Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The complete transition to Portugal is done

Phase 1



Phase 2

My Winchesters say "made in New Haven Connecticut, U.S. of America." And that's the way it's gonna stay around here.

I will try to buy in the USA in the future if the unions don't screw that up too...

When (if) the M94/22 returns - whether Portugal or Japan in origin, it will definitely hurt the sales of Henry lever 22s. Quality and/or price are always foremost considerations when people part with their money.

Honestly I just picked one up. Made in US, assembled in Portugal. Really nice stock figure/grain, excellent checkering, blueing is fantastic. Not shot it yet cause it's going to become something else but it is a lot nicer than the SC made one I have in 30-06.

Yes, I'd rather they were still a USA made firearm. Once I have the .257 Wby barrel there will be no "Portugal" anywhere on the gun because the action says "MADE IN USA"

Are the individual parts all now made in Portugal as well?

New M70s have been hard to get in this country. Dealers and distributors have been citing this Portugal thing as a reason.

Any supply difficulties over there in the US?

They lost me with the "MOA" trigger... this is just the final nail.

Truth is, I like Portugal a lot, have traveled there, and own a couple Leica products made there... I just have no interest anything marked "Winchester" being made there... like Blackheart, anything I own marked "Winchester" will be from New Haven, Connecticut.

I'd bet they are better guns. I'd also bet that if they were built here they way they "should" be, they'd cost twice as much. Hell, there's probably a $400 Winchester on the horizon.

Hell yes. Same here..

You guessed it.....
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/interactive/firearms/xpr/

Win-tikka, Rem-tikka, Rug-tikka, Thom-tikka....

Tikka's "suck" yet everyone copies. Now they'll be a page full of threads about the new Win vs Tikka.


Where's the Sav-tikka? Kim-tikka?

Wow doesn't even look like like a Winchester.

Damn, Winchester done gone and built a Ruger American. What's next? Kreighoff going to build a Stoeger Uplander?
John

I'll go on record as to admit, I've never said Tikka's suck. They are damn fine accurate rifles, I just like my pre 64's better

+1 Bought one a few weeks ago and am going back to the shop to get its companion chambered in another cartridge in the next week or so.

No comparison, a guy looking for either aint going to be satisfied with the other.

Winchester was an American icon. Sad thing....no matter how good I'll by the old ones thank you...

Can't blame Winchester, its the American way. Plus, there's very little, if any obsolescence in firearms.

WOW, that is sinking to a new low.

I will say it again avg joe blow isn't going to sink 800-2000 grand in a rifle, like some of you big rollers. They see these it fits their need and checkbook... I go to the rifle range and these type of rifles dominate the scene. I think it's good for the industry myself. But some don't think so..as for winchester again thank the union at the new haven plant for the demise of American made winchesters.. For those of you who easily forget FN asked the union to renegotiate the contract they were losing money on the rifles, but the fine employees said no but we want more money...

They knew, that without money, they'd end up owning and shooting a POS rifle.

The gun industry typically doesn't pay very well, particularly when considering skill/knowledge required vs other industry. A mans gotta make a living, and deserves to if he works hard at what he does. The unions have been successfully broken over the past 40 years and the American worker makes less and less while all the money ends up in the pockets of upper management and investors. And people wonder why the economy is in the schitter.

If I wanted a POS rifle I'd buy Remington.

So if he works hard but makes a lousy product because he is incompetent....

Or if he works hard and makes a product that no one wants...

He still deserves to be paid well?

There are lousy guns made no doubt. Some of that comes from incompetent workers but that is largely due to high employee turnaround as workers find they can make more money making yogurt or electrical connectors than guns. The resultant constant influx of new, inexperienced workers, combined with the companies push to send out as many guns as fast as they can while at the same time not wanting to pay for adequate quality control inspection and bingo, junk goes out the door and into your hands. Incompetent workers don't last long anywhere but govt jobs and last I checked there was a HUGE DEMAND for guns. Perhaps If I'd have said "a mans got to make a living and deserves to if he's good at what he does and works hard in an industry with high demand for it's products" it would have satisfied your dumb azz and kept you from asking stupid questions ?

Why, yes. If you had said that...instead of the stupid comment that you DID make, you would have been correct, and no response would have been needed.

Thank you so much for the clarification.

I heard yrs ago that majority of the workers at the Ruger plant in Prescott are part time workers. Don't know how true that is though.

Why so, a work force that pays more attention to detail?

