Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 9mm performance improvements

My bad... It was Platt's upper arm that took the Silvertip first. I have a copy Anderson's book but its been awhile since I read it. I tend to absorb the salient points from these things and move on from them.



'Layman's assumption'... nice shot, but a miss.

I made no assertion about any heart shot being 'immediately fatal'- and you know perfectly well that's not what we're talking about here.



So you're asserting that a second, perforating (exit) wound to the chest wall would have no effect on the Platt's ability to press the fight for four minutes?

If the incoming shot had impacted his spinal column with enough remaining momentum to disrupt it- still no difference?

And is a 115 grain 9mm Silvertip or 230 grain 45 FMJ more likely to go 'completely through the chest' and accomplish either?

As I said earlier, I don't care what you or anybody else carries. Just don't tell me a 9mm JHP will do the same damage when intervening limbs are hit.

All I can say is I wouldn't hunt hogs with FMJ 9mm or 45.

But I would with flat nosed FMJ .40s&w and 10mm.

Sarge, please forgive my assumption as to your backstory vis a vis "layman" status. I drew an inference based on your statement that the bullet stopped short of the heart, a statement I've heard from some others (all laymen) who DO make the assumption that if that bullet had somehow reached the heart the fight would have stopped there.



Sorry, I made no such assertion. But I will make two points based on my experience with handgun bullet GSW's. First, handgun bullets, including 45 ACP bullets, are very unlikely to perforate the chest anteroposteriorly, and I've never seen one perforate completely travelling transversely.

Would an exit wound on the left side of Platt's chest have caused him to stop fighting more quickly? It's pure speculation on anyone's part. But my guess is that it would not have. Platt fought on despite wounds that would have caused most men to lie down and die, out of pure meanness, demon possession, or some other motivating force. A second pneumothorax due to an exit wound might have stopped him a bit sooner, yes, but looking at the timeline of his actions in this fight, Hanlon and Dove would almost certainly still have died even if he'd only fought half as long as he did.



Again, I did not mention anything about a spinal hit. Dove's bullet's trajectory was well anterior to the spine, and as such would not have hit it or damaged it.

But there is no question that bullets passing anteroposteriorly in the middle of the chest do often cause spinal injuries and sometimes spinal cord injuries as well. I have a couple of cases in my files, one a 9mm bullet, the other a 40 S&W bullet, that caused significant spinal cord injury and instantaneous paralysis.



As I wrote above, neither is likely to completely transect the chest. If that was my goal for some reason, I'd select a high-velocity 9mm 147 gr FMJ bullet, which has a higher SD than a 45 caliber 230 gr FMJ bullet, and is the proven "uber-penetrating" bullet in gelatin tests (45+ inches of penetration vs 25+ inches, to the best of my recollection).



And I don't care what you carry.

But I will tell you exactly that. We're talking about modern bonded handgun bullets, which expand reliably and hold together very reliably. Because of this and the significantly higher velocity of the 9mm, it could actually do more damage than the 45.

I've written this and been quoted on before, and the vast preponderance of wound ballistics research bears this out: among service caliber handgun bullets, the anatomic and physiologic damage caused by a bullet is far more a function of its path and what structures it passes through than the caliber or construction of the bullet itself.

This assertion does not extend to bullets/cartridges outside of the standard service caliber class. OIf you were to take that same 230 gr 45 ACP bullet and drive it out of a 460 Rowland handgun at 1300 fps (equivalent to a hot 9mm 115 gr load), it will vastly outperform any 9mm bullet/round in existence. But within the defined parameters of modern service/defense rounds, these generalizations do most certainly apply.

We will agree to disagree then. Thank you for the civil discussion.

Miami was over 20 years ago, ammunition has come a long way since then. I don't see how the Miami shooting is relevant from a terminal ballistic standpoint anymore. I don't know of any LE agencies who carry 1980's vintage Silvertips.

