Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting What are you looking to improve next time ?

Some yes, some no.

Before I spend two hours (because I am an incredibly slow typer on a phone) describing how clothing works when everyone may already know (though not with some of the responses), will you explain your (as in anyone can answer this) understanding of how base layers, outer garments, insulating layers, and water proof shells work?

I have to confess that I actually like Mountain house. There, I said it. I can't quite understand the complaints about it. But food in general is one of those things that I look at as an annoying necessity, and I know that many have a different viewpoint.

First off, I'm talking about temperatures where you have liquid precipitation.

My understanding of how the layers work is really my understanding of how they work for me and how I use them.

I normally have a pack and only wear the base/insulation layers I need, and try to minimize sweating. Extra layers stay in the pack. Besides layering I use zip-front base layers and shirt to ventilate, gloves, and hat that go on/off without stopping to fine tune heat retention. I stick to none or lightweight long john bottoms because you can't adjust those on the move.

Base layers should wick sweat away from the body, and both base and insulation layers need to be hydrophobic, not clump or collapse when wet, and insulate when wet.Insulation works by trapping dead air, and it generally works best without liquid clogging the pore space; water is not a good insulator.

Unless you're sitting on the ground where you lose heat through conduction, or at night where you lose it to the sky through radiation, you'll be losing most of your heat through convection and evaporation.

Good hydrophobic base and insulation layers will insulate when wet, although not as good as when dry, as long as you don't have significant convection, which equates to being cooled by moving air. If you've got wet insulation and can't get out of the wind you'll be losing heat through both convection and evaporation, not a good combination. So a windproof shell over wet insulation will cut down on both and keep you warm, and if you're already warm and/or on the move you obviously take off the shell and let the moisture evaporate.

If you have a windproof shell, you may as well make it waterproof or water resistant and not get your insulation soaked in the first place. It's easier to stay dry (most of the time) than to get dry.

Like a lot of others I don't put much stock in waterproof breathable shells for keeping inner layers from getting wet with sweat. Water vapor from your body is warm and the outer shell is cold so no matter how permeable you'll get some condensation in the shell.

The reason I carry a shell is to cut down on both convective and evaporative heat loss. And to keep my insulation as dry as possible.

The biggest drawback I have seen to Mountain House is the side effects after an hour or so.

If there are several Mountain House eating folks sharing your teepee, flammable gas buildup might get to the point where ignition is a real danger.

Back in the '70's a friend and I hiked the John Muir trail starting at Yosemite. First night bears ripped us off big time (did you know bears can polevault?), eating all the granola, gorp & other trail goodies but leaving all the Mountain House dinners some rice and the Tang. This left us eating primarily freeze dried dinners for the next 16 days and 240 miles. This may have been the real cause of the near extinction of the condor in that area as air quality was severely degraded. We lived but I went from 165# to 145.

If you remember to stay low to the ground (crawl in an out of the teepee) and not open your eyes too wide, Mountain House will serve as a simple means of keeping you alive for a short time.

Count me in for another Mountain House lover. It does do some interesting things to your guts after 2 straight months of it, though.

Tanner

I, too, like Mountain House, at least most flavors. A lot of it is lot better with just a little garlic salt and black pepper. (Of course, what isn't ... besides ice cream?) The Italian stuff can be improved a lot with a touch of parmesan cheese. You can make it a whole lot better without adding more than a couple ounces to your pack. The olive oil trick is one I haven't tried yet but should ... it'd be handy to have to fry a trout, too.

Tom

Grated parmesan and olive oil make the MH spaghetti with meat sauce downright edible.

To be clear I responded to you because you quoted me, not because I necessarily found that you were wrong. A rain shell is one of the last clothing items that I would leave on a backcountry trip.


Really the whole thing is about equilibrium. You, me, the environment- all want to keep everything balanced. In SE Alaska and environments like it there is no way to stay dry if you are outside. I have never been able to stay dry, no one that I have ever talked to has been able to stay dry, and there is no possible way with what we have to stay dry. In that environment all I care about is clothing that will keep me alive while I'm wet as there will be no comfort involved. For sure it may be possible to be less than sopping wet, but you will always be damp.

I don't think that is what you're referring to however. Instead I believe that you are referring to the Rocky Mtn. area of relatively low humidity, high elevations, and cold. If we are sitting still it is possible to stay mostly dry in this environment during an afternoon storm. If we move we will perspire and if we are wearing a "waterproof, breathable" outer layer at some point the wet from inside matches the wet from outside and then all we have is a windbreak, which may be very important. All this is to say that you are generally correct, however my initial post was more to do with 175rltw's assertion that rainwear isn't needed, though it sounds like he learned clothing and comfort from the same local that I initially did.

I use a simplified 4 layer system for about 95% of what I do.

Synthetic or merino wool Base layer- main purpose is to help move moisture away from skin, secondary is for added insulation.

General outer layer- Mainly used to protect base layer or skin. Can be synthetic, wool or Cotten depending on conditions.

Insulation layer- puff pants and jacket either synthetic or water resistant down- for warmth and to help provide a micro climate.

Waterproof, breathable shell- princapply used for those who particapate in exertive activities not to block rain, but to create a micro environment within the clothing system to "pull" moisture away from their skin and base layers.