I hate they shifted production overseas, especially since I was considering a Model 70. I compared one side by side with a Tikka T3; polar opposites to say the least.

I don't know about that. I do know Ruger offered me a full time job hand checkering stocks @ 6.00 an hour at their NH plant in 1993. Minimum wage was 4.35 an hour at the time and I had been making 11.00 an hour running a forklift in a grocery warehouse. I politely turned down their offer.

Looks like even the competition knows Tikkas kick ass. All it would take is for a company to put some real twists on their guns and they would be miles ahead.

Demand goes up, price should do the same. But what we have is demand for schit. Obviously it aint hard to assemble guns. Tolerances are so tight with machinery that there is likely little actual smith work. Look at what Kimber did to the 1911. Used to be you paid $600 for a stock pistol and another $1,000 to make it worth a hoot. Now you get bells and whistles off the rack. It aint 1950 at Winchester anymore. And those rifles are still hard to beat.

A rifle that shoots MOA is no magical feat anymore and its the "seller" of a $400 rifle.

Boy are you ever off base about the precision of machinery and lack of need for hand fitting. I hear that all the time and it's pure bunk. Sure you can make a sloppily fit/built thing without much smithing but you'd be surprised at how much hand work still goes into a well built factory piece. The thing is, unless you know exactly what to look for, you won't even be able to tell where hand fitting has been done if it's been done well. You also need to keep in mind that all fitting work is done before polishing/finishing and most all evidence will be removed. Polishing/blending alone takes quite a bit of skill and experience to get really good at it. If your high water benchmark for quality is kimber 1911's you really don't know how to judge.

his point with 1911's was that you used to buy a colt and then send it to a smith so that it was reliable and worth a hoot pretty regular....when Kimber came out all the sudden your chances of having a decent, reliable, accurate 1911 out of the box went WAY up.....hell ill take my $500 Para over mostmass produced 1911's made before Kimber.....yes you would sometimes get a good Colt off the rack but in reading back over most literature from the period just about everyone said if you were serious about your 1911 you bought it and sent it to a smith....out of the box good wasnt that damn common, it is now.....

You ain't finding a "well built" rifle for $400. You'll find some rough-ass schit that goes bang. Kimbers are schit, but you missed the point.

I believe I was 30,000 rounds into my 38 Super when I quit IPSC in the 90's. Mighta seen some schit get built, rebuilt, and rebuilt again a time or two. Then mighta seen what STI brought to the table. You can polish a turd, but maybe yank a trigger once or twice.

New Haven died in 1964. The sooner any Winchester maven gets that in his head, the happier he will be.

I looked at a few new M70's yesterday.Some were pretty cool..like a 375H&H with a standard barrel contour ( a rare variation in the pre 64 that will set you back 5 figures if you can find one). The stock was well executed,better than any std pre 64, the action was slick and the machine work looked really nicely done. Also a 338 WM EW with fluted SS barrel that was perfect in balance and weight for the chambering. We used to have to build custom to get a 338 of comparable weight/balance in the past. The rifle would make any elk hunter smile.

Sources (smiths) tell me these new actions are among the best ever made for a M70.I can say from a user's perspective the rifles are better built than most any NH Classic.Chances are they will shoot better ,too.

I would not worry about Portugese assembly; Europeans were making guns way before we were. If the Portugese were not good craftsmen then Leica would not build quality optics there.

If you are an old fart who can't live with a MOA trigger (like me) then fine;go Classic or pre 64 and quit bitching Things are what they are and our lamentations won't change anything. We can't expect companies to make rifles if they are not making a profit. The world does not work that way. Shut up, spend the money for custom and get what you want.

But if that does not bother you then the new rifles from SC are a good deal.IME they shoot and function with little to no tinkering, are likely better made overall, and are a good product for what they cost.


As to that new cheap rifle on the horizon, what can we expect? Cheap accurate rifles dominate. I would not own one on a bet and Tika's, Salvages and similar crap make me wretch but there is no denying the market demands.

Just read the whole page, am still laughing over the hate for union workers and hate for non-union work. Not that union work is always better, or worse, but does anybody else see how this appears.

Out the door for opening morning and it is raining. I wonder how many of the pre64 purists will be be out there with their pristine-or not even close-model 70s? Few I'm guessing. They have a rifle that was made to take what comes its' way, but can't bring themself to do so. Heck most want to baby them on nice days.

