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but the fine employees said no but we want more money...



They knew, that without money, they'd end up owning and shooting a POS rifle.


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Originally Posted by watch4bear
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but the fine employees said no but we want more money...



They knew, that without money, they'd end up owning and shooting a POS rifle grin
The gun industry typically doesn't pay very well, particularly when considering skill/knowledge required vs other industry. A mans gotta make a living, and deserves to if he works hard at what he does. The unions have been successfully broken over the past 40 years and the American worker makes less and less while all the money ends up in the pockets of upper management and investors. And people wonder why the economy is in the schitter.

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Originally Posted by safariman
Originally Posted by OldBrownDog
Originally Posted by 16bore
I'd bet they are better guns. I'd also bet that if they were built here they way they "should" be, they'd cost twice as much. Hell, there's probably a $400 Winchester on the horizon.


You guessed it.....
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/interactive/firearms/xpr/


WOW, that is sinking to a new low.


If I wanted a POS rifle I'd buy Remington.


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Originally Posted by Blackheart
A mans gotta make a living, and deserves to if he works hard at what he does.r.


So if he works hard but makes a lousy product because he is incompetent....

Or if he works hard and makes a product that no one wants...

He still deserves to be paid well?

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There are lousy guns made no doubt. Some of that comes from incompetent workers but that is largely due to high employee turnaround as workers find they can make more money making yogurt or electrical connectors than guns. The resultant constant influx of new, inexperienced workers, combined with the companies push to send out as many guns as fast as they can while at the same time not wanting to pay for adequate quality control inspection and bingo, junk goes out the door and into your hands. Incompetent workers don't last long anywhere but govt jobs and last I checked there was a HUGE DEMAND for guns. Perhaps If I'd have said "a mans got to make a living and deserves to if he's good at what he does and works hard in an industry with high demand for it's products" it would have satisfied your dumb azz and kept you from asking stupid questions ?

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Why, yes. If you had said that...instead of the stupid comment that you DID make, you would have been correct, and no response would have been needed.

Thank you so much for the clarification.

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I heard yrs ago that majority of the workers at the Ruger plant in Prescott are part time workers. Don't know how true that is though.


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

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Originally Posted by 16bore
I'd bet they are better guns.


Why so, a work force that pays more attention to detail?

I hate they shifted production overseas, especially since I was considering a Model 70. I compared one side by side with a Tikka T3; polar opposites to say the least.


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Originally Posted by 79S
I heard yrs ago that majority of the workers at the Ruger plant in Prescott are part time workers. Don't know how true that is though.
I don't know about that. I do know Ruger offered me a full time job hand checkering stocks @ 6.00 an hour at their NH plant in 1993. Minimum wage was 4.35 an hour at the time and I had been making 11.00 an hour running a forklift in a grocery warehouse. I politely turned down their offer.

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Originally Posted by OldBrownDog
Originally Posted by 16bore
I'd bet they are better guns. I'd also bet that if they were built here they way they "should" be, they'd cost twice as much. Hell, there's probably a $400 Winchester on the horizon.


You guessed it.....
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/interactive/firearms/xpr/


Looks like even the competition knows Tikkas kick ass. All it would take is for a company to put some real twists on their guns and they would be miles ahead.

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Originally Posted by Blackheart
last I checked there was a HUGE DEMAND for guns. Perhaps If I'd have said "a mans got to make a living and deserves to if he's good at what he does and works hard in an industry with high demand for it's products" it would have satisfied your dumb azz and kept you from asking stupid questions ?


Demand goes up, price should do the same. But what we have is demand for schit. Obviously it aint hard to assemble guns. Tolerances are so tight with machinery that there is likely little actual smith work. Look at what Kimber did to the 1911. Used to be you paid $600 for a stock pistol and another $1,000 to make it worth a hoot. Now you get bells and whistles off the rack. It aint 1950 at Winchester anymore. And those rifles are still hard to beat.

A rifle that shoots MOA is no magical feat anymore and its the "seller" of a $400 rifle.


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Originally Posted by 16bore
Originally Posted by Blackheart
last I checked there was a HUGE DEMAND for guns. Perhaps If I'd have said "a mans got to make a living and deserves to if he's good at what he does and works hard in an industry with high demand for it's products" it would have satisfied your dumb azz and kept you from asking stupid questions ?


