I cannot imagine the 7-08 would recoil much less than the 308 win, was wondering if there was enough difference in the two to justify a 7-08 over the 308 in a Kimber Montana. I reload so bullets of even 110 grains are available in 30 cal.
I would download a copy of PointBlank software (it's free) and work the load comparison out. There is not going to be much difference between a 7-08 load and a 308 load of the same bullet weight on paper. However, there can be a LOT of difference between two rifles with similar or identical chamberings. The fit of the stock, the weight of the rifle, the recoil pad etc. are all going to contribute a lot to what and how you feel things.
I would start with the bullets you want to shoot, if you want 150s and up go with the .308, if you wants 140s or less, go with the 7-08. I had a Montana in 308 and it's now a 7-08. The .308 was definitely more sporty with heavier bullets. If I had to choose just one to hunt with I'd go 7-08. Use lighter bullets and it's more pleasant to shoot at the range.
I have a brand new 308 that would have been a 7-08 if I didn�t have 1000�s and 1000�s of rounds of ammo, brass and bullets. The 308 is a good round, but ballistics wise the 7mm is the better choice.
My 21� lilja barreled hawkeye.
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
I had a 29-08 with a 20" barrel- I was a model 7 and the magazine length really hampered performance with those super long high bc .29 projectiles. 29-08 is a natural on a forbes action, or nula. The 3" magazine box really lets the sexy 29 really stretch her legs. The 159 grn hitari sc monolithics at 2980 are the definitive game load. For hunting. Everything.
That said, I never feel undergunned when I have a 308 or 7mmo8.
I am just gonna load Barnes 110s in my 308 Montana. You guys are not very supportive of my bad habit of buying and selling guns
If you're just going to shoot deer and schit it won't matter.
If you want to shoot distance you gotta look at BC and such. For example the 162gr. Gay Max has a BC of .625. To achieve that in the .308 you'd have to move up to the 208gr.
More recoil, mag restrictions, blah, blah, blah.
Just depends what you want it for.
Travis
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Bullets like the 130 TTSX and 155 Scenar have brought some new coolness to the .308win in recent years. It's always been a reliable workhorse of a cartridge, but not the flattest shooting thing going from the NATO case. Ammo is everywhere and components are good. I've killed a good bit of stuff with the .308win and never found it lacking regarding results.
The 7mm-08 seems to be a bit better design on that case regarding bore/capacity and the ability to shoot slightly lighter bullets of a comparable BC/SD at slightly higher speeds with a touch less recoil. Like Flave says, there are more uber-BC options in the 7mm-08 that can be pushed at usable speeds. Components/ammo are not quite as plentiful.
For medium-game use, I think the 7mm-08 is the better option for the handloader while the .308win is the better option for the guy buying factory ammo.
I cannot imagine the 7-08 would recoil much less than the 308 win, was wondering if there was enough difference in the two to justify a 7-08 over the 308 in a Kimber Montana. I reload so bullets of even 110 grains are available in 30 cal.
I've run 3 or 4 Kimber MT 308's and currently have a 7-08 Kimber MT. They kick the same with equal bullet weights.
I use "standard" (non-monolithic) bullets in all my rifles, and all of them are loaded to tackle elk... for elk I like an SD of at least 0.248, so I run 165's in the 308 MT and 140's+ in the 7-08.
With any powder, the 140's and 150's in the 7-08 kick noticeably less than the 165's in the 308.
But 160's in the 7-08 MT get your attention like the 165's do in the 308. Etc., etc.
For me, 150's don't bother me in the 308 MT, but 165's are starchy. I'd certainly not hesitate to run lighter 125-130 grain bullets in the 308 for deer and you'll find them more enjoyable than heavier bullets.
A far as their effectiveness on elk sized game, the 7-08 and 308 are two peas in a pod when running similar bullets. This year I used 150 NBT's in the 7-08 and had great performance on a mature bull. Definitely similar performance to a 168 NBT from the 308.