I am with doc rocket on this one, i don't see a lot of difference in any of the major handgun calibers.
But, and this is coming from someone who has liked the .45acp for a long time, there are atvantages to 9mm.
was fooling with a glock 17 yesterday. And a box of ranger T 135 grain ammo. That ammo is rated to 1250fps and about 15inches of penetrations, through denim, glass, and steel.
in that glock with a two round factory extension on the mag, and one in the chamber that is 20rounds.
And it isn't so heavy that it pulls your pants down.
9mm is just faster on recovery between shots, and easier for a lot of people to control.
And that black talon ammo which is what it is with a politically correct bullet is a proven performer.
I sure would not want to get it by any of it.
that stuff is getting close to .38super.

Speaking of Super I love the 45 Super with either a 230 grain XTP or a 255 grain hard cast. Velocity in my pistol is 1130 for the JHP and 1075 for the 255. They hit stuff pretty hard IME.

What would be wrong with a 45ACP+P flat point fmj on hogs when compared to the 40/10mm?

I get a better visual indication of a hit with a 45 VS a 9mm on game and to me that is an advantage of a larger diameter projectile with significantly more mass. I use nothing but +P in 45 ACP. I really like the 45 Super and feel that the 9mm takes a back seat for sure in comparison.

What's the big deal about killin a pig????

�.

I agree with you. 45's going Super speeds would be getting a lot closer to ideal, because you have both mass and energy displacement. I don't worship at the alter of 45acp, and never have. The three standard limitations that stick painfully out when discussing hot 45's are rapid controlled fire with such a powerful recoiling handgun, capacity limitation, and the weight of the rig+ammo. I agree though that the one-shot stats on fast expanding 45's are ideal.

I can precisely shoot a 9mm one-handed with a broken finger. I could not do that with a 45 boomer. I also practice to shoot more than once, regardless of my target, so 1-shot stats aren't very relevant.

My last point: all this discussion of turning humans into bullet fodder is sad to me. The term 'felon' has little meaning in the 21st Century. Statistically, given that the average American is subject to roughly 1,000,000 laws in the 'Land of the Free', nearly all of Americans are committing felonies regularly.

Bluedreaux

"So what are you basing your decision off of, if not studies and statistics?"

Killing things with both. Not people, thank God, but a ton of feral dogs and several car hit deer as a police officer. I'm convinced - with normal self defense handguns, as opposed to specialty handguns that shoot rifle calibers or ultra speed-demon rounds, that mass and penetration is superior to speed and alleged tissue disruption. I don't have to convince you as that's not my place. I simply report my experience.

"Of course the data is based on diverse scenarios, it's hard to get bad guys to pose the same way every time they get shot."

Which is precisely the reason the data is suspect. The vaunted .40 caliber of the 80s has been responsible for significant failures to accomplish that which it was intended to. So has the 9mm and the .45! When the central nervous system is disrupted, it doesn't matter what the caliber or velocity. The problem is precisely that which you state, you can't get the bad guy to pose for you, so you have to be able to draw a direct line from the exterior of the torso, to the target area inside the 3 dimensional being. Those intrepid souls who used to hunt elephants with inferior calibers like the 7mm, understood this. The bullet had to travel in a direct line to the intended spot in the 3 dimensional head. Penetration is superior to tissue disruption with inferior weapons, and most handgun calibers are technically inferior when compared to rifles.

"The rhino / gazelle analogy doesn't hold water, because neither a rhino or gazelle are penetrating my body, expanding and expending energy within me. Basing your decision on a theoretical animal charge is why these discussions are never valuable."

Do you understand the one inch punch? As for expanding, if tissue disruption was your only aim, then expansion is desirable. If reaching the important organs and components of the central nervous system are the key, then expansion is moot.

Why not use a caliber that is both "pre-expanded" and can reach those components?

Maybe nothing has changed with the cartridges themselves, just peoples' impressions of them. They know now that the 9mm isn't an impotent pipsqueak and the .45 isn't the "Hammer of Thor".

Doc: "Bullet mass and momentum can make a difference when you're shooting heavy plates or bowling pins, but I would strongly disagree that they make a difference when shooting lighter reactive targets like plate racks or poppers."