Demand goes up, price should do the same. But what we have is demand for schit. Obviously it aint hard to assemble guns. Tolerances are so tight with machinery that there is likely little actual smith work. Look at what Kimber did to the 1911. Used to be you paid $600 for a stock pistol and another $1,000 to make it worth a hoot. Now you get bells and whistles off the rack. It aint 1950 at Winchester anymore. And those rifles are still hard to beat.

A rifle that shoots MOA is no magical feat anymore and its the "seller" of a $400 rifle.

Boy are you ever off base about the precision of machinery and lack of need for hand fitting. I hear that all the time and it's pure bunk. Sure you can make a sloppily fit/built thing without much smithing but you'd be surprised at how much hand work still goes into a well built factory piece. The thing is, unless you know exactly what to look for, you won't even be able to tell where hand fitting has been done if it's been done well. You also need to keep in mind that all fitting work is done before polishing/finishing and most all evidence will be removed. Polishing/blending alone takes quite a bit of skill and experience to get really good at it. If your high water benchmark for quality is kimber 1911's you really don't know how to judge.

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Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by 16bore
Originally Posted by Blackheart
last I checked there was a HUGE DEMAND for guns. Perhaps If I'd have said "a mans got to make a living and deserves to if he's good at what he does and works hard in an industry with high demand for it's products" it would have satisfied your dumb azz and kept you from asking stupid questions ?


Demand goes up, price should do the same. But what we have is demand for schit. Obviously it aint hard to assemble guns. Tolerances are so tight with machinery that there is likely little actual smith work. Look at what Kimber did to the 1911. Used to be you paid $600 for a stock pistol and another $1,000 to make it worth a hoot. Now you get bells and whistles off the rack. It aint 1950 at Winchester anymore. And those rifles are still hard to beat.

A rifle that shoots MOA is no magical feat anymore and its the "seller" of a $400 rifle.

Boy are you ever off base about the precision of machinery and lack of need for hand fitting. I hear that all the time and it's pure bunk. Sure you can make a sloppily fit/built thing without much smithing but you'd be surprised at how much hand work still goes into a well built factory piece. The thing is, unless you know exactly what to look for, you won't even be able to tell where hand fitting has been done if it's been done well. You also need to keep in mind that all fitting work is done before polishing/finishing and most all evidence will be removed. Polishing/blending alone takes quite a bit of skill and experience to get really good at it. If your high water benchmark for quality is kimber 1911's you really don't know how to judge.


his point with 1911's was that you used to buy a colt and then send it to a smith so that it was reliable and worth a hoot pretty regular....when Kimber came out all the sudden your chances of having a decent, reliable, accurate 1911 out of the box went WAY up.....hell ill take my $500 Para over mostmass produced 1911's made before Kimber.....yes you would sometimes get a good Colt off the rack but in reading back over most literature from the period just about everyone said if you were serious about your 1911 you bought it and sent it to a smith....out of the box good wasnt that damn common, it is now.....


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You ain't finding a "well built" rifle for $400. You'll find some rough-ass schit that goes bang. Kimbers are schit, but you missed the point.

I believe I was 30,000 rounds into my 38 Super when I quit IPSC in the 90's. Mighta seen some schit get built, rebuilt, and rebuilt again a time or two. Then mighta seen what STI brought to the table. You can polish a turd, but maybe yank a trigger once or twice.


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New Haven died in 1964. The sooner any Winchester maven gets that in his head, the happier he will be. smile

I looked at a few new M70's yesterday.Some were pretty cool..like a 375H&H with a standard barrel contour ( a rare variation in the pre 64 that will set you back 5 figures if you can find one). The stock was well executed,better than any std pre 64, the action was slick and the machine work looked really nicely done. Also a 338 WM EW with fluted SS barrel that was perfect in balance and weight for the chambering. We used to have to build custom to get a 338 of comparable weight/balance in the past. The rifle would make any elk hunter smile.

Sources (smiths) tell me these new actions are among the best ever made for a M70.I can say from a user's perspective the rifles are better built than most any NH Classic.Chances are they will shoot better ,too.

I would not worry about Portugese assembly; Europeans were making guns way before we were. If the Portugese were not good craftsmen then Leica would not build quality optics there.