This currently made example should be perfect for a day like today. It gives them a real beater, tho pretty nice for a truck gun, to get them thru these not so perfect days. They should be thanking Winchester for this option of a pretty good rifle to take out and actually use. One that is familiar in function to their pre 64 and I doubt if it will fall apart in their hands, until the perfect day when they can bring the real deal out to play again.

Well said Bob, but model 70 devotes are an odd crew.

Two great things:

1. No one is forced to buy junk guns.
2. No one is forced to work at any particular job - everyone is free to go elsewhere for a paycheck or to start their own business.

In the last month I�ve sold three rifles and purchased two more. A Ruger American .30-06 went down the road because I couldn�t get it to shoot to my standards, which aren�t particularly stringent. A very nice Ruger #1 in .280 Rem that shot pleasing .5� groups was also sold, only to be replaced by a Ruger All-Weather stainless/synthetic Hawkeye in .280 Rem. Why the change? The All-Weather doesn�t begin to have the eye appeal of the #1 but it suits my hunting needs better. Come next fall Daughter #1 will likely use it on her first elk hunt. If it gets dings and scratches, no problem. Wet weather? No problem there, either.

This last weekend I traded a beautiful Ruger Hawkeye in .300WM that I bought NIB nearly a year ago as a wedding present for a future son-in-law. It was a display model with minor handling marks. Ruger reblued it and replaced the stock with their African stock. It was gorgeous and when the wedding was called off it was mine. Problem was it was destined to be a safe queen and I don�t have room for them in my safe. Furthermore, it was redundant as I already have a .300WM Ruger MKII in the Zytel semi-skeleton stock that shoots great and provides what I want in a hunting rifle. What I traded for was a Ruger Gunsite Scout in .308 Win with a 16-1/2� barrel in blue and laminate dress. The Scout is nothing fancy but it will get used.

Price is what you pay, value is what you get. That friggin simple.

battue I schlepped around a FW 270 in the snow and mud last week(one of those "late, undesirable,declining quality rifles" that collectors don't like

But some collector kept it pristine for 40 years, before I bought it a dozen years ago. Redneck stocked it for me in a McMillan and it is the new #1. I hope to make it look really schitty someday but have too many rifles for that to happen. It needs some real abuse.

And that complex. Everyone has different ideas of what is important to them, thus perceived "value" is different for everyone.

Wouldn't be an ironic twist to have them build the new XPR in South Carolina? A little insight here: http://www.rrarms.com/winchester-xpr-270-win-3-24.html

Bob, what Mickey "pattern" did you buy for the stock?

I know some folks go all aflutter over the original M70 trigger, but I have owned several rifles with the new MOA trigger and loved them all after I replaced the factory trigger spring with one from Ernie's Gunsmithing.
AND....
Ruger sells all the American Rifles they can build. That should tell us something?

I'm still trying to decipher what makes a Tikka crap??? If it had a lug attached to the action rather than the stock maybe it would be put to rest? No, the Sako TRG uses the same configuration and barrels and they don't have the crap label for some reason.

+1 if the quality of a T3 is not readily apparent to even a casual observer then don't know what to say.

Clean machining, smooth feeding, sako extractor, adjustable trigger, sako barrel, and tons of aftermarket accessories. All in a lightweight package that flat shoots.

I have owned Savages etc, and they are a crude in comparison.

I think the T3 is a nice rifle though not my preference, and I think they are a smidge over priced.

Love the way they point though, and the excellent trigger and bog-standard accuracy.

I think some of the dis-likers are so because the T3 is not made in the US? I might well be wrong in many cases of course, but as it's the theme of this thread maybe in some cases I'm right too?

Never hear much bitching about Belgium Brownings. But I like Guinness, Toyotas, my last sushi meal was made by a Latino, Shimano reels rule, and I like Tikkas. If a guy wants to drive a Chevy to McDonalds, its OK by me.

Sue me.

And they do go elsewhere frequently. Which is really only a problem for dumbschits like those here who love to whine and bellyache about the poor quality of the guns they buy, made by all the new/inexperienced workers at the gun company.

OldBrownDog - talk about a CLONE...soon you'll have to look real close to see if it's a T3, Axis or RAR...did I miss one? Homesteader

DD I have the Compact Edge on that rifle.....black.

Winchester has turned out some POS rifles over some of the years.

I'd rather buy US. But there is a point that I will go to, RE the cost. And at cost I demand accuracy.

I personally don't care about looks much.