Aside, 308 brass and loaded ammo are substantially easier to find in this part of the world than 7-08. Not that that should be any surprise.
Best,
Brad
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Recoil still doesn't bother me much. Never has. Gotta be a real big boomer before I complain much. I hate muzzle brakes more than I hate recoil.
I recently shot 40-50 rounds of 300 RUM off the hood of a truck just wearing a T-shirt. It didn't bother me a bit. Rifle was a 700 BDL with a Monarch on it.
Maybe one day I will become more recoil sensitive. I think I may finally be starting to hate extreme cold a bit more, but still hunt in it anyway
..... Bobin you finally conceding the 28-08 is better than a JOC?
65: No....
Paper ballistics aside, the 270 is necromancy, lucky charms....I carry it, I see BIG DEER,even if i don't sometimes get them,like last week. I am somewhat superstitious.
My half dozen or so lifetime bucks have all fallen to the 270. But the very light carry weight and SS construction of the Montana is almost irresistible,especially here in New England where the rifle is in your hands, all day, every day.....or should be.
What brought you back to the 7-08 Kimber MT configuration? Congratulations on the Bull Elk.
WW, just wanted to play with the 7-08 a bit. Haven't loaded for one since 1999. This one behaves just like the other. It doesn't seem particularly fond of any 140's but bug holes 150 Ballistic Tips. Preferring heavier bullets seems like a trait a lot of 7-08's have.
I've got a 308 MT barrel and will eventually turn it back...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Bobin, no arguement from me, run many 708s and 270s, and never not liked any of them
Brad, my next, I mean if I get another 708, these will be the mainstay on deer:
140 AB 120 TTSX
Those will also double on Elk as you know, however I too will choose a 150 BT for Elk. Rather less recoiling lighter bullets for paper thru deer/hogs. I ran 150 Yellows in my former 270s and my Sons now. They always shot more accurately than 130s and were hell on deer, with less bloodshot meat. It and the 154 are too oft overlooked bullets for the mild 7s. Better BC than lighter pills but stouter jacket than say an Amax.
If you're just going to shoot deer and schit it won't matter.
If you want to shoot distance you gotta look at BC and such. For example the 162gr. Gay Max has a BC of .625. To achieve that in the .308 you'd have to move up to the 208gr.
More recoil, mag restrictions, blah, blah, blah.
Just depends what you want it for.
Travis
I was shooting 120's at 3000-3100 fps (NBT & TTSX) out of a Montana. Now shooting 162 GayMax at a mild 2600fps. Even at 2600, the 162 from the little Montucky is pretty dang good in the wind at extended ranges.
Recoil of the 120's and 162 seem the same to me, shooting prone. Calcs show the 162 have ~8% more recoil. I don't notice it.
The 162 load does seem a little easier to shoot/control. I swear the 120's had more hop off the pack.
The 162 has a heck of a jump to the lands though...
I've run 3 or 4 Kimber MT 308's and currently have a 7-08 Kimber MT. They kick the same with equal bullet weights.
I use "standard" (non-monolithic) bullets in all my rifles, and all of them are loaded to tackle elk... for elk I like an SD of at least 0.248, so I run 165's in the 308 MT and 140's+ in the 7-08.
With any powder, the 140's and 150's in the 7-08 kick noticeably less than the 165's in the 308.
But 160's in the 7-08 MT get your attention like the 165's do in the 308. Etc., etc.
For me, 150's don't bother me in the 308 MT, but 165's are starchy. I'd certainly not hesitate to run lighter 125-130 grain bullets in the 308 for deer and you'll find them more enjoyable than heavier bullets.
A far as their effectiveness on elk sized game, the 7-08 and 308 are two peas in a pod when running similar bullets. This year I used 150 NBT's in the 7-08 and had great performance on a mature bull. Definitely similar performance to a 168 NBT from the 308.
Aside, 308 brass and loaded ammo are substantially easier to find in this part of the world than 7-08. Not that that should be any surprise.
Best,
Brad
makes perfect sense, Brad. Same motor, same payload...