If you are an old fart who can't live with a MOA trigger (like me) then fine;go Classic or pre 64 and quit bitching grin Things are what they are and our lamentations won't change anything. We can't expect companies to make rifles if they are not making a profit. The world does not work that way. Shut up, spend the money for custom and get what you want.

But if that does not bother you then the new rifles from SC are a good deal.IME they shoot and function with little to no tinkering, are likely better made overall, and are a good product for what they cost.


As to that new cheap rifle on the horizon, what can we expect? Cheap accurate rifles dominate. I would not own one on a bet and Tika's, Salvages and similar crap make me wretch but there is no denying the market demands. frown




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Just read the whole page, am still laughing over the hate for union workers and hate for non-union work. Not that union work is always better, or worse, but does anybody else see how this appears.


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Out the door for opening morning and it is raining. I wonder how many of the pre64 purists will be be out there with their pristine-or not even close-model 70s? Few I'm guessing. They have a rifle that was made to take what comes its' way, but can't bring themself to do so. Heck most want to baby them on nice days.

This currently made example should be perfect for a day like today. It gives them a real beater, tho pretty nice for a truck gun, to get them thru these not so perfect days. They should be thanking Winchester for this option of a pretty good rifle to take out and actually use. One that is familiar in function to their pre 64 and I doubt if it will fall apart in their hands, until the perfect day when they can bring the real deal out to play again.

Well said Bob, but model 70 devotes are an odd crew.


Last edited by battue; 12/01/14.

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Originally Posted by Blackheart
There are lousy guns made no doubt. Some of that comes from incompetent workers but that is largely due to high employee turnaround as workers find they can make more money making yogurt or electrical connectors than guns. The resultant constant influx of new, inexperienced workers, combined with the companies push to send out as many guns as fast as they can while at the same time not wanting to pay for adequate quality control inspection and bingo, junk goes out the door and into your hands. Incompetent workers don't last long anywhere but govt jobs and last I checked there was a HUGE DEMAND for guns. Perhaps If I'd have said "a mans got to make a living and deserves to if he's good at what he does and works hard in an industry with high demand for it's products" it would have satisfied your dumb azz and kept you from asking stupid questions ?


Two great things:

1. No one is forced to buy junk guns.
2. No one is forced to work at any particular job - everyone is free to go elsewhere for a paycheck or to start their own business.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

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Originally Posted by battue
Out the door for opening morning and it is raining. I wonder how many of the pre64 purists will be be out there with their pristine-or not even close-model 70s? Few I'm guessing. They have a rifle that was made to take what comes its' way, but can't bring themself to do so. Heck most want to baby them on nice days.

This currently made example should be perfect for a day like today. It gives them a real beater, tho pretty nice for a truck gun, to get them thru these not so perfect days. They should be thanking Winchester for this option of a pretty good rifle to take out and actually use. One that is familiar in function to their pre 64 and I doubt if it will fall apart in their hands, until the perfect day when they can bring the real deal out to play again.

Well said Bob, but model 70 devotes are an odd crew.



In the last month I�ve sold three rifles and purchased two more. A Ruger American .30-06 went down the road because I couldn�t get it to shoot to my standards, which aren�t particularly stringent. A very nice Ruger #1 in .280 Rem that shot pleasing .5� groups was also sold, only to be replaced by a Ruger All-Weather stainless/synthetic Hawkeye in .280 Rem. Why the change? The All-Weather doesn�t begin to have the eye appeal of the #1 but it suits my hunting needs better. Come next fall Daughter #1 will likely use it on her first elk hunt. If it gets dings and scratches, no problem. Wet weather? No problem there, either.

This last weekend I traded a beautiful Ruger Hawkeye in .300WM that I bought NIB nearly a year ago as a wedding present for a future son-in-law. It was a display model with minor handling marks. Ruger reblued it and replaced the stock with their African stock. It was gorgeous and when the wedding was called off it was mine. Problem was it was destined to be a safe queen and I don�t have room for them in my safe. Furthermore, it was redundant as I already have a .300WM Ruger MKII in the Zytel semi-skeleton stock that shoots great and provides what I want in a hunting rifle. What I traded for was a Ruger Gunsite Scout in .308 Win with a 16-1/2� barrel in blue and laminate dress. The Scout is nothing fancy but it will get used.


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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

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Price is what you pay, value is what you get. That friggin simple.

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