But if the rifle isn't accurate, its not worth a penny to me really...

So there are the demands. Whoever can fill them gets the business of mine. Granted mine is not enough to worry about.

But these days its cheaper to buy a donor action, and have a good barrel put on by a competent smith, rather than pay bigger bucks for a better rifle from a "factory" .

I suspect the market demands and what it will bear have always driven this.

Bingo....better way to go.

Nah, Bob...

I understand where you're coming from, but it just isn't true.

I have an elderly friend who doted for decades on his old model 70s. One in .243 and the other in .270.

In the mid 90s I showed him my then new model 70 classic featherweight in .243 and he was immediately impressed. He was even more impressed when he shot it. Impressed enough that he ordered out and purchased his first centerfire rifle since the early 60s.
He just turned 83, and he still loves his older Winchesters, but the classic featherweight is his shooting pride and joy.

And that is just one side of the New Haven story. I'm not sure when the Winchester 9422 was first built, but I'll stand corrected if it was pre-64. This is a rifle that (arguably)stands alone at the head of it's class. I'd give up all of my CF rifles before I'd part with mine...

John yes, they made a few good guns after 1964.


But the guns that cemented the Winchester reputation,were pretty much all pre 64 Models. The M70, the 52,the 94, the 71,64, M12's and 21's.....all the icons were pre 64's.

The Classic was a decent working gun (I bought two immediately,a 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win Mag SG) when they came out). But they had to irretrievably screw up the M70 before they were dragged kicking and screaming to have David Miller design rifle for them that people would buy again. Even then it was "different" from the pre 64.....MIM extractors, two piece bolts, cast parts,and after awhile very indifferent assembly.

The Classic probably gave me more fits related to sloppy and indifferent assembly than any other class of M70's. So I was never much of a fan unless a really good smith did the required work to the metal to make it work like it should. I was never a real fan because they were a crap shoot and had issues I never saw with any pre 64 i owned,which has been quite a few. I have had good and bad Classics,but never had a "bad" pre 64.

These are the reasons I say NH was never the same after 1964,but you will get as many opinions on this as there are shooters who used the guns from both time frames.

It's 1964 again. I reckon before the 24hr Campfire, guys sat around a wood campfire and had the same conversation about Winchester, except they liked 270's back then. Which is interesting in that it appears Winchester is changing once again for the same reason. And even more interesting, what does that say for the business of building firearms and the folks that buy them? Have consumers always expected more for less? Probably some pretty easy math could tell what a '64 M70 wouldl cost in 2014 dollars.

Have all the good guns already been built? Businesswise, it's an interesting study.

Maybe the answer all along is to just build whatcha want. The expectation of custom built quality and factory built price doesn't seem to pan out. I don't think the target market is here on this thread and further, most here would be considered a niche market. How many are willing to wait a year and spent 2 to 3 times the amount if a factory offering? Not many. But like I said earlier, a lot of fellas want a MOA rifle cause thats as far as their knowledge of rifles goes.

Well into the new millennium, I had several friends who purchased and used model 70 classics with very few issues. If it was a crap shoot, it was no more of an issue than the pre 64 crappy stock work.
I only wish that I had bought a 22-250 FW classic in that time frame. If I find the right rifle, it may yet happen...

Bob,

Damn it quit making sense, it just confuses the issues.

Some need to realize the run of the mill Pre 64 Model 70 isn't an original '67 427 Shelby Cobra, nor will they ever appreciate in value like the Cobra to allow them to live a little larger on the profits. Hit a home run and find a rare one at the right price, ya you can turn a nice profit and pay the light bill for a few years. The rest are better than good working rifles and not much more. For the most part, the people who think the pre 64 70's are the holy grail are dying out and the new generation doesn't look at them in the same way. Right or wrong, that is the fact.

Most here have a couple and don't fall into the classification of collectors.


The have their mystic and rightfully so, but the Mona Lisa they are not.

battue no they are not the Mona Lisa. They were intended to be working rifles and do pretty well in that role.

This schit just keeps getting better and better. What was the topic of discussion again? You lost me at Mona Lisa was an ugly bitch... Was she Portuguese??

If I had to pick one rifle it would be the model 70. Make it right and I could care less where you make it.

Kimber out-Winchestered Winchester, and did it while making them here , but even if Winchester had beat them to the punch, the purists would be whining the receiver wasn't an exact miniature.