I decided many years back, that for bigger game I'd stick with bullets above .250 b.c. But aside from a couple of black bear hunts have not done any real big game hunting in years.
For both whitetail and mulies I prefer a fast, expansive bullet, and pretty much ignore b.c. If I wanted every load to be elk capable your suggestions sound good, to me.
Happy Thanksgiving to all here. Much to be thankful for in our home...
I cannot imagine the 7-08 would recoil much less than the 308 win, was wondering if there was enough difference in the two to justify a 7-08 over the 308 in a Kimber Montana. I reload so bullets of even 110 grains are available in 30 cal.
Nope, but I think the justification goes the other way. The default is the 7mm-08, you have to find a reason to justify choosing .308 instead. There is one though it's kind of weird and maybe not for everyone. There are quite a few flat points meant for the .30-30 than can be shot from reduced loads in the .308. At one time there were a couple flat point 7mm bullets for the 7-30 Waters but I have not seen any on a shelf in at least a decade.
In the Montana ... well, I have a .308 and wish I'd bought a 7mm-08 or .257 Roberts instead. I'm not real happy with it. I shot it today at 300 and it just will not do better than 2MOA. .308 is just not as much cartridge as I hoped for and the accuracy I wanted is lacking. After 3, maybe 4 years, it'll be going up for sale soon.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
TOM I am curious about the .308 you own that does not group. Is it the cartridge or is it the rifle's inability to group. Or is it the cartridge rifle needs tweaking? I have been told Kimbers are not known to always being accurate. Correct me if I am wrong but is not a 7.62 mm a .308? 7 divided by 7.62 = 92% so we are looking at a 8% disparity in diameter.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
TOM I am curious about the .308 you own that does not group. Is it the cartridge or is it the rifle's inability to group. Or is it the cartridge rifle needs tweaking? I have been told Kimbers are not known to always being accurate. Correct me if I am wrong but is not a 7.62 mm a .308? 7 divided by 7.62 = 92% so we are looking at a 8% disparity in diameter.
I'm sorry but your words don't make sense.
What do you mean by "cartridge rifle"?
Where did you get the 7 to divide by 7.62???
If you'll clarify what you're asking, I'll try to answer.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Please advise regarding advantages of 29-08 over 7.31X51mm.
The kid at the local gun store told me the 7.31X51mm was better because it was 4G capable, could run both Apple OS and Android and the battery in the Red Dot scope would last longer. And because it it is metric, it is LEEDS compliant.
I've found both to be tractable, easy to load for and they both kill just fine. But the 308 barrel in the same contour will be a bazillionth of an ounce lighter. Frankly, you can't go wrong with either. Flip a coin, and if it lands on edge, buy BOTH.
Up hills slow, Down hills fast Tonnage first and Safety last.
If I were starting over from scratch, I'd give the 7/08 a hard look, but since I have a pile of brass and bazillions of .30 cal bullets, as well as several die sets, the .308 was an easy choice when I bought a new rifle.
Actually, after taking my first deer with a .243 Monday, it would be on the list too.
In the Montana ... well, I have a .308 and wish I'd bought a 7mm-08 or .257 Roberts instead. I'm not real happy with it. I shot it today at 300 and it just will not do better than 2MOA. .308 is just not as much cartridge as I hoped for and the accuracy I wanted is lacking. After 3, maybe 4 years, it'll be going up for sale soon. Tom [/quote]
I have seen a lot of rifles shooting 1" groups at 100 yards do 5" or 6" groups at 300 yards. What I'm saying is before you give up on it, try out several different loads at longer ranges. Odds are real high your .308 can shoot some load of five shots into 3" or less at 300.
thanks, I appreciate the thought, but I've been shooting this thing for 4 years and ... I know when I'm whupped. From my load notes it looks like I've put about 1100 rounds through it in load workup. This gun has always been very very load sensitive and somewhat unpredictable. Load development with it is a matter of chasing needles in haystacks. I can follow logical progressions but the results don't track predictably. Even when I get a good group in testing it's not repeatable. It shoots plenty well for 150-200 yards, not spectacular but adequate to make live deer into dead deer. Past that, forget it.