Going back to the equilibrium thing, the base layer absorbs the moisture from direct contact. Next to skin is a high humidity environment. Between base layer and outside layer is a lower humidity environment. Because the air wants to equalize the high humidity next to skin is "pushed" in to the lower humidity of the general outer layer. The goal is to get the moisture as far away from the skin as possible, so while hiking in you soak yourself with sweat, your base layer is absorbing that moisture and pushing it to the outer layer. That's all good except that if it is cold enough- when you stop it can do to good a job and produce cold injuries. So the moment you stop throw the insulation (puff suit) top and bottom on AND the waterproof, breathable outer layer on even while still hot- in fact because you are still hot. You're using that heat to help "push" the moisture away. Again the environment between the general purpose layer and insulation layer is lower in humidity and will pull the moisture into the insulation layer. The humidity between the insulation layer and waterproof, breathable layer is again lower and will pull the moisture from the insulation layer into the waterproof, breathable layer and then out into the air.

There is of course more to it and while it seems that you know what you're doing, it is very clear from a lot of the responses in threads that a lot have no idea that clothing IS a system and understand how that system works.

Thanks Smokepole you saved me a lot of typing. I have made many multi-week trips to the Aleutians. Adak, Attu and Amchitka. Rarely did I see the sun and the wind never stopped. We mainly camped in abandoned WW2 structures and AEC era structures that leaked copiously. Old school polypro, pile, and 3 layer Goretex kept us alive and functional. This was in the '80s and gear is better now.

Fires are nice when possible but the Amchitka National Forest is a few Fir trees planted during WW2 that were about 3' tall when I was there.

My 1st meal of freeze dried was Chili to which that we didn't add enough water. I awoke in a new down bag that reeked beyond human levels.

mike r

Back to the OP's question, what I'm really looking to improve for next year;s hunt is my conditioning for humping loads up steep slopes by doing more of that and less work in the gym. The gym is good, but it'll only get you so far.

Its probably not what its doing, but rather what it is not doing. If you have a lot of gas it probably is because you are not getting enough enzymes to help your digestion.

If you are going to eat [bleep] on a long hunt, take along some vitamins and some enzyme tablets.

-Carry less stuff
-Eat more on the trip even if I am not hungry.
-Remember and apply lessons learned this year...thermals, terrain etc
-maybe lighter boots....Cabela's Miendls right now
-ballistic scope?
-and again, carry less stuff.
HD

Once you try it you may never go back. Very little weight penalty for tremendous benefit. Drying gear, warming up at bedtime, and generally just feeling very comfortable when it's miserable outside.

After my experience two seasons ago I decided this is the way to go. Got caught in a very heavy wet snowstorm on the hike in. Well after dark I realized we would not make it all the way to our main campsite. We were pretty cold and wet after working through willows and just the very heavy snow. Quickly cleared a spot, I set up the tent, another got some small branches and within about 15 minutes the tent was set up and we quickly fired up the stove. Within minutes we were warm and the gloves were hung over the stove to start drying. Burned it for about an hour and went to bed warm and comfortable and got a great nights sleep. Priceless.

Edit: as for improvement, I want the tipi with two doors. Much easier to get in and out of vice squeezing around the stove.

I use Mtn House for dinner and MREs for lunch. No need to carry a stove to heat water with the MRE. I'm lazy, and I think they are not too bad. I am still refining the snacks, but almonds, PowerBars, dried fruit, some gatorade packets and instant coffee are working pretty well. Getting the volume down to what is really required could be better. I need to consider rethinking my water purification. I have a Sawyer, but it says that freezing will damage the filter. Pretty hard to keep from freezing with temps in the teens. My camelback hose was frozen while hiking.

Hi

The two doors are really useful. Keeps you drier by not climbing around stuff, thus we do two doors in most designs.

For gravity style filters, I blow them out before I go to bed and stuff them in my sleeping bag. Not an infallible solution but it has served me well.

I've used the sawyers a lot, but if I I am not bivy hunting I may go back to the Platy system for ease of use / simplicity and speed

I've got a few things to address, but the biggest thing is to bring a spare ink pen. I lost mine the first day out and I needed one to fill out my tag after I shot my deer.

Many easterners have no experience with high desert and Rocky Mtn rain. Often it can be pouring rain at 60% humidity. The evaporation rate is pretty high when that happens and chill factor plummets. The rain water in the east can be like taking a shower but the rain in the Rockies can be 50F or colder, even in midsummer. The risk of hypothermia is far higher when the humidity is low because of that evaporation rate that pulls out your body heat. So, yes, staying dry and staying warm are HIGHLY related. It does speed drying stuff a bit, though.

I always bring just a 2-inch stub of a pencil. No moving parts, and nothing to leak. And in a pinch, you could even shave it into tinder.

Tanner,

Boy oh boy I can relate to several days in the rain. 4 years ago on a 11 day backpack Alaskan bear hunt it rained 9 days... HARD! The wetness just krept into everything, even with good gear. Cold wet days followed by damp cold nights. No way to dry out. At least I got a good bear.

Lefty

It took me a while to get used to that sort of wet, coming from Colorado... Awesome bear!

Tanner