Yesterday carried a Kimber, and if you put it into my hands with no markings and I had been away for awhile, think I may have thought it was a model 70? It shoots better than good also.


Addition: Wonder how much bitching went on when W eliminated the clover leaf tang and barrel screw?

A friend purchased one of the 308 Supergrade's.It shoot's cloverleaf's at 100 with factory ammo and the fit & finish is excellent.

Got that straight. I don't know if their scope line has shifted production to Portugal, but the ER I have says made in Germany on the box, whereas some of the ERi's have made in Portugal on the box.

I have 2 classic Winchesters that I used for donors,and a have 2 more that I am doing. I just can't see spending 2 to 3 grand for a pre-64,when I can build a nice custom for that. 3 are 300 RUM's and a 375

Some guys love to collect originals and pre-64's fit that bill,but for me it's not worth it.

I don't see any reason to buy a Portagee Win,unless you what a virgin rifle.

Yes the bew "Portugese" Winchesters are crap,






I bet the same guys here who say they won't buy a model 70 "not completely made in the the US of A, would walk past a Remington 11 for a "Belgian A5

Nice looking , no doubt. But why do we Americans always put up with the [bleep] end of the stick,for offshore corporations? Perot was right.
And the U.S. debt just hit 18 TRILLION on Friday.....yea a F'n chicken in every pot! Or a Portagee Winnie in every hand

I remember when every town had an independent pharmacy and hardware. Why did you sell us out to the big chains? Why you even did it right here onshore.

It's called good ole neo fascism aka part of the big lie.

I will say it again same guys talking [bleep] about these Portuguese made model 70 will end up buying one [bleep] same [bleep] saying buy american are driving foreign made cars lol. All you so called model 70 purists are a real hoot. I will bet a good bottle whiskey BSA will one of the first ones to get one, cause he's the one that talks the most [bleep] lol. Will he tell us probably not... BSA just busting your balls lol

'cause Honkeys won't pay $700 for a $400 rifle. How much would you be willing to pay for a 100% red, white, and blue M70?

Gitem, you hit the Portuguese jackpot with that stock. Real nice.

Photos don't do it justice. I wish the finish was a touch lighter to really bring out the figure. But it's a great rifle

I personally don't mind the look of that new Winchester cheapie. If it shoots and doesn't fall apart on the user, I'd own one. Even better if it lends itself to some customisation.

All well to say it looks like a clone of the RAR or Tikka. Ever noticed the similarities between the M70, M77 and the Kimber? What about the Howa, Vanguard and the M48?

Holy chit! A Tikka with an even uglier stock.

Might be able to sand and paint it to lookin good enough to beat snowy brush and rocks with (if it shoots anywhere near as good as a Tikker...).

Just talked with a landowner here in Pa who is going to die wealthy on the Natural Gas that is about to come out of his ground. He asked the gas company where they put the gas and was told Pa storage is filled up, the majority will be frozen and shipped to China.

Keep your eye on the big problems, like worrying about a few Winchesters being made in Portugal.

I guess I don't subscribe to the "Buy American" ideal simply because I've seen enough of America to know it's not going to be a better product purely by virtue of the worker being American. There are a lot of people in America that simply exist, with no desire to produce. Whether that be as workers, parents, spouses, friends, etc. We are a nation that is quickly slipping in terms of quality of people and value to each other. It used to be that buying American meant getting a better product while supporting your fellow American. Now its just buying a product, most likely inferior in construction relative to price, that was assembled by someone who probably doesn't even have pride in themselves. America is a nation of selfish people who value "more sh:t now" more than "quality in time". We see it in our relationships, government, attitudes...physiques. What makes you think consumer products are immune if we allow that mentality to affect even the way we raise our kids or take care of our bodies? There are plenty of Americans who possess the attitude and drive that are worth supporting, but they are far outnumbered. Until we reverse course as a nation in our attitudes towards value in our work, things, and each other nothing will change.

Some complain about those who buy foreign cars in that the profits go overseas. Winchester isn't an American company any longer, so according to some we shouldn't have been buying them when they were made here.

Stop your making too much sense ... Theses guys talking [bleep] won't know what to think. FN bought winchester back in 1988 when usraco filed for bankruptcy.

America is good at a lot of things, just not everything...

I like reading about all of the POS New Haven guns. I bought a used 416 Rem M70, swapped in an as delivered Williams extractor ($50), sent the bolt to Dan for a bit of TIG ($50) and I worked the trigger a bit. I dropped it into a McM stock (still not bedded) and proceeded to throw multiple three's into 1 1/2" at a 100 using old original 400 gr Barnes softpoints. It feeds and extracts bare brass as fast as I can move the bolt without fault. Still debating if I should bed it...