That's good enough for the things I've done so far but I want to try something new and the gun is holding me back.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Tom, I had a Kimber Classic 260 that was like your 308. I gave up on it after about 200 rounds. It got worse instead of better. I won't own another Kimber.
TOM - Maybe glass bedding. I had two rifles with the symptoms you ascribe to your 308. I spent a lot of time on load development, glass bedding resulted in most loads shooting OK to very well.
TOM I thought a .308 inch bullet was 7.62 mm. That would be an eight percent increase in diameter over a 7mm.
By cartridge rifle I meant the COAL, powder charge/type, primer, bullet that may be specific for that rifle to improve performance.
I think basically I am really ignorant and should have just read and not posted.
No, not exactly. There are 25.4 mm per inch. The metric designations are imprecise approximations. Some cartridges specify land diameter, some groove diameter. There is no requirement for truth in advertising ... or accuracy in cartridge designation.
So far as cartridge length, changing bullets, changing powders, etc ... I spent 4 years on this rifle doing that. It's a good idea but it's a "used" idea. Or "BTDT".
Reading is a good idea but eventually you have to jump in and get your feet wet. No problem at all!
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Thanks for the info! I have been startled by the level of technical stuff inside the heads of kids at local gun stores before, but this takes it to another level. I've gotta catch up....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Mule Deer, with your lack of current knowledge on this topic, and recognizing your astute observations about the current presidental administration earlier in this thread,maybe you should become a political correspondent rather than continue as an out of date middle aged gun writer!
So far as cartridge length, changing bullets, changing powders, etc ... I spent 4 years on this rifle doing that. It's a good idea but it's a "used" idea. Or "BTDT".
I won't tolerate finicky guns anymore.......I'm of the opinion that good guns are not too finicky, and will shoot a variety of loads well.
Finicky guns go down the road pretty quickly after doing the bedding correctly a couple of different ways & load testing with tried & true components & a few variants to be sure all the reasonable trials & have been tested.
I'm convinced there are more "bad" barrels around than one might suspect..........
but if you have a .257 roberts shouldn't you get a .30 instead of a .28? I mean the difference is only .023 with the .28 and it would be more with the .30?
Brad, re preference to heavy bullets in 708, had my former 700V with 4-14 AO tactical at 200 yds, shot a 3 shot group 7/8" w 100 Hornady HP over Varget in RP Brass. Chopped at 21" in a VLS unbedded stock, sans tits, floating.
Another trip same load shot about 5/8 @200yds as well. Baffling.
140s always shot better than 120s and 150 SMK were bugholing.
Those 100s btw had plenty jump. Never tried vmax but they were great in a 7 BR rifle. One gets surprises...
I've had 7 RM and 270s alike prefer 150 vs 140/130 BTs.
One of my hunting partners on an elk hunt here in Montana a couple years ago killed a good 6-point bull with one 120-grain Partition from a .257 Weatherby. But we won't discuss that either.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
One of my hunting partners on an elk hunt here in Montana a couple years ago killed a good 6-point bull with one 120-grain Partition from a .257 Weatherby. But we won't discuss that either.
Yup! Bullets matter.
Early days in Wyoming, before I had killed any elk myself, I recall digging 100 gr bullets from elk carcasses, first from the 250 Savage,and then from the Roberts and 25/06.
That I was working on dead elk sort of spoke for itself. About that time I started thinking something was not kosher with all the elk cartridge discussions I heard before then...
Anyway I am off to the range to play with a Roberts.
I always have the inferior cartridges! .308 win when I should have had a 7-08, now .257 Roberts when I should have had a .243, thankfully I sold my .270win a long time ago.
Easy choice: if you were born March 8, then the .308 is IT. If you were born July 8, then the 7-08 is IT. Born anywhere else flip a coin and be happy with the result.