I don't know what poppers you shoot at, but the pepper-poppers I used to shoot wouldn't go down with marginal hits close to the pivot point using the 9mm, but would almost universally go down with the .45 and 230 grain ball. Still, the term "heavy" is telling. If it makes a difference on a "heavy" target, it should provide evidence that there is an element of superiority over a broad spectrum of potential uses.

"As for "lethality", let's be clear: human beings are NOT "reactive targets". They are living, moving, fighting beings whose physiological and psychological and spiritual makeup combines to make something much more complex than the most complex mechanical or reactive range target system."

Can't disagree with that. Wouldn't try to, but as you well know and as I tried to explain to Bluedreaux, albeit clumsily, humans are 3 dimensional targets. You see one dimension, but the target should be considered 3 dimensional. One has to imagine the intended target inside the external surface. We train to shoot center mass on flat targets always facing us perpendicularly, and this is a disservice to our trainees. Depending on what degree of attitude the target is facing us, will present different challenges, not all of which are center mass. Penetration becomes key, over expansion and the theoretical discussion of hydro-dynamics on internal organs.

"I take your "diverse set of scenarios and parameters" statement to mean that you think that the variables in street shootings are so many and so uncontrollable that it is impossible to draw any valid predictions from any sort of study. This is nonsense. The quantity of research on handgun ammunition performance done since the 1986 Miami FBI gunfight is staggering in its volume and scope, and it has resulted in phenomenal performance improvements in not just service caliber ammunition, but all ammunition."

Doc, please use the tern "nonsense" carefully. IF you have been keeping up with the times, you will discover the FBI has almost reversed itself in recent months. It does make one wonder. One of the main things the FBI did discover - and this pertains to all shootouts, regardless the caliber of the weapon being used, is that marginal performance "tactically", cannot be made up for with superior performance "ballistically." But that given all scenarios, we carry one gun. Better it be the one that can deliver mass, deeply into a 3 dimensional being.

"The street shootings data accumulated over the past 25+ years by LE agencies and consortiums in America is pretty clear: there is no appreciable performance difference between 9mm and 45 ACP when using modern JHP ammunition that meets the FBI criteria established in 1987."

Absolutely! And this is largely because there is little difference in the targets, vs the differences in the weaponry. The constant, in all these studies are the intended targets, and the unpredictability of their physical position and attitude at the moment of combat. The 9mm and .40 offer only one advantage over their larger sister, and that is capacity. For some, that is comforting and I'd never try to dissuade them. But the performance of the .45 was the "benchmark" all the other entries were trying to live up to in their quest.

Best to you.

Dan

All I can say is 9mm ball of any kind sucks in combat where it is required (military)

Now the newer critical defense/duty stuff (and more) which civilians can carry bring it to a whole new level.

Is there something in the Geneva Convention that does not allow flat pointed ball FMJ ammo? Seems performance would on live subjects would be much better and still technically be FMJ. Maybe reliability issues or is it against the GC?

The Geneva Convention has nothing to do with munitions, absolutely nothing.
The Hague accord covers munitions, the U.S. is not a signer of The Hague Accord.

The thing is if a civilian picks a cartridge he doesn't feel influenced by how many females will be able to qualify
when they work for a politically correct government agency.

When John Browning designed the 45 caliber pistol for the US government he did so with a 200 gr bullet which would be less recoil and higher velocity than the 230 gr projectile which the government insisted on.
whelennut

my Brother in Law is a retired FEEB. Worked many years in firearms instruction, and worked with the team that brought first the 10MM, and then the .40 S&W into the FBI.
He told me yesterday, that there is serious talk in the FBI to return to the 9MM as the primary duty weapon. And soon.

I was Security forces in the USAF for 21 years. Under normal overseas conditions we are limited to FMJ projectiles. No HP's or plastic tips etc. (Some special forces and certain missions will deviate). The point shape makes no diff but gotta be FMJ overseas. They suck in stopping power. Ask anyone who has been to the sandbox. Now in the US we carried 115 JHP federals.