I think people like the whole 'original' thing, and to be honest, I do too.

The thing is, how do we measure quality? Modern machines regardless of where the machine is situated in the world can produce highly accurate rifles as parts will be made to exact specs. On the other hand we can look at old Rigby rifles that was definitely not remembered for their accuracy (meaning that parts was not made that precise) but were hand made and is supposed to be what some see as top quality. Which of the two is better quality then?

I am one of those people that would rather tinker with an 'original' rifle and make it more or less as accurate as something modern (it is kind of rewarding)

Pieter

If the mood strikes I'll take any of them regardless of place of origin.

Father of a girl I used to date collected Winchesters. By that I mean he was seeerious about it, in that his goal was at least one nice example of each model. With 70s he had a bunch of configurations and cartridges. With 12s he had the same in gauges and configurations. I doubt he is still at the game, but if so I would suspect he would have to have a Portugal Model 70.

Think about it, the only original is serial number 1.

Today, I think a combination of both. Toss in basic design, materials, quality of parts,and construction (assembly in particular). I have seen a fair number of rifles that refused to shoot and function well due to poor assembly than many other issues....meaning they had enough wrong when they were put together that they did not shoot their best, or work as they should.

As to function, Phil Shoemaker did a side bar article on this referring to it as the "Final 10%",or something like that, the finishing touches many rifles do not get that take them from just OK to great.

Some of this is understandable since makers can't sell us rifles for a grand or so with all these final touches and hands on tweaking...some we have to do ourselves. We know all about it from the accuracy standpoint because we pay accuracy smiths to square up receivers to barrels, re turn action threads,bed stocks and other stuff like that.

All this stuff costs money. Problem is a lot of us expect this with any factory rifle just because we pay $800 bucks for it and expect to get it all. Inexpensive rifles are more accurate today than they used to be but accuracy is half the story in a real quality rifle. Hard to get it all for little money.

With the current bic rifle trend that is becoming more prevalent with American manufactures, that Portugal 70 may be a future cherished classic of how they used to make them.

These just may be the good old days.

"Bic Rifle"! LMAO!

Were the latest 70's that came out of Columbia SC that bad or did they just pull up and go to Portugal for the cheaper labor rates?

Oldelk: Damned if I know what's going on....I owned 4 and shot a 5th and they all shot great,functioned perfectly and were eager to please.

But this was within the first year or two of production in SC... maybe things have slipped I don't know.

Reason I ask is that CDNN has a pretty good inventory of 70's(Columbia SC) in inventory...ultimate shadows,featherweights.sporters and super grades that are pretty tempting. I had a 308 for a bit and it was a very nice gun.

I like it too!

I think a new Campfire term can be added to our lexicon...

Well if they chambered something I wanted I sure would not be afraid to buy one...which is the only reason I don't still have those I bought.

Too much duplication of cartridges but it wasn't because they did not work and shoot well.



Ingwe: I'm still chuckling over that one! This place is like a Saturday Night Live skit.

Gotcha

Quote Of The Month Award Winner...

Been discussed before the #1 reason the qc the stocks winchester was getting was bad they don't make their own stocks they outsourced it. From what i heard it was Boyd stocks but who knows how true that is. Anyhow because winchester was returning more stocks to the company making them they fell behind in production the whole time the model 70 was being made in South Carolina winchester was always behind production. So the head mofo at the Portugal plant same plant that makes the high end browning shotguns said we will make the stocks and move production over here. The Europeans don't really have that made in my country type pride like Americans do. So FN decided to shift production I think 2013 was the last year of sc made model 70's.

The flipside to that is the vaunted Kimber not a cheap rifle by any measure. But how often do we hear about the "tinkering" that is almost obligatory with Kimbers to make them accurate.

That would make sense. I've seen a couple of Super Grades that clearly had the stock layout wrong. One was a .300 and it was a nice piece of wood, but likely to break at the wrist.

I just bought an SC Super Grade in 7mm mag from a relative, and it is a very attractive rifle. I'm told it shoots well, too.

FN is so big and I doubt that Portugal is any better then SC or for that matter any other place they choose to manufacture.

Economies of scale or just plain downsizing.

that large sucking sound continues.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-04/oh-portugal