I believe a sound argument can be made for the 7/08 if the rifle is for a small-statured man/youth/female, hunting whitetails. I say that because of the reputation of the Nosler 120gr BT. Of course, the 130gr Triple Shock is a great bullet as well in 30cal. A 308 is never a bad choice though. Neither is a 260, or a 243. The 7/08 is the smallest cartridge that should reasonably be considered for bears or plains game, IMO.
I know a guy who put together a 700 in 308, in a Lone Wolf stock with a Pacnor (IIRC) 16in braked barrel. It wore a 1-4X Leupold and was as handy as a pocket on a shirt. I watched her shoot a hundred rounds through it in a class and she was lightning fast and didn't miss much. She'd dumped a bevy of plains game in Africa the year prior with one round per critter and minimal tracking. Few of us need more.
4321 Tell it like it is man! And that is just if the whitetails are small, and shot at close range from a good rest! Even first year hunters are better off with at least an /06 for deer, and if they are really big deer, a 338 is not too big. People don't feel recoil when they shoot at animals anyway, and more power is always better to make up for a bad shot. For elk, the 338 is just the starting point, if used with premium bullets, especially if you are a non resident hunter who only has five or six days to hunt or if you haven't had time to practice a lot.
Practicing with a rifle is simply a waste of money and good ammunition. When you put the scope on the gun it is aligned with the bore in any quality firearm, once on the rifle its a simple point and click interface. Only a complete numb-nuts cannot pull a trigger when the 20 power scope is aligned to the animals midsection.
4321 Tell it like it is man! And that is just if the whitetails are small, and shot at close range from a good rest! Even first year hunters are better off with at least an /06 for deer, and if they are really big deer, a 338 is not too big. People don't feel recoil when they shoot at animals anyway, and more power is always better to make up for a bad shot. For elk, the 338 is just the starting point, if used with premium bullets, especially if you are a non resident hunter who only has five or six days to hunt or if you haven't had time to practice a lot.
Try to be a tad more flowery and verbose and you could be a gunwriter, at least you could've 20-30yrs ago. No-nothing gun salesman abetted by such gun-writers have sold countless uber-magnums to many such poor souls for decades.
Barsness started poking holes in the uber-magnum theory quite some time ago, to his credit.
I always liked Seyfried but he was always FOS about over-bore cannons, and even he's recanted in his later years. He used to love to poke fun at 308 lovers.
4321 Tell it like it is man! And that is just if the whitetails are small, and shot at close range from a good rest! Even first year hunters are better off with at least an /06 for deer, and if they are really big deer, a 338 is not too big. People don't feel recoil when they shoot at animals anyway, and more power is always better to make up for a bad shot. For elk, the 338 is just the starting point, if used with premium bullets, especially if you are a non resident hunter who only has five or six days to hunt or if you haven't had time to practice a lot.
Try to be a tad more flowery and verbose and you could be a gunwriter, at least you could've 20-30yrs ago. No-nothing gun salesman abetted by such gun-writers have sold countless uber-magnums to many such poor souls for decades.
Barsness started poking holes in the uber-magnum theory quite some time ago, to his credit.
I always liked Seyfried but he was always FOS about over-bore cannons, and even he's recanted in his later years. He used to love to poke fun at 308 lovers.
How cute. He's making fun of you and you don't get it.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
Maybe this belongs in another thread,but I have found that you have to read everything any gun writer wrote before you can try to pigeon-hole his preferences.
Guys like Seyfried,Barsness Shoemaker, etc may have preferences of their own, but are mindful of the virtues of a wide variety of cartridges.Seyfried, for example,used not only some very big bangers (various 300 and 338 magnums,the 416's,500 Nyati (sp?) etc.) but also wrote glowingly about the small 6.5's,the 270,7x57,280 etc. He actually used them all and was pretty realistic about their role in the scheme of things.
We tend to glean from these guys what we want to hear;so I don't so much see guys like Johnny B and Seyfried blowing holes in magnum performance (which in the right hands and circumstances can be fabulous and a big help),but helping those suffering caliber conundrums to understand the performance parameters of various cartridges.
If there were no virtue whatsoever to larger cartridges, we would safely take the 375 Winchester or 38-55 against Cape Buffalo and brown bear....I can think of better ways to spend my time.
My take on the role of gun writer, due to some years of doing what John Wootters called "real journalism" (he mostly excluded gun writing) is to try as much stuff as possible, and watch other people try stuff as well, so see what happens with them. And the best way to communicate both experiences is to explain the steps along the way.
One of my editors once observed that anybody who's only used the .30-06 can't write a useful article on the .30-06, no matter how long and wide their experience with the cartridge, because they have no perspective.
While some gun writers do only write about their personal tastes and prejudices, the only reason anybody would read their stuff is to confirm their similar tastes and prejudices. Quite a few writers (and not just gun writers) have made a good living doing exactly that. But if we really want to learn stuff, in any aspect of life, it's necessary to expand our education and experience.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
John, you're welcome. That's honestly the way I see things.
As an amateur hunter/shooter I (the rest of us)have the luxury of getting starry eyed and emotional over my (our) own choices of cartridges/bullets etc., but pro's like yourself don't have that luxury since you have to objectively analyze merits and drawbacks to lots of different cartridges.
I would expect that gun writers,being human, have their favorites,cartridges they prefer. But the readers expect objective analysis,which in turn requires wider experience....some of them any way.
I often thought, for example, that JOC got painted with the 270 by his readers as much as his own writings. Even though he used a bunch of different cartridges,he built a cult following around the cartridge,so his readers expected him to use it,even where he knew there was better stuff.
But if you read everything he wrote, you quickly realize where he felt it fit into the cartridge spectrum,and said so if you listened....but many readers didn't.
I cannot imagine the 7-08 would recoil much less than the 308 win, was wondering if there was enough difference in the two to justify a 7-08 over the 308 in a Kimber Montana. I reload so bullets of even 110 grains are available in 30 cal.
If you are going to hunt in non-dangerous game country, then the 7mm08 will do fine, but if you hunt in dangerous game country (e.g., grizzly or polar bear country), then I'd want the heaviest bullet in the 308 Winchester, or better yet, a 35 Whelen.
One of my editors once observed that anybody who's only used the .30-06 can't write a useful article on the .30-06, no matter how long and wide their experience with the cartridge, because they have no perspective.
While some gun writers do only write about their personal tastes and prejudices, the only reason anybody would read their stuff is to confirm their similar tastes and prejudices. Quite a few writers (and not just gun writers) have made a good living doing exactly that. But if we really want to learn stuff, in any aspect of life, it's necessary to expand our education and experience.
Goddammit John that was downright insightful........
Mule Deer, with your lack of current knowledge on this topic, and recognizing your astute observations about the current presidental administration earlier in this thread,maybe you should become a political correspondent rather than continue as an out of date middle aged gun writer!
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
4321 Tell it like it is man! And that is just if the whitetails are small, and shot at close range from a good rest! Even first year hunters are better off with at least an /06 for deer, and if they are really big deer, a 338 is not too big. People don't feel recoil when they shoot at animals anyway, and more power is always better to make up for a bad shot. For elk, the 338 is just the starting point, if used with premium bullets, especially if you are a non resident hunter who only has five or six days to hunt or if you haven't had time to practice a lot.
Try to be a tad more flowery and verbose and you could be a gunwriter, at least you could've 20-30yrs ago. No-nothing gun salesman abetted by such gun-writers have sold countless uber-magnums to many such poor souls for decades.
Barsness started poking holes in the uber-magnum theory quite some time ago, to his credit.
I always liked Seyfried but he was always FOS about over-bore cannons, and even he's recanted in his later years. He used to love to poke fun at 308 lovers.
How cute. He's making fun of you and you don't get it.
He's obviously a tard, what's your problem dope dealer?
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