shot about a dozen white-tailed deer and 1 pig with slow, heavy bullets, mostly with .50 or .45 cal muzzleloaders, but 3-4 with .45-70's. Out of that bunch, I've had two DRT's: a doe shot with a .50 cal 295 gr PowerBelt bullet, and a spike buck shot with a 350 gr .45-70 factory load. All the rest ran anywhere from 25 to 150 yards, then dropped dead.

I have no problem with the performance of any of those bullets, and I have no problem considering the 45-70 adequate for hunting any species in North America.



Now, hold on thar, Bubba-Louey!!!

There is a HUGE difference between a hunting rifle/caliber and a stopping rifle/caliber. If you're talking about stopping a charging piece of Dangerous Game, you're talking about a specialized branch of the hunting sports. That specialized sport is practiced most commonly in the place where most of the planet's Dangerous Game species live, i.e., Africa. And even then, there are two levels of DG: thin-skinned (lion and leopard) and thick-skinned (elephant, rhino, and Cape buffalo).

What the African PH's will tell you almost to a man that you can hunt anything up to and including elephant with a rifle of the 375 H&H class, but that a stopping rifle for thick-skinned DG should be a big bore (.40 caliber at least, and preferably larger) firing a 400+ grain solid bullet at 2200-2300 fps. There are all kinds of theories for why this is the "magic" combination, but the fact is that no one really knows why that is the case. But it works, and it's been working for 100+ years, so no one argues with it any more.

As long as you put the bullet where it will kill the incoming animal, that is. This means the brain or high spinal cord, of course. You can shoot a charging elephant with a 450 gr bullet in a suitable caliber and still be killed by it, as PH Kevin Gibson demonstrated earlier this year. So shot placement still counts, regardless of caliber.

For thin-skinned DG, however, many PH's go much lighter, using anything from the 375 H&H with a 300 gr soft bullet to a 12-gauge shotgun stoked with 00 buckshot, depending on the situation.

Since thick-skinned DG is a rarity in North America, we're really talking about the latter category: bears. And a modern 45-70 loaded with hot ammo (appropriate to the action and steel used in manufacture) fits the bill, ballistically speaking.

A modern Browning or Winchester 1886 is easily capable of withstanding 50,000 PSI pressures. This means you can load 'em up considerably. Extreme example: I've worked up loads for ~400 gr cast bullets at velocities above 2100 fps. That's close to 4000 fpe, and awfully close to the level of an African express stopping rifle. This load recoils immoderately in a light rifle, you need a fullsize rifle to tame the kick... but if that isn't a North American stopping rifle and load, I don't know what is.

Personally, I don't think there's much I wouldn't be afraid to take on in North America with a good lever action 45-70 with a good 300 gr soft point bullet at 1900-2000